(Please do not clutter this with off-topic comments. Please do not say that I am obviously on drugs.)

Obviously, people on drugs can commit violent crimes.

Obviously, people can hurt themselves with drugs.

Guns are the same way.

There are known cases of people using drugs without hurting anyone. If you think that responsible gun use should be legal, then why don't you think that responsible drugs use should be legal? Why not legalize drug use, and punish only those who use irresponsibly? Like with guns?

Are you high?? [smoke]  [smoke]



No such thing as a victomless crime.  Most drug use ends up hurting someone somewhere.












I tried...but my fingers resisted[:D]

Sgtar15

All drugs should be legal.

I think it's time to leagalize. 15 or so years of the Drug Wars, and what has it gotten us? Vastly increased police powers, ridiculous sentences for trivial crimes, and no decrease in drug use. You can still buy any drug you want on the street corners, and virtually everybody knows it. The whole concept is wrong. The drug market is demand-based - as long as people want drugs and are willing to pay whatever it takes to get them, people will sell them. I know lots of people who have used various drugs. Some are loser potheads, some are smarter then me.

I don't think it's real likely to happen, though. The main enemy is Suzy Soccermom, who will do ANYTHING to avoid having to take responsibility for the behavior of her children. Better ban those drugs, or else I might have to actually teach my children something! Then there's the police, many of whom will lose their jobs with no drug crimes to investivate. Entire agencies will vanish, and the police will lose some of their power. They will resist all of these things. Would the government actually give back the money they've been spending on the Drug War, thus losing control of billions of dollars? Doubt it.

I truely wonder how many people that think drugs don't harm we are also drug users themselves. [:\]

Sgtar15

There is such thing as a victimless crime. For example, the peaceful possession of a post-94 hi-cap magazine.

People should be allowed to hurt themselves if they choose.

All drugs should be legal.

Well then by your logic we should ban alcohol. Oh wait a minute we tried that and we all know how well it worked.

Really??

Pot maybe, but even that often leads to lost productivity on the job.  Other harder drugs are very often violent by nature.  I have seen and met many people on heroin, crank etc that always turn violent either towards themselves or others.  Weather drugs are legal or illegal the hard core users will invarably turn to crime to get there fix simply because the drugs are so addictive.  

I will ask you directly. If you truely think drugs are harmless then are you a drug user yourself?

I am guessing you are in your early to mid 20's, single, white, and a pot head.  Am I correct?

Sgtar15

PS

LOL..That's pretty funny...I guess I am still detoxing from my teen years[;)].

Sgtar15

banning drugs cause more crime than legalizing them would. Do you know how much corruption and social ills the drug war has caused? The bottomline is you can't legislate these things, it has to be an individual choice.

Philadelphia_GunMan,

Alcohol is large and by far the most abused and causes the most problems of all the other drugs combined.  Think about it.

Sgtar15

sgtar15, I will ask you a question directly. Do you drink ?

If so lay off of people who want to get high. They aren't hurting anyone.

Where was sgtar15 coming down on people who want to get high?

No I do not drink or use drugs.  I also don't care if anyone elses does, it's there business.  [b]However, I get tired of hearing people claim that drug use (including alcohol) is completely harmless because it is a lie!![/b]

Drinking and driving kills a lot of people, a lot of people get very violent when drunk.  Hell watch any [b]COPS[/b] show and see the large percentage of violent crimes committed as a result of alcohol alone.  How can anyone in the right mind deny this??

Sgtar15

LotBoy is only high on Life!

... Wrong. Tobacco is! Think about it.

Legalize drugs? No.

Marijuana - decriminalize; a small fine for doing, bigger fine for selling, jail for selling to minors (like selling booze to kids).

Heroin, LSD, Meth, Crack, etc - Not legal.

Why?

Same reason we have building codes for housing construction, food-safety standards for restaurants, water-cleanliness guidelines for municipal water supplies, speed limits on roads,  DUI laws, etc... public safety. (and spare me the "those who trade liberty for security" BS, it doesn't fly with me on those examples)

The addictive properties of "hard" drugs, where people will sell their babies for $20 of crack, are beyond comparison. You can't compare hard drugs to liquor, nicotine or guns.  They are not victimless addictions. Therefore, for public safety, "hard" drugs should not be legal.

Dude you totally need to just like smoke a joint and chill out man.[:)]

When he said "No such thing as a victomless crime. Most drug use ends up hurting someone somewhere."

By that logic most people who drink are hurting someone somewhere.

Drug use is never *always* victimless... if it could be so absolutely, sure then, let people do whatever they want.  Because it's not, society has a right to regulate it.  If drugs didn't effect (and impair) people, they wouldn't take them.  Duh!  

Still think it'd be cool to let people drink/drug and drive after they've taken out your grandmother, those kids in the crosswalk, or your dog?

It'd make you want to flip out!

Legalize drugs, Yes!

Tax the sales.

Use the taxes for drug rehab.

I stand corrected, very good point.

Sgtar15

I will answer you honestly if you edit out the clutter and off-topic comments from your posts. With that clutter in there, I don't take you seriously.

Philadelphia_GunMan: I would agree with him. If done in moderation it is fine to have a drink, or smoke some weed, or trip out on acid, or roll on X,  and you will not hurt anyone but yourself. The problem is that most of the time (with the exception of alcohol) this is not what people do. People do not smoke a little bit of weed to get a tiny buzz. They get STONED. People who take acid take it to trip, the harder the better. Some people drink alchohol to get drunk but most don't, they enjoy it in moderation.


Chances are if you drink to get drunk you have hurt someone somewhere.

[):)]

LOL...You are [b]way[/b] to easy to mess with...LOL

Victimless??  Try telling that to the doctors and nurses who have to try to keep a baby alive that was born to a Mom on crack. Tell that to the people who get their homes robbed by someone looking to sell your stuff for a fix. Tell that to the parents of the kid who just died from a drug overdose.

Tell it to them. Just don't tell it to me.

BTW- Been there, done that, and was lucky enough to live through it.

I have been advocating this for years. If someone want's to kill themselves slowly with drugs good for them. As soon as they do anything that endangers others while under the influence they die. No other possible punishment. You wanna do coke all day long good for you, you get behind the wheel and get pulled over and are found to be under the influence(this should include alcohol, and mary jane)and you are found guilty, you die! Responsibile use should never be punished.

You want to talk about violence?  Go hang out in a popular bar one night and check out all the bouncers. Why do you think they are there?  Couldn't be because people like to fight when they are drunk.... Nahh, never happens. Then go home and watch a few episodes of "COPS" and take special notice how many people who are drunk are also belligerent and hostile towards police.

Alcohol destroys more homes and is a contributing factor in more domestic violence cases than pot is or many other drugs.

Drunk driving kills more people every year than stoned driving does.

Alcohol is extremely addictive hence organizations such as AA.  Oh, and what's that?  It's so addictive they actually call it a disease!!  "Alcoholism".  Never heard of "Potism" or "Cokism".

So if "hard core" drug users (Psst, alcohol is a drug) will turn to crime to get their fix, then the same logic should apply to alcohol.

I'm sick and tired of paying for this mindless "drug war" which does nothing but give excuses to politicians to pass more and more restrictive legislation which in turn strips our freedoms away at a dizzying pace.

In Michigan they just passed a law which allows police to get "secret warrants".  They don't have to specify what they are searching for or even make the warrants public (or the seized items).  Totally unconstitutional, but it's now the law.  Why?  Because it's to help fight the "war on drugs".

Many gun laws are passed (such as the assault weapons ban) because politicians claim "gang bangers" (see drug lords) use them to butcher police.  

Try traveling carrying $10,000 in cash.  In many states you'll LOSE your money without due process just because it *MIGHT* be drug money.  

If the government legalized drugs and taxed the hell out of it, then the market would drop out from under the criminal elements and legit businesses would crop up.  The inner city drug problems would almost immediately cease to exist.  Then drug users would be carrying the tax burden (like other drug users do; tobacco and alcohol users) which would free up BILLIONS of dollars.

The drug war only makes sense to politicians and police agencies looking to get huge budget increases... and to justify their own existence.

We're paying HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to imprison petty drug offenders.  Hell, you'll get more time in prison for bringing a kilo of coke in the country than you will for killing someone.  Absolute stupidity... especially when alcohol is sold legally and is FAR more "mind altering" when consumed in irresponsible quantities.

The point of this post?  All I ask is that we be consistent in our laws.  If alcohol is legal then it's totally stupid to ban other drugs which aren't any more destructive or habit forming (or what-ever excuse you use to justify their illegality).

I've never done, nor do I ever plan on doing, any drugs other than some light social drinking of alcohol.
I could support the legalization of marijuana, just make driving under the influence illegal, and have age limits, like with alcohol

A quote from [url]http://www.madd.org/news/0,1056,4163,00.html[/url]

[b]Preliminary traffic death statistics released by the Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) show virtually no change in the number of alcohol-related traffic fatalities from the year 2000.  The percentage of alcohol-related traffic fatalities remained the same at 40 percent, and the number of people who died in alcohol-related crashes decreased by one from 16,653 in 2000 to 16,652 in 2001
[/b]

Yes MADD is a little over zealous, but there stats come from NHSTA.  Remember, I don't care about anyone how drinks, but drinking is hardly a victomless crime, and these stats are just related to driving!!

Sgtar15

How about the kids that are born that have all sorts of birth defects due to their mother drinking like a fish or chain smoking.

Are you saying no one has ever been robbed because some guy needed a drink or wanted a pack of cigarettes?

Humm, never knew anyone who died from a drug overdose, unless you count the two kids in my high school who died from alcohol poisoning or the nine who died drunk driving in my four years there.  

What do we tell these parents?  "At least they weren't stoned on pot when they died"?  Perhaps, "it could have been worse, they could have been crack heads".

If our multi-billion dollar drug war is to save the children, then why do we sell liquor on every street corner?

Now, if you want alcohol banned then I can see the logic in your position.  You haven't said if you're for or against the legal sale and consumption of alcohol though, so I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

I agree totally.  Either that, or ban alcohol too.

Well, it's probably a bad idea to ban alcohol again since the first attempt was as disastrous as our current drugs laws have proven to be.

Just think, if prohibition hadn't taken place the original ban on machineguns wouldn't have passed, or been an issue.  Prohibition gave rise to the Mob and as such the ensuing violence (much like we see with modern gangs) prompted radical gun laws.

What ever we do, we need to be consistent... which currently we're not.

You're absolutely right!  Drunk driving kills thousands of people a year in this country.  It also accounts for an incredible number of health problems.  Plus, more homes are broken and more lives are destroyed by this legal drug than many realize... but I don't hear calls for a new prohibition.  Why is that?

Why are those who are so tenaciously opposed to the legalization of other drugs so apathetic towards the #1 legal killer drug in America?

Never heard of sex in the 50's, wonder how my parents had me?

Obviously you have never done acid or shrooms. [:)]


Cocaine is not addictive? That's news to me. 'scuse me guys I gonna go do some PCP in the privacy of my own home and not hurt anyone. LOL

William, granted, alcohol claims it's share of victims also, just as does tobacco. I don't know the answers, and as the father of three children, this scares the hell out of me. Maybe I'm more against drugs than alcohol because I never lost a friend to alcohol, but I watched two friends die due to drugs.  I hope someone can reach a solution that we all can [i]live[/i] with.

Pregnant lady on crack could be covered by laws against aggravated assault.

That would be covered by laws against robbery.

Would you want to outlaw swimming pools too?

Simple rule, you start the shit, you deal with what you get.  It gets too personal, I deal with it.

Couldn't tell ya.  :)  I've seen pictures on the net though... looks painful.  :)

You're right, I haven't.  But I do know they are pretty powerful and are considered "hallucinogens".  Regardless, I wasn't talking about such drugs.  The most common drugs are pot, cocaine and some of the newer designer drugs such as X.  

I've tried pot, didn't care for it. I was a dumb kid, what can I say?  I'm not a smoker either though.  I did try a dip once, damn near made me puke.  I was so dizzy I couldn't stand up... from one little dip.  Hell, 6 beers can't even do that to me.

Coke?  I thought I had never encountered it until I moved to the Chicago area.  Now I realize I could have been around people all along who were using it and I wouldn't have known.  The first time I found out a guy was using coke I was amazed.  He got fired for it actually... popped on a piss test.  But I never realized he was on it.  He was articulate, rational, calm.... intelligent.  I can't say the same for the drunks I've worked with in my life.

After doing some research online I discovered the method by which cocaine gets people "high".  It causes your body to release large amounts of dopamine (natural chemical your body produces).  It's this addiction to dopamine which in turn makes coke so addictive.  Unlike alcohol the effects of cocaine quickly wear off (30 minutes or so).  It also numbs nerves and quickly enters the blood stream.

Never said it wasn't addictive.  I said it's no more addictive than other legal drugs, namely alcohol.  Let's keep this in perspective.  :)

And if you want to poison your brain by doing PCP in the privacy of your own home, who am I to stop you?  I don't care what you do [b]in the privacy of your own home[/b].  I thought in a free society we didn't care what people did as long as it doesn't harm someone else.

We let people get stupid drunk and own guns.  Hell, in the privacy of your own home you can get stupid drunk and do anything you want with a gun.  Isn't that dangerous?  

I know where you're coming from.  I had a close friend commit suicide over a girlfriend who was cheating on him.  If he weren't drunk (depressant) he probably wouldn't have done it... but who knows.

I've also lost friends in drunk driving accidents over the years...

I don't know what laws can be passed to stop people from being stupid or hurting themselves.  I think perhaps the answer is we are ultimately responsible for our own actions.  If I use drugs and kill myself, is it the drugs fault?  I think it's the persons fault as they are the ones who make that decision.  Unfortunately we must all live with it while they get off easy... they die but those left behind must deal with the pain and the loss.

I also lost two friends to motorcycle accidents.  They were riding too fast and being dangerous.  Is it the fault of the manufacturer that the bikes can do 4x's the legal speed limit or is the fault of the people who push them that far?  I don't think it's any secret such speed is extremely dangerous... but [b]they[/b] made the decision to do it.

We as gun owners remind the anti's that guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.  If such logic applies to one inanimate object, then the same logic would dictate it should apply to another (drugs).  Drugs don't kill people, people kill people.

I don't mean to trivialize your losses either, I know how hard it can be to loose people close to you.

In the end William, I can only hope that we teach our children well, and they learn to accept responsibility for their own actions, and choose wisely.

That's so true.  I always feared having to raise a child in the world today.  Man, there are so many mistakes, FATAL mistakes, that can be made.

Driving... man, the first time you give the keys to your child... the fear you must feel.  I wouldn't be able to sleep until they were home again.

Drinking... it's everywhere.  I got drunk the first time when I was 13 years old.  We found it in the house and decided to give it a try... heck, our parents did it so it couldn't be that bad, right?   And yes, in high school I drove drunk on more than one occasion and I wasn't what you would consider to be a "problem child" either.

Sex... when our parents were growing up the most they had to worry about was getting pregnant or needing a shot of penicillin.  Today sex can kill you.  You *know* that's going to happen...

The drugs... bad news all the way around.  It has all of the problems of alcohol plus the criminal element.  Sure, they can over dose or become addicted to drugs (or alcohol), but with drugs they have to deal with criminals to get them.  Not good... and our laws contribute to this danger.  If drugs were legal and sold through legal channels (like alcohol), then you have SOME measure of protection.  You know, carding and such.

Anyway, I know why you're concerned and I share that concern.  But unfortunately I think the drug war increases the danger to our children more than it protects them.

The scary part is that there is no telling what someone may be taking. Down here, the latest thing is a concoction that contains pool chemicals, and lithium from batteries.  WTF????  Where's the FDA when you finally need 'em??

I think people should look at this from a realistic point of view, not a moralistic point of view.
Whether you like it or not, people are going to use drugs.  If they can't get them easily from a legal source, as people can with alcohol, they will get them from an unlicensed criminal dealer.
If we don't want gangsters on the streets selling drugs tax-free, we should make a legal avenue for people to obtain drugs.  This would cut the rug out from under illegal dealers, increase the purity and safety of doing drugs, and there could be a way of regulating the toxicity of the drugs, as in limiting the alcohol content of beer.
Prohibition of alcohol created the ganster, legalizing alcohol made the ganster move to other ways of supporting himself.
If we want to reduce drug crime, make a crime-free way for users to obtain it.
There should be penalties for being a known drug addict, however, like maybe a "Drug Addict ID card" you would have to show to buy your fix.

Maybe we could apply the four rules of safe gun handling to safe drug use.  Anbody want to take a crack at them? (heh-heh)



RULE I: ALL DRUGS WILL ALWAYS GET YOU LOADED

RULE II: NEVER USE A DRUG ON BRAIN CELLS YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGERS OFF THE DRUGS UNTIL YOUR OUT OF SIGHT OF ANY TARGETS

RULE IV: BE SURE OF WHO AND WHAT IS "DOWNRANGE" OF YOUR INTENDED DRUG USE

[:D]

That's right, because if I put a tele-stock on my Post-ban, my neice would be victimized by my felonious actions.

[whacko]

What really torques my ass is that the laws that were originally implemented to go after "drug lords" are being used against everyone.  This search and seizure crap that we all bitch about started with the war on drugs.  

NYC has even started confiscating cars for DUI and reckless driving.  GOD help you get your car back even if you are found not guilty.  

If I had kids to worry about, I would get the facts on the medical dangers of drugs, and I would tell my kids the facts. I would discuss one drug at a time: its addictivity, potential for overdose, and health complications.

I would stay away from the simple-minded "just say no" propoganda, because kids are too smart for that.

Show them the scary truth you can find about drugs. That's all you can do, because drugs will be available, whether legalized or not.

The fallout from drug prohibition can be a greater threat than drugs themselves. Education can protect people from drugs, while little can protect us against searches, seizures, and cross-fire from drug dealers meeting the demands of a black market.

I think if they started the kids out young, teaching drug use will make you like Homer Simpson, there would be no illicit drug use.