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Posted: 9/1/2004 1:25:43 PM EST
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:27:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?



Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:28:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them?


yes, they are weak


Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Pity?


absolutely not, it's their own damned fault.


Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Is it their own damned fault? ?


see above.


Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
A disease?


nope.


Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
left out to reap what they have sown?



exactly.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:30:29 PM EST
It is there own damn fault, however if someone REALLY REALLY wants to get free of drug addiction, then I al all for helping them out. I do pity them in the sense that I feel sorrow for the life that is being destroied.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:30:31 PM EST
leave the drugees out to dry, people on any kind of government help i.e. housing, foodstamps, unemployment, they should all get urinalysis test and if failed cut the benefits.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:31:06 PM EST
I got severe back pain sometimes but, I don't take any pain drugs.

I got 4 kids that can drive me batty sometimes but, I don't take any drugs.

I worry about my wife but, I don't take any drugs.

I used to work 80 hrs a week and I didn't take any drugs.

Drugs, to change your mood/state of mind, are for the weak/losers.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:31:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 1:32:29 PM EST by Dolomite]
Isn't this place (or the internet et al ) a form of drug for some?

I'm all for giving them a few cracks at treatment and counseling before they're crushed beneath the pile of righteous stone in ye olde towne square.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:31:43 PM EST
We are all "addicted" to one thing or another, more or less. How many people do you know that aren't worth a shit until they've had that first cup of coffee and smoke in the morning. How about the guys that like a few beers in the evening to "relax" after a hard days work. I think the bottom line is "How does it effect your daily life?" I don't have a problem with people doing drugs as long as they can still function on a daily basis and they don't let it get in the way of doing their jobs.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:36:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them?



Yes. It's a weakness of their own creation. A lifestyle choise.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:39:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
I got severe back pain sometimes but, I don't take any pain drugs.

I got 4 kids that can drive me batty sometimes but, I don't take any drugs.

I worry about my wife but, I don't take any drugs.

I used to work 80 hrs a week and I didn't take any drugs.

Drugs, to change your mood/state of mind, are for the weak/losers.




Oh, really. What about all the people with Manic/Depresion that are helped with Lithium? What about other drugs that are used, with great success I might add, for depression? Are these people "loosers" or "weak" for having an illness?
Also, as far as Altering your State of Mind, when is the last time you've had a chocolet bar, that altered your mood, how about a cup of coffee, that's a mood altering substance, beer, wine, whiskey, that'll really alter your mood and just see what happens when someone doesn't get a smoke for a few hours, their mood is really altered, not from having the drug, but from NOT having it.
Some people explore by hiking the back country or looking thru a telescope others explore the mind by using certain substances that alter the perceptions, to each his own.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:42:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
I got severe back pain sometimes but, I don't take any pain drugs.

I got 4 kids that can drive me batty sometimes but, I don't take any drugs.

I worry about my wife but, I don't take any drugs.

I used to work 80 hrs a week and I didn't take any drugs.

Drugs, to change your mood/state of mind, are for the weak/losers.




Oh, really. What about all the people with Manic/Depresion that are helped with Lithium? What about other drugs that are used, with great success I might add, for depression? Are these people "loosers" or "weak" for having an illness?
Also, as far as Altering your State of Mind, when is the last time you've had a chocolet bar, that altered your mood, how about a cup of coffee, that's a mood altering substance, beer, wine, whiskey, that'll really alter your mood and just see what happens when someone doesn't get a smoke for a few hours, their mood is really altered, not from having the drug, but from NOT having it.
Some people explore by hiking the back country or looking thru a telescope others explore the mind by using certain substances that alter the perceptions, to each his own.



All drugs such, legal and otherwise. If your depressed do something about it. Don't take a stupid pill. Either get over it or kill yourself. Drugs are just a lazy alternative for weak minded people.
Plain and simple.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:42:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:42:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 1:42:43 PM EST by MudBug]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them?



Yes. It's a weakness of their own creation. A lifestyle choise.





As someone with 10 years Clean and Sober, that had some problems with some pretty nasty stuff. I agree. It was a problem I created, a weakness in my character, choices I made led me to the hell I was in.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:43:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 1:44:39 PM EST by tc6969]
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:48:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
I got severe back pain sometimes but, I don't take any pain drugs.

I got 4 kids that can drive me batty sometimes but, I don't take any drugs.

I worry about my wife but, I don't take any drugs.

I used to work 80 hrs a week and I didn't take any drugs.

Drugs, to change your mood/state of mind, are for the weak/losers.




Oh, really. What about all the people with Manic/Depresion that are helped with Lithium? What about other drugs that are used, with great success I might add, for depression? Are these people "loosers" or "weak" for having an illness?
Also, as far as Altering your State of Mind, when is the last time you've had a chocolet bar, that altered your mood, how about a cup of coffee, that's a mood altering substance, beer, wine, whiskey, that'll really alter your mood and just see what happens when someone doesn't get a smoke for a few hours, their mood is really altered, not from having the drug, but from NOT having it.
Some people explore by hiking the back country or looking thru a telescope others explore the mind by using certain substances that alter the perceptions, to each his own.



Well, I thought we were talking drugs like grass/coke or speed, but I understand psychotropics for severe mental disorders are needed.

I have plenty to be depressed about. I was diagnosed with a severe neurological disease a couple years ago, but I did not lock myself up in a room or start popping pills. Yes, the diagnoses had an effect on me, but it just gave me the will to fight harder.

To each his own.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:49:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By tc6969:

Are these people "loosers" or "weak


Those Loosers need to tighten up




Somehow, I knew you'd be right along....
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:50:42 PM EST
Depends on the person. Some I really pity, some I don't feel a bit sorry for. A lot of it boils down to the chances they've had in life, and what they did with them.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:51:47 PM EST
Drug addiction is pathetic. It starts out as a crutch for reality and evolves into a dependency, something they can't through the day without. If they at least have the balls to admit they have a problem and seek treatment, then that's commendable because at leat they're admitting they fucked up and that they want to fix the problem.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:55:39 PM EST
Reality is for people that can't handle Drugs.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:03:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 2:05:45 PM EST by topjimmy]

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?



Depends on how they are as to whether I look down on them. Some of them are extremely pitiable. It is their own fault. I don't believe it's a disease but a character flaw. They should not be spoon fed.


Tweakers and crackheads are dangerous. I hate fucking tweakers.

Potheads barely get by because all they want to do is burn out. But they can usually function, they're good for making a career out of McDonald's, Jiffy Lube or the carwash. Some marijuana users do very well (executives, doctors, lawyers) but I consider them casual users, not potheads. You'd be surprised how many productive members of society use pot occaisionally. Potheads seem to aim really low, although that may be more a function of their personality type than the drug itself.

People who use designer drugs are usually hipsters. I think most probably grow out of it if it doesn't kill them first. Not too many 40 year old ravers out there.

Then there's the junkies. There is nothing more pathetic than a junkie. Watching a junkie go through withdrawls is one of the most disgusting things you can see. There's nothing like watching a grown man whine and cry like a 3 year old.

One time I had to go to the ER with a junkie because he was dehydrated and they could not get a line in him. I watched nurses and medics try dozens of times without success. He cried about the pain, he begged for painkillers and methadone. He threw up over the side of the bed instead of in the bedpan because he couldn't find the bedpan even though it was laying right next to him. One of the nurses finally got a line in him, and he knocked it out when he was thrashing around. So a doctor had to put an arterial line in. Apparently he had spent months in the hospital before due to an infection that occured because of the heroin use. The nurse asked him if he was going to quit this time and he said "I'll try". Yeah right.



Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:04:29 PM EST



Beat me to it.

I know people that have been smoking dope every day for I don't even know how long and they hold respectable professional and social positions.

I know people that have gone nowhere because they smoke dope every day.

Drug dependency is a matter of the individual.

My GF's brother in KY is an Oxycontin fucking junkie addict and steals anything he can move by himself. I've never met the man but I know what he looks like and if he walked in front of my truck I'd hit him and deal with the consequences.

We've already tried getting him help. Two weeks after he's out he's got a fucking needle in his arm again. Hopeless.

I had friends in St. Louis that completely destroyed their lives with cocaine. Not even crack.
I know others that tried it out, had some fun with it and walked away from it, never to touch it again. (like me)

Again, some are weak, others are strong. I pity the weak-and have little tolerence for them.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:08:23 PM EST
Mankind has been using Drugs or one kind or another for Thousands of years. Some were even revered as "Sacared" or "Holy" by the tribes/people that used them. Alcohol is a drug, so is nicotine and caffenie and when you get right down to it, everything that we take into our bodies is a "drug" in one way or another. Only in the last 100 years has "Drugs" become a bad thing. Before that people did what they did and paid for it or lived with it but you didn't get locked up for it. Shamans have used various drugs for thousands of years to alter their perception so they can see into the "spirit" world. Salvia Divinorum is one of those drugs, it is legal and has no ill side effects, the Mazetec Indians have used it for generations with no ill effect on their comunity. That's because it's used in the proper setting and for the right purpose, not as a substance to "just get high" with. Part of problem with making a drug illegal is that with time people forget the proper use of that drug so that problems arise when it is used by people that don't know what they're doing. Part of the reason that our minds have evolved the way that they have is because of drugs and their "enlightning" effect that they have on our consiousness. Many great poets, writers, musicans and thinkers were drug users. Edgar Allen Poe, Sir Aurther Conen Doyle, Byron, Shelly, Louie Armstrong, Most Rock n' Roll musicians, were, are and will continue to be drug users. To just throw a blanket statement on something is just plain wrong. Some people can't handle drugs and shouldn't use them, some use them all of their lives without any problems what so ever. Let the buyer beware, your mileage may vairy.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:12:13 PM EST
Sorry, but I think drug users should use more drugs and drunks should drink more. The sooner they remove themselves from the gene pool the better off the rest of us are. Screw them. How about some focus on those of us that are doing everything right and contributing to society??? Phuck 'em.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:12:16 PM EST
Junkies are weak and useless.

People that get hooked do so because the pain of life is too much to face...guess what assholes, theres a lot of pain in the world, get used to it.

oh...and obesity isnt a disease...its a by product of ingesting more calories than you burn...its called math, look into it.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:15:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 2:16:58 PM EST by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By topjimmy:
You'd be surprised how many productive members of society use pot occaisionally.



My experiance is that nearly everyone that is not drug tested at work uses weed occasionally, and that most people 16- 35 use it regularly.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:18:14 PM EST
Sticky situation b/c they are breaking laws, are stupid, but end up being a burden on (and danger to) everyone else. I worked for a while with the federal judge handling the cartel cases and it REALLY opened my eyes to the breadth of the mess. I haven't met an LEO who did not have a ton of respect for this judge (I pray he makes it to the supreme court), so you know he's not a panty-waist. We had to have marshall escorts everywhere with K9s.

It would help if we could seal the border, but...
It would help if we could clean out the death row waiting list, and properly assign capital punshment to more deserving vermin, therby making more room for non-violent criminals, but...
It would help if we could take the fight to the producers, but...

That said, good judges make the call on enforced treatment options, but bad ones hand it out way too much to non-deserving candidates. Plus, the difference in enforcement in middle/upper class homes is ridiculous. There needs to be hard core convictions, with standing consequences.

In a class I helped teach at a UC, almost 90% of the kids in the anonymous class survey had smoked weed, and over 50% had taken extasy or other harder drugs. The chances of these kids getting convicted, even if caught, are almost zero, and they understand that and live accordingly.

I have a lot of sympathy and respect for you guys on the front line.


Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:26:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?



I hate them because they are supposed reason we've lost so many of our rights.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:29:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 2:37:50 PM EST by RMac]

Originally Posted By ar50troll:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
I got severe back pain sometimes but, I don't take any pain drugs.

I got 4 kids that can drive me batty sometimes but, I don't take any drugs.

I worry about my wife but, I don't take any drugs.

I used to work 80 hrs a week and I didn't take any drugs.

Drugs, to change your mood/state of mind, are for the weak/losers.




Oh, really. What about all the people with Manic/Depresion that are helped with Lithium? What about other drugs that are used, with great success I might add, for depression? Are these people "loosers" or "weak" for having an illness?
Also, as far as Altering your State of Mind, when is the last time you've had a chocolet bar, that altered your mood, how about a cup of coffee, that's a mood altering substance, beer, wine, whiskey, that'll really alter your mood and just see what happens when someone doesn't get a smoke for a few hours, their mood is really altered, not from having the drug, but from NOT having it.
Some people explore by hiking the back country or looking thru a telescope others explore the mind by using certain substances that alter the perceptions, to each his own.



All drugs such, legal and otherwise. If your depressed do something about it. Don't take a stupid pill. Either get over it or kill yourself. Drugs are just a lazy alternative for weak minded people.
Plain and simple.




Have you ever taken a prescription pill?
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:32:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 3:00:18 PM EST by TNFrank]
www.soveriegn.freeservers.com/drugs.htm
Check out the above web site. Gee, no one that uses drugs ever amounsts to anything, do they.LOL

Isaac Abrams, artist LSD Tim Allen, actor, comedian "Home Improvement", "The Santa Clause" cocaine Richard Alpert (also known as Baba Ram Das), psychologist, author, guru LSD Lewis Daniel Armstrong, musician ("Satchmo") marijuana Allen Atwell, artist LSD Marcus Aurelius, philosopher, emperor of Rome opium Ginger Baker, musician amphetamines Tallulah Bankhead, actress cocaine Marion Barry, mayor of Washington, D.C. cocaine, alcohol Charles Baudelaire, poet absinthe The Beatles, musicians marijuana, LSD John Belushi, comedian, actor marijuana, heroin, cocaine Sarah Bernhardt, actress cocaine Elizabeth Barrett Browning, poet opium Lenny Bruce, comedian, free speech activist marijuana, heroin William S. Burroughs, historian, author: "Naked Lunch", "I, Claudius" cocaine, opium Lewis Carrol, mathematician, photographer, author: "Alice in Wonderland" mushrooms Winston Churchill, British prime minister alcohol Grover Cleveland, U.S. president cocaine William Clinton, U.S. president "Well, I did smoke pot, but I didn't inhale. And I was in England, so it really doesn't count. Plus, no-one saw me. So what's the big fuss? The half million people arrested for pot last year are just sore losers." (If you got locked up for a few decades, you would be too.) marijuana Jean Cocteau, playwrite: "Orpheus" opium Samuel Taylor Coleridge, poet: "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" opium (laudanum) Wilkie Collins, author: "The Moonstone" opium David Crosby, Musician, founding member of "The Byrds" and "Crosby, Stills and Nash" marijuana, cocaine Aleister Crowley, magician, author: "Magick Without Tears", "Moonchild", "The Book of Thoth", "Diary of a Drug Fiend", "Theory of Magick" EVERYTHING Salivor Dali, painter "Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." hashish Thomas DeQuincy, author: "Confessions of an English Opium-Eater" opium (laudanum) Charles Dickens, author: "A Christmas Carol", "Oliver Twist" opium Arthur Conan Doyle, logican, author: "Sherlock Holmes" (a cocaine user) opium Isadora Duncan (revolutionized dance) cocaine Thomas Alva Edison, inventor, industrialist cocaine, alcohol Havelock Ellis, physician, author: "Psychology of Sex", essay: "Mezcal: A New Artificial Paradise" peyote Carrie Fisher, Actress, screenwriter prescription drugs Ben Franklin, inventor, publisher, scientist, American statesman opium, marijuana Peter Fonda, actor marijuana, LSD Sigmund Freud, physician, "Father of Psychoanalysis" cocaine Jerry Garcia, musician (with The Grateful Dead), philospher, spiritual consultant to Jefferson Airplane, religious leader LSD, marijuana, heroin Newt Ginrich, Speaker of the Senate "See, when I smoked pot it was illegal, but not immoral. Now, it is illegal AND immoral. The law didn't change, only the morality. That's why you get to go to jail and I don't. Any questions?" Yes, does he really believe himself? marijuana Al Gore, U.S. vice-president "My work on the environment is so important that I can't take the time off to go to jail for something so trivial as marijuana. But its okay with me if you go." (Insensitive snot) marijuana Ulysses S. Grant, U.S. president cocaine, alcohol Grateful Dead, musicians marijuana Jimi Hendrix, musician, singer, legendary guitar player LSD, heroin Albert Hoffman, chemist, discovered LSD and became a proponant LSD Billie Holliday, singer opium Dennis Hopper, actor marijuana Aldous Huxley, author: "Brave New World", "Island", "Doors of Perception" mescaline William James, physician, philosopher nitrous oxide, ether, peyote Jefferson Airplane/Starship, musicians maijuana Thomas Jefferson, U.S. president, inventor, architect, marijuana farmer marijuana Jesus the Nazerite, Carpenter, Rabbi, "Christ"
* Amanita muscaria, also known as fly agaric. Evidence available from R. Gordon Wasson, ("Soma, The Divine Mushroom of Immortality") mushroom expert and executive to J.P. Morgan. Another case was made by John M. Allegro, noted Bible scholar and linguist, who presented evidence in "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" that the story of Jesus was actually an allegory on the properties of the amanita. alcohol, mushrooms*
Steve Jobs, co-creator of the Apple computer, the NeXt computer, and former head of Apple Computers, Inc. marijuana, LSD Janis Joplin, singer heroin, alcohol Stacy Keach, actor (Mike Hammer) cocaine John Keats, poet opium Ken Kesey, author: "One Flew Over the Coo-Coo's Nest", "Once a Great Notion"
* Mr. Kesey's personal correction: I only had him down for LSD, to which he commented that someone not willing to try anything, is not a real truth-seeker, but only a dilatant. EVERYTHING*

Archibald Leach (actor Cary Grant) LSD Timothy Leary, psychologist, Father of Transactional Analysis, software author: "Mindwheel". "Turn on, tune in, drop out." LSD, marijuana Donovan Leich, musician LSD, marijuana Pope Leo XIII cocaine John Cunningham Lilly, physician, scientist (electronics, dolphin communication, sensory deprivation), philosopher, author: "Mind of the Dolphin", "Center of the Cyclone" LSD, ketamine

Bela Lugosi, actor opium, morphine Bob Marley, musician "The Father of Reggae Music" marijuana Judge Marquat, Arizona Supreme Court Justice, involved in Miranda ruling. marijuana Joseph McCarthy, U.S. Senator opium Joni Mitchell, Musician Marijuana Wier Mitchell, physician, author: "Injuries of the Nerves and their Consequences" peyote Mohammed, spiritual leader hashish Marcia Moore, Sheraton Hotel heiress, author: "Hypersentience", Journeys into the Bright World" LSD marijuana, ketamine Jim Morrison, lead singer for The Doors cocaine, alocohol, LSD, marijuana Mothers of Invention, musicians LSD, marijuana Willi Nelson, musician marijuana Jack Nicholson, actor marijuana, LSD Stevie Nicks, singer cocaine Philippus Aureolus Paracelsus, Father of Modern Medicine opium Pablo Picasso, painter, "The smell of opium is the least stupid smell in the world." opium Plotinus, Roman philosopher, 205-270 AD opium Edgar Allen Poe, poet, author: "The Raven", "The Fall of the House of Usher" opium Jackson Pollack, painter (His work sold for up to $8,000,000 a piece.) alcohol Cole Porter, composer cocaine Elvis Presley, singer, actor prescription drugs Richard Pryor, actor, comedian cocaine Cardinal Duc de Richelieu, leading minister to king Louis XIII opium Franklin Delano Roosevelt, U.S. president alcohol Sir Walter Scott, poet, author opium Shelly, poet opium Arlene Sklar-Weinstein, artist LSD Robert Louis Stevenson, author cocaine, morphine The Rolling Stones (reputed to be the greatest rock-and-roll band in the world) marijuana, LSD Desmond Taylor, film director cocaineClarence Thomas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice "I was smart enough to use pot without getting caught, and now I'm on the Supreme Court. If you were stupid enough to get caught, that's your problem. Your appeal is denied. This 40 year sentence just might teach you a lesson." Clearly, a hateful man. marijuana Vincent Van Gogh, painter absinthe, camphor Jesse Ventura, wrestler, governor of Minnesota marijuana Jules Verne, author: "The Time Machine", "War of the Worlds", "2,000 Leagues Under the Sea" cocaine George Washington, U.S. president, marijuana farmer marijuana (sensimilla) Allen Watts, Zen philosopher, masters degree in religion, doctorate in divinity, author: "The Joyous Cosmology", "Zen Sticks, Zen Bones", "The Taboo against Knowing Who You Are", "The Wisdom of Insecurity". LSD, marijuana, mescaline, psilocybin, dimethyl-tryptamine (DMT), alcohol Andrew Wiel, physician, psychopharmicologist, anthropologist, fire-walker, alternative health expert, author: "The Natural Mind", "Spontaneous Healing", "8 Weeks to Optimum Health" marijuana, peyote, yage (S. American hallucinagin) William Wilberforce, almost singlehandedly got slavery abolished throughout the British Empire opium
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:42:57 PM EST
Being young I can say that the vast majority of my peers and my freinds smoke weed, a few have dabbled in coke, and while none have done it(that I know of), herion is HUGE in my area. I dont bitch at them or critize them b/c it's their deal and they all know not to bring it around me.
I am the ONLY young person that I know that never tried any of it for the simple reason that the only two things I ever tried I ended up doing in excess.
I hate sometimes how much I like to drink, and I really hate how much I chew. Just "trying" those those things showed me that I cant dabble in anything without jumping in headfirst. I hate those two vices, but I'm certain that they have kept me from doing anything else.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:50:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Mankind has been using Drugs or one kind or another for Thousands of years. Some were even revered as "Sacared" or "Holy" by the tribes/people that used them. Alcohol is a drug, so is nicotine and caffenie and when you get right down to it, everything that we take into our bodies is a "drug" in one way or another. Only in the last 100 years has "Drugs" become a bad thing. Before that people did what they did and paid for it or lived with it but you didn't get locked up for it. Shamans have used various drugs for thousands of years to alter their perception so they can see into the "spirit" world. Salvia Divinorum is one of those drugs, it is legal and has no ill side effects, the Mazetec Indians have used it for generations with no ill effect on their comunity. That's because it's used in the proper setting and for the right purpose, not as a substance to "just get high" with. Part of problem with making a drug illegal is that with time people forget the proper use of that drug so that problems arise when it is used by people that don't know what they're doing. Part of the reason that our minds have evolved the way that they have is because of drugs and their "enlightning" effect that they have on our consiousness. Many great poets, writers, musicans and thinkers were drug users. Edgar Allen Poe, Sir Aurther Conen Doyle, Byron, Shelly, Louie Armstrong, Most Rock n' Roll musicians, were, are and will continue to be drug users. To just throw a blanket statement on something is just plain wrong. Some people can't handle drugs and shouldn't use them, some use them all of their lives without any problems what so ever. Let the buyer beware, your mileage may vairy.hr
Well put friend!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:54:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
www.soveriegn.freeservers.com/drugs.htm
Check out the above web site. Gee, no one that uses drugs ever amounsts to anything, do they.LOL

Isaac Abrams, artist LSD Tim Allen, actor, comedian "Home Improvement", "The Santa Clause" cocaine Richard Alpert (also known as Baba Ram Das), psychologist, author, guru LSD Lewis Daniel Armstrong, musician ("Satchmo") marijuana Allen Atwell, artist LSD Marcus Aurelius, philosopher, emperor of Rome opium Ginger Baker, musician amphetamines Tallulah Bankhead, actress cocaine Marion Barry, mayor of Washington, D.C. cocaine, alcohol Charles Baudelaire, poet absinthe The Beatles, musicians marijuana, LSD John Belushi, comedian, actor marijuana, heroin, cocaine Sarah Bernhardt, actress cocaine Elizabeth Barrett Browning, poet opium Lenny Bruce, comedian, free speech activist marijuana, heroin William S. Burroughs, historian, author: "Naked Lunch", "I, Claudius" cocaine, opium Lewis Carrol, mathematician, photographer, author: "Alice in Wonderland" mushrooms Winston Churchill, British prime minister alcohol Grover Cleveland, U.S. president cocaine William Clinton, U.S. president "Well, I did smoke pot, but I didn't inhale. And I was in England, so it really doesn't count. Plus, no-one saw me. So what's the big fuss? The half million people arrested for pot last year are just sore losers." (If you got locked up for a few decades, you would be too.) marijuana Jean Cocteau, playwrite: "Orpheus" opium Samuel Taylor Coleridge, poet: "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" opium (laudanum) Wilkie Collins, author: "The Moonstone" opium David Crosby, Musician, founding member of "The Byrds" and "Crosby, Stills and Nash" marijuana, cocaine Aleister Crowley, magician, author: "Magick Without Tears", "Moonchild", "The Book of Thoth", "Diary of a Drug Fiend", "Theory of Magick" EVERYTHING Salivor Dali, painter "Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." hashish Thomas DeQuincy, author: "Confessions of an English Opium-Eater" opium (laudanum) Charles Dickens, author: "A Christmas Carol", "Oliver Twist" opium Arthur Conan Doyle, logican, author: "Sherlock Holmes" (a cocaine user) opium Isadora Duncan (revolutionized dance) cocaine Thomas Alva Edison, inventor, industrialist cocaine, alcohol Havelock Ellis, physician, author: "Psychology of Sex", essay: "Mezcal: A New Artificial Paradise" peyote Carrie Fisher, Actress, screenwriter prescription drugs Ben Franklin, inventor, publisher, scientist, American statesman opium, marijuana Peter Fonda, actor marijuana, LSD Sigmund Freud, physician, "Father of Psychoanalysis" cocaine Jerry Garcia, musician (with The Grateful Dead), philospher, spiritual consultant to Jefferson Airplane, religious leader LSD, marijuana, heroin Newt Ginrich, Speaker of the Senate "See, when I smoked pot it was illegal, but not immoral. Now, it is illegal AND immoral. The law didn't change, only the morality. That's why you get to go to jail and I don't. Any questions?" Yes, does he really believe himself? marijuana Al Gore, U.S. vice-president "My work on the environment is so important that I can't take the time off to go to jail for something so trivial as marijuana. But its okay with me if you go." (Insensitive snot) marijuana Ulysses S. Grant, U.S. president cocaine, alcohol Grateful Dead, musicians marijuana Jimi Hendrix, musician, singer, legendary guitar player LSD, heroin Albert Hoffman, chemist, discovered LSD and became a proponant LSD Billie Holliday, singer opium Dennis Hopper, actor marijuana Aldous Huxley, author: "Brave New World", "Island", "Doors of Perception" mescaline William James, physician, philosopher nitrous oxide, ether, peyote Jefferson Airplane/Starship, musicians maijuana Thomas Jefferson, U.S. president, inventor, architect, marijuana farmer marijuana Jesus the Nazerite, Carpenter, Rabbi, "Christ"
* Amanita muscaria, also known as fly agaric. Evidence available from R. Gordon Wasson, ("Soma, The Divine Mushroom of Immortality") mushroom expert and executive to J.P. Morgan. Another case was made by John M. Allegro, noted Bible scholar and linguist, who presented evidence in "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" that the story of Jesus was actually an allegory on the properties of the amanita. alcohol, mushrooms*
Steve Jobs, co-creator of the Apple computer, the NeXt computer, and former head of Apple Computers, Inc. marijuana, LSD Janis Joplin, singer heroin, alcohol Stacy Keach, actor (Mike Hammer) cocaine John Keats, poet opium Ken Kesey, author: "One Flew Over the Coo-Coo's Nest", "Once a Great Notion"
* Mr. Kesey's personal correction: I only had him down for LSD, to which he commented that someone not willing to try anything, is not a real truth-seeker, but only a dilatant. EVERYTHING*

Archibald Leach (actor Cary Grant) LSD Timothy Leary, psychologist, Father of Transactional Analysis, software author: "Mindwheel". "Turn on, tune in, drop out." LSD, marijuana Donovan Leich, musician LSD, marijuana Pope Leo XIII cocaine John Cunningham Lilly, physician, scientist (electronics, dolphin communication, sensory deprivation), philosopher, author: "Mind of the Dolphin", "Center of the Cyclone" LSD, ketamine

Bela Lugosi, actor opium, morphine Bob Marley, musician "The Father of Reggae Music" marijuana Judge Marquat, Arizona Supreme Court Justice, involved in Miranda ruling. marijuana Joseph McCarthy, U.S. Senator opium Joni Mitchell, Musician Marijuana Wier Mitchell, physician, author: "Injuries of the Nerves and their Consequences" peyote Mohammed, spiritual leader hashish Marcia Moore, Sheraton Hotel heiress, author: "Hypersentience", Journeys into the Bright World" LSD marijuana, ketamine Jim Morrison, lead singer for The Doors cocaine, alocohol, LSD, marijuana Mothers of Invention, musicians LSD, marijuana Willi Nelson, musician marijuana Jack Nicholson, actor marijuana, LSD Stevie Nicks, singer cocaine Philippus Aureolus Paracelsus, Father of Modern Medicine opium Pablo Picasso, painter, "The smell of opium is the least stupid smell in the world." opium Plotinus, Roman philosopher, 205-270 AD opium Edgar Allen Poe, poet, author: "The Raven", "The Fall of the House of Usher" opium Jackson Pollack, painter (His work sold for up to $8,000,000 a piece.) alcohol Cole Porter, composer cocaine Elvis Presley, singer, actor prescription drugs Richard Pryor, actor, comedian cocaine Cardinal Duc de Richelieu, leading minister to king Louis XIII opium Franklin Delano Roosevelt, U.S. president alcohol Sir Walter Scott, poet, author opium Shelly, poet opium Arlene Sklar-Weinstein, artist LSD Robert Louis Stevenson, author cocaine, morphine The Rolling Stones (reputed to be the greatest rock-and-roll band in the world) marijuana, LSD Desmond Taylor, film director cocaine Clarence Thomas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice "I was smart enough to use pot without getting caught, and now I'm on the Supreme Court. If you were stupid enough to get caught, that's your problem. Your appeal is denied. This 40 year sentence just might teach you a lesson." Clearly, a hateful man. marijuana Vincent Van Gogh, painter absinthe, camphor Jesse Ventura, wrestler, governor of Minnesota marijuana Jules Verne, author: "The Time Machine", "War of the Worlds", "2,000 Leagues Under the Sea" cocaine George Washington, U.S. president, marijuana farmer marijuana (sensimilla) Allen Watts, Zen philosopher, masters degree in religion, doctorate in divinity, author: "The Joyous Cosmology", "Zen Sticks, Zen Bones", "The Taboo against Knowing Who You Are", "The Wisdom of Insecurity". LSD, marijuana, mescaline, psilocybin, dimethyl-tryptamine (DMT), alcohol Andrew Wiel, physician, psychopharmicologist, anthropologist, fire-walker, alternative health expert, author: "The Natural Mind", "Spontaneous Healing", "8 Weeks to Optimum Health" marijuana, peyote, yage (S. American hallucinagin) William Wilberforce, almost singlehandedly got slavery abolished throughout the British Empire opium

Yeah thats alot of productive drug users!!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:55:25 PM EST
I look down on the know-it-all-stoners. No pity what so ever. It certainly is. It's no disease. Reap it.

If they truly desire to quit and need help, I'll help. But I will not give them money or anything they can sell.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:39:58 PM EST
Well gee, this thread died fast.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:23:50 PM EST
as long as you keep a job, support yourself, and aren't cruising the roads menacing others, i say do what ever you want.
key thing being that you are the drug equivalent of a functional alcoholic; having a problem, but taking care of business in spite of it.

now, those that are on drugs but have no job, steal, lie, have poor hygiene, live on the streets, etc....those i have no use for and i do look down on them somewhat.
there's a time and place for everything, and there's no reason you can't take care of what needs takin' care of, and THEN get fucked up.

as a side note, concerning those that totally look down on drug users, i wonder how many people that they interact with that they think highly of, only because they don't know they smoke pot recreationally,and don't have that knowlege to cloud their opinion of those people?

recreational pot smokers are ALL AROUND YOU, and you can't tell who is and who isn't.
and, yes, some are very successful and highly educated,
the broad brush stroke of the stereotype just isn't correct.

time and place for everything/discression in use/ no problem.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:26:59 AM EST
If it weren't for the tweeks, there would be 80% less crime in my hood.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:34:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?


They are weak minded people who cannot deal with reality. I pity them.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:44:37 AM EST
By drugs do you mean pot? Vicatin? Crack? Or Alcohol?


Which ones?

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:47:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
If it weren't for the tweeks, there would be 80% less crime in my hood.



Bottom line, this really is the problem with drugs and booze. If addicts got stoned/drunk and kept their hands to themselves we wouldn't need boat loads of drug laws and the war on drugs.

The reality is that laws don't reduce crime, prisons reduce crime.
Therapy doesn't cure addiction, abstinance cures addiction.
And as always, guns don't kill people, drugged out losers kill people.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 6:58:38 AM EST
To clarify: When I posted this I was talking about street level slammers and tweaks using drugs like heroin, meth, pcp, pot, etc... A rule of thumb is anything you have to detox off of. I have never heard of anyone addicted to pot, though.

People that are hooked on pain meds and such from legit injuries are not what I was targeting. People (alot of kiddies) that use pain meds to get high are vastly different.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:02:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them?



Not really. Many people who use drugs do so out of a deep poverty in their spirit that is difficult to explain. These people are hurting and hurting deeply and they look for something to make the pain go away.

These people have my sympathy and my desire to help.



Pity?



Yes.



Is it their own damned fault?



Yes. It is their fault. Lots of people suffer loss or poverty or numerous other emotional drains, but they don't turn to drugs. Adding drug addiction to the list does not help you any. But one thing we so easily forget is that our worst enemy faces us in the mirror every morning.



A disease?



It can certainly get to the point where they can no longer help themselves. They become slaves to the drug.



Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?



They should be helped. But being helped does not mean being coddled and indulged, as so many people today think. It means someone caring enough about you to tell you the truth and to beat some sense into your skull so that you will reform your self destructive behavior and get right. The stubborn refusal to let a man sink to his lowest level is the mark of a person who has genuine love in his heart.

Mushy sentiment and momentary donations are only meant to ease the conscience of the one coddling. But the man who cares will roll up his sleeves and work hard and demand hard things of the person he is trying to reform.



Where do you stand on the issue?



When I see people enslaved by drugs, it breaks my heart. I have seen the depths that await them and have seen what it does to people. Left alone, the addiction can literally make a man like the walking dead. It is sad.

Thus we must be on guard to defend our kids and families against drugs. We must take those who have a problem and help them, but genuninely help them in such a way that they get out from under the weight of the drug.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:07:31 AM EST
Frank --

You can post a list of people who have achieved something in spite of drug use in their past. Just like I can post examples of communists who have done decent things for fellow men.

But that hardly is the rule.

The vast majority of drug users I have seen start with something like MJ and move on to harder and harder drugs. Their life becomes a mess.

Do me a favor: Ask former addicts whether or not they are proud of using them. I know for sure several people in your little list denounced their drug use, so I doubt you will have much success....
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:10:07 AM EST
LEGALIZE DRUGS AND SAVE THE GODDAMM TAX PAYERS SOME MONEY!!! HAVEN'T WE LEARNED FROM THE PROHIBITION PERIOD???


sorry for the caps.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:11:45 AM EST
Ok. Frank, you have lost it.

Jesus Christ was not a pothead. For heaven's sake, make whatever silly points you want to by listing drug users.

Think you can see God however you want to, and think that He will accept whatever.

BUT for the sake of all that is Holy, don't EVER post some idiot nonsense about Christ being a drug user.

Some people are so "enlightened" that they can't see anything anymore.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:14:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By 22three:
] Yeah thats alot of productive drug users!!!



And a lot of them were dead long before their time, and they left a great deal of human suffering and misery in their wake.

If we could bring back some of the people on that list like Elvis Pressley and ask them about drugs, what exactly do you think they would say?

Blindness because one can't see is one thing. But blindness because one refuses to see is another.

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:35:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Do you look down on them? Pity? Is it their own damned fault? A disease? Should they be spoon-fed help and money or left out to reap what they have sown?

Where do you stand on the issue?



1) It's hard sometimes not to look down on them. It's human nature to want to feel superior. The irony in this for me (as well as the wrong in it) is that I have needed extensive counciling in my own life to deal with addictive disorders (although not substance abuse).
2) I don't pity addicts, but I have a certain amount of empathy with them. There is a big difference.
3) It is their own fault to a large degree, however, I believe that there is also a genetic predisposition to addictive disorders. This is one reason why alcoholism, for example, tends to run in families. There are also environmental factors. It's very well documented that sexual abuse in childhood seriously damages children's minds and emotional development. Other forms of physical abuse can contribute as well. This kind of damage can manifest itself later in life in addictive disorders.
4) It's not a physical desease in my view but it is a product (usually) of emotional or mental disturbance. And there most definately is such a thing as mental illness.
5) Addictive disorders cannot be cured from the outside. It does very little good to "throw an alcoholic into the tank to dry out". But people with addictive disorders can turn their own lives around when they get to the point where they are willing to do the heavy lifting necessary themselves. Often they need help with this process (I was once one of these people). For people like this it is, in my view, definately worth society's while to help make counciling available (most recovering addicts are in no position to come up with the necessary dollars on their own). It is very possible for ex-addicts to become very worthwhile members of the community and everyone wins in the instances when this happens.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:41:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By ar50troll:

All drugs such, legal and otherwise. If your depressed do something about it. Don't take a stupid pill. Either get over it or kill yourself. Drugs are just a lazy alternative for weak minded people.
Plain and simple.



You're a moron.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:42:55 AM EST
Fact: Jesus Christ drank wine.
Fact: Wine has alcohol in it.(no way to stop it, didn't have pastureazation, grape juice ferments and makes wine with alcohol. End of story)
Fact:Alcohol IS a drug.
er go-Jesus was a drug user, like it or not.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 7:53:05 AM EST
Jesus 'healed using cannabis'

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles

Jesus was almost certainly a cannabis user and an early proponent of the medicinal properties of the drug, according to a study of scriptural texts published this month. The study suggests that Jesus and his disciples used the drug to carry out miraculous healings.

The anointing oil used by Jesus and his disciples contained an ingredient called kaneh-bosem which has since been identified as cannabis extract, according to an article by Chris Bennett in the drugs magazine, High Times, entitled Was Jesus a Stoner? The incense used by Jesus in ceremonies also contained a cannabis extract, suggests Mr Bennett, who quotes scholars to back his claims.

"There can be little doubt about a role for cannabis in Judaic religion," Carl Ruck, professor of classical mythology at Boston University said.

Referring to the existence of cannabis in anointing oils used in ceremonies, he added: "Obviously the easy availability and long-established tradition of cannabis in early Judaism... would inevitably have included it in the [Christian] mixtures."

Mr Bennett suggests those anointed with the oils used by Jesus were "literally drenched in this potent mixture... Although most modern people choose to smoke or eat pot, when its active ingredients are transferred into an oil-based carrier, it can also be absorbed through the skin".

Quoting the New Testament, Mr Bennett argues that Jesus anointed his disciples with the oil and encouraged them to do the same with other followers. This could have been responsible for healing eye and skin diseases referred to in the Gospels.

"If cannabis was one of the main ingredients of the ancient anointing oil... and receiving this oil is what made Jesus the Christ and his followers Christians, then persecuting those who use cannabis could be considered anti-Christ," Mr Bennett concludes.


Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:07:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2004 8:17:03 AM EST by NSFJojo]
And if Jesus did drugs, Then it's OK.

on a side note: Even the ACLU doesn't support the drug war.

On another note:


The history of nonmedical drug use, and the development of policies in response to drug use, also extends back to the early settlement of the country. Like alcohol, the classification of certain drugs as legal, or illegal, has changed over time. These changes sometimes had racial and class overtones.

According to Mosher and Yanagisako, for example, Prohibition was in part a response to the drinking practices of European immigrants, who became the new lower class. Cocaine and opium were legal during the 19th century, and were favored drugs among the middle and upper classes. Cocaine became illegal after it became associated with African Americans following Reconstruction. Opium was first restricted in California in 1875 when it became associated with Chinese immigrant workers. Marijuana was legal until the 1930s when it became associated with Mexicans. LSD, legal in the 1950s, became illegal in 1967 when it became associated with the counterculture.



ETA: Mosher and Yanagisako's article summarized:


Mosher JF; Yanagisako KL. Public health, not social warfare: A public health approach to illegal drug policy: Journal of Public Health Policy Vol.12 No.3 (278-323),1991
This article makes three major arguments: (1) the current War on Drugs undercuts public health values, and premises, resulting in a war on the poor, disenfranchised, people of color, the homeless, and the unemployed; (2) drug problems should be addressed primarily within the realm of public health policy rather than criminal justice policy; and (3) to achieve a viable public health drug policy, the public health community needs to build grassroots support and become effective activists. The article reviews the history of past drug wars, analyzes recent trends in illegal drug use and problems, and critiques current policy initiatives and their consequences. It then outlines a comprehensive, public health approach to addressing illegal drug problems, and concludes with an analysis of what steps are needed to become effective in the public policy arena. Copyright 1991, Journal of Public Health Policy, Inc.

Link Posted: 9/2/2004 8:18:59 AM EST
Notice, there is a great difference between "Drug User" and "Drug Addict". Using drugs is not a bad thing, being addicted to them is. Using a drug when YOU want to use it is fine, you control it and bend it to your will and for your good. Using a drug because you can't stop is a very bad thing because the drug controls you and bends you to it's will.

Drug use=OK
Drug abuse/addiction=Bad
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