Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 4/14/2006 11:28:16 AM EST
Well, I purchased a Vulcan AK-47 underfolder receiver on the EE. As we all know, it's ok to receive firearms from out-of-state individuals, as long as the firearm in question is shipped to a FFL Dealer on the purchaser's end.

I go to my local FFL dealer, and tell him an out of state seller needs a copy of his FFL license sent to him, so that he will know he's sending it to a FFL dealer. "Well, I'm not sure I can do that. I take it he doesn't have a FFL?" Ok. I am starting to see that he's a victim of the ATF propaganda.

So, my dealer calls the local ATF branch office. After 30 seconds on the phone with an agent, he tells me that the agent said he couldn't receive the receiver from a non-FFL seller. Now I'm pissed. It's on their web site, and it's even under the FAQ section....

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]


So, I go home and pull the above off the ATF website. I then call the local ATF branch office. I get some administrative asst. I tell her I would like to speak to an agent about a shipping question. Well, she tells me there are no agents avaiable right now (must be out looking for Easter bunnies toting AKs and ARs) and to tell her what my question is.

Well, I explain the above to her, and even quote the section from their website. She still tells me that the seller can not send the receiver to my local FFL dealer. I'm like where does it say the sender has to have a FFL? At this point, she proceeds to tell me that she is about to walk out the door. I proceed to tell her how convenient it is to not have a single agent to talk to and that she's leaving me with my balls in my hands. I then tell her it's ok, cause I'm going to call my attorney and see how he interprets the above section from their website.

Needless to say, she becomes real cooperative. Calls my local dealer and puts me on 3-way. She then tells him that it's ok for him to send a copy of his license to the seller and for him to receive and transfer the receiver to me upon arrival.

Sorry about the long rant. I was really pissed and still am somewhat pissed off. It's crap like this that leaves a bad taste in your mouth and tarnishes the field of law enforcement. One thing I have to say is that administrative asst sure is loyal to her team. She never would give me the name of the agent my local dealer spoke to. Unfortunately for me, my local dealer said the agent on the phone never told him his name. Maybe they are cracking down on us Georgians due to the UGA ninja incident too.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:30:38 AM EST
holy shit! you took on the ATF and won!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:32:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
holy shit! you took on the ATF and won!



Not yet...they have till Monday to burn his house down and shoot his dog!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:32:38 AM EST
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:32:52 AM EST
Since when does ATF (or almost any alphabet gooberment agency) think that they have to follow the law as written?

Look what is going on in this country right now for your answer.

The BATFE is just the most capricious offender when it comes to making shit up as they go.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:34:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
holy shit! you took on the ATF and won!



I'm probably on their shit list for this region now. Oh well. If you are tasked in enforcing the law, do it right. I love how they got honest, local FFL dealers scared shitless. My local dealer is a good guy. Only charges me $20 per transfer. He was glad I gave them hell too, since they give him shit on their inspections of his store/paperwork too.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:35:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 11:38:35 AM EST by FlamingGlory]

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.


Did you just read what the man posted?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:36:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
holy shit! you took on the ATF and won!



Not yet...they have till Monday to burn his house down and shoot his dog!



I was just about to say that....


Wait til they get back in the office on monday, they have your number on caller ID and will be searching your house for your new toy while you are at work. They will then poison your dog, kill your family and then blackbag you. By tuesday your neighbors will have "The Wilsons" moving in next door, and you will become a passing thought in their minds.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:36:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



haha...misinformed.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:37:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 11:38:20 AM EST by jmarkma]

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



ETA: Dang I am slow

Did you miss this part?

"B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29] "

As long as a gun from out of state goes through an FFL before reaching your hands its fine. The person sending the firearm only has to verify who he is sending it to has an FFL. No need to involve another FFL.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:37:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 11:39:31 AM EST by BIKECOP29]

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



The seller (he's in Virginia), does not have to go through a FFL dealer. A FFL dealer is only needed on the purchaser's end. You must still be hooked up to the Matrix.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:40:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:41:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By sherrick13:
The fed .gov has no idea of the rules than we do.

In the last week I have asked 5 people in ICE if F1 visa holders have to carry their passport at all times. I got 5 different answers.

How the fuck do you get five different answers to a yes or no question.



It's called job security. Need 5 people on the payroll for that one question.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:42:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
holy shit! you took on the ATF and won!



Not yet...they have till Monday to burn his house down and shoot his dog!



I better start looking for a new home and new dogs.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:46:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



The seller (he's in Virginia), does not have to go through a FFL dealer. A FFL dealer is only needed on the purchaser's end. You must still be hooked up to the Matrix.



That is correct but many FFLs will not accept a shipped firearm from an unlicensed person. There is also no reason for an unlicensed person to request or be supplied with a copy of the FFLs license. The person shipping the firearm should just verify the FFLs shipping address using the ATF FFL EZ Check system.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:48:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



The seller (he's in Virginia), does not have to go through a FFL dealer. A FFL dealer is only needed on the purchaser's end. You must still be hooked up to the Matrix.



That is correct but many FFLs will not accept a shipped firearm from an unlicensed person. There is also no reason for an unlicensed person to request or be supplied with a copy of the FFLs license. The person shipping the firearm should just verify the FFLs shipping address using the ATF FFL EZ Check system.



I guess the seller feels more "comfy" having a copy of the actual license in his hands I suppose. I wish more people used the ATF FFL EZ Check system. Would speed up transaction times too.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:54:00 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:55:09 AM EST
If you know you are right and lawyer up against the ATF, they back down quickly.

Moral of the story...You should NOT have to lawyer up against the ATF when you are right in the first place. They should have to pay your legal fees when they screw up. Period.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:01:45 PM EST
IIRC, the dealer is supposed to write "VOID" across the signature block of the FFL copy, rather than sign it (so the sender cant photoshop their own license using it). The sender is then supposed to check the FFL number on the EZCheck system and send to the confirmed address.

Kharn
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:02:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By lippo:
If you know you are right and lawyer up against the ATF, they back down quickly.

Moral of the story...You should NOT have to lawyer up against the ATF when you are right in the first place. They should have to pay your legal fees when they screw up. Period.



Bingo! Thank you! I knew I was right. Saw it on their freakin' web site and read various posts on here saying it was ok to receive (the posts had verified links to correct info). And still want to play hot potatoes with rules/regulations. I shouldn't have had to threaten them with legal action when I'm following the letter of the law.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:24:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



The seller (he's in Virginia), does not have to go through a FFL dealer. A FFL dealer is only needed on the purchaser's end. You must still be hooked up to the Matrix.



That is correct but many FFLs will not accept a shipped firearm from an unlicensed person. There is also no reason for an unlicensed person to request or be supplied with a copy of the FFLs license. The person shipping the firearm should just verify the FFLs shipping address using the ATF FFL EZ Check system.



Exactly. Most dealers won't hand over a copy of their license to an unlicensed person. I've always done it FFL to FFL with no problems. If you want to try it the other way, may the Force be with you. I prefer to do it the easy way.

If you think what I say is "wrong," maybe you need to find a different FFL who is willing to do it your way. I know what I have been told, and it has always worked for me. I'm not a lawyer; I just know what works for me, and I'll continue to do it that way.

Next week I'll let you know how my transaction turned out, and you can do the same here, if you will.

Keep us posted. I'm sure everyone would like to hear the end result. Best of luck to you.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:30:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:31:39 PM EST by legonas]
Ask for the first 3 and last 5 numbers of license.

GO to FFL EZCHECK WEBSITE.

Make sure license and address are VALID.

Ship product.

end of story. NO paper INVOLVED.


edited for size lol wrong button!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:34:18 PM EST
Nice going, Skippy. Your church is going to be ashes by sundown.


- BG
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:34:47 PM EST
It's a setup. Prepare for a no knock warrant! Don't you know ATF is never wrong until a Judge rules that way. TT
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:38:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:39:25 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

So, I go home and pull the above off the ATF website. I then call the local ATF branch office. I get some administrative asst. I tell her I would like to speak to an agent about a shipping question. Well, she tells me there are no agents avaiable right now (must be out looking for Easter bunnies toting AKs and ARs) and to tell her what my question is.

Well, I explain the above to her, and even quote the section from their website. She still tells me that the seller can not send the receiver to my local FFL dealer. I'm like where does it say the sender has to have a FFL? At this point, she proceeds to tell me that she is about to walk out the door. I proceed to tell her how convenient it is to not have a single agent to talk to and that she's leaving me with my balls in my hands. I then tell her it's ok, cause I'm going to call my attorney and see how he interprets the above section from their website.

Needless to say, she becomes real cooperative. Calls my local dealer and puts me on 3-way. She then tells him that it's ok for him to send a copy of his license to the seller and for him to receive and transfer the receiver to me upon arrival.



An administrative assistant called your dealer, put you on a three-way conference call, and dispensed legal advice over the phone - all when it was time for her to go home on a Friday afternoon?

Wow. That is bizarre.

Why would she even get "real cooperative" after you issue some vague and noncredible threat about your attorney? It's not like you can really sue the ATF for what it says on their website, and it's not like it's a private company that is afraid of lawsuits or anything.

But absolutely awesome, if accurate! Score one for the good guys.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:39:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:39:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

So, I go home and pull the above off the ATF website. I then call the local ATF branch office. I get some administrative asst. I tell her I would like to speak to an agent about a shipping question. Well, she tells me there are no agents avaiable right now (must be out looking for Easter bunnies toting AKs and ARs) and to tell her what my question is.




You asked for it.

Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:43:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:44:29 PM EST by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By FITTER:
Exactly. Most dealers won't hand over a copy of their license to an unlicensed person. I've always done it FFL to FFL with no problems. If you want to try it the other way, may the Force be with you. I prefer to do it the easy way.



FFL to FFL is definitely the safest way especially if something goes wrong with the transfer and the firearm has to be returned to the seller. Some FFLs will not return a shipped firearm to a non licensee.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:59:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:

Originally Posted By BIKECOP29:

So, I go home and pull the above off the ATF website. I then call the local ATF branch office. I get some administrative asst. I tell her I would like to speak to an agent about a shipping question. Well, she tells me there are no agents avaiable right now (must be out looking for Easter bunnies toting AKs and ARs) and to tell her what my question is.




You asked for it.

i7.photobucket.com/albums/y295/shop_rat45/4h860k.jpg



LMAO!! That is AWESOME!!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:05:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:25:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By 50cal:

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



Sorry dude, you're wrong on that one. Just as long as the receiving FFL logs it in his books, it doesn't matter if it came from Santa Claus in Christmas, In.



I believe there are some state to state differences on this one as well. I just did such a transaction. The dealer sent me his FFL via fax. I verified through EZ check and shipped it to him and verified that the firearm arrived. Notified buyer that it was there and my end of the deal is complete.



My seller wasn't fax capable. Would of avoided alot of the drama if he could of received a fax.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:39:53 PM EST
I like the idea of a copy of the ffl because I bring it with me to ups and then they are happy to see it going to a ffl.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:54:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



What?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:04:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 5:11:50 PM EST by scottryan]

Originally Posted By FITTER:


Exactly. Most dealers won't hand over a copy of their license to an unlicensed person. I've always done it FFL to FFL with no problems. If you want to try it the other way, may the Force be with you. I prefer to do it the easy way.



The easy way? By involving a middle man that doesn't need to be there?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:09:39 PM EST
IM'ed you BIKECOP. C.H.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:21:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By scottryan:
[You get the moron award for the day. The seller (licensed or unlicensed) must be supplied with the purchaser's end FFL (either by mail or fax).

You cannot operate of off the FFL EZ check and simply use that as proof and ship a gun.

Why do you think distributors have FFLs "on file" if they could just use the EZ check?



Nonsense. There is no requirement under federal law for a non licensee to have a copy of the FFLs license in order to ship a firearm TO an FFL.

The FFL EZ check simply allows you verify the shipping address and even that is not required by law.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:29:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By FITTER:



That is correct but many FFLs will not accept a shipped firearm from an unlicensed person. There is also no reason for an unlicensed person to request or be supplied with a copy of the FFLs license. The person shipping the firearm should just verify the FFLs shipping address using the ATF FFL EZ Check system.



You get the moron award for the day. The seller (licensed or unlicensed) must be supplied with the purchaser's end FFL (either by mail or fax).

You cannot operate of off the FFL EZ check and simply use that as proof and ship a gun.

Why do you think distributors have FFLs "on file" if they could just use the EZ check?




If the seller is unlicensed, they do not need a copy of the receiving FFL's license to ship the firearm. That is only required if the seller is an FFL.

Sec. 178.94 (page 58 of the ATF Federal firearms laws book, 2000 edition)

"A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios and relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the fransferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary."

There is no such requirement for non-FFLs. The ATF ezCheck is sufficient. Granted, having a copy of the receiving FFL's license may be a good idea from a recordkeeping standpoint, but it is not a legal requirement.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:12:13 PM EST
I stand corrected.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 6:15:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By scottryan:
I stand corrected.



Does that mean you admit that YOU are the moron?


I'm having a (NOYFB) shipped from (NOYFB) through an out-of-state FFL to my FFL here. He WON'T DO IT unless it's through another FFL. My guy will only work through another FFL holder. They take care of it properly, I don't sit and worry about it or wonder what to do, and I just go and pick it up when it arrives the next day. It doesn't cost much to make sure things go the way they should; in my opinion, it's worth it. Then again, I have more at stake here than just a bare AK receiver.


Maybe I should tell him "Yeah, but some guy on the Internet said... "

I don't know; maybe it's a NY thing.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 6:42:21 PM EST
I have run into this before.

While there is no requirement for the seller (non-ffl) to have a copy... I have had issues where UPS and other common carriers will refuse to ship a firearm without being shown a copy of an FFL matching the shipping address. Again this seems to vary state to state and is not a FEDERAL requirement.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 7:15:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
I stand corrected.



Does that mean you admit that YOU are the moron?



You were more wrong than he was.




Maybe I should tell him "Yeah, but some guy on the Internet said... "




You should tell him to read his ATF Publication 5300.4.



I don't know; maybe it's a NY thing.



Maybe, but chances are it has more to do with him being uninformed.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:27:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By FITTER:

Originally Posted By scottyran:
I stand corrected.



Does that mean you admit that YOU are the moron?



You were more wrong than he was.



I agree with that. LOL... it doesn't make me a "moron" just because the local dealers here want to deal in this way. Wrong that it ISN'T required by law, yes. That's obvious when you look at the original wording. I just don't see how the original poster's dealer is "wrong." If he wants to accept a firearm ONLY from another FFL, that's his prerogative, isn't it?




Maybe I should tell him "Yeah, but some guy on the Internet said... "




You should tell him to read his ATF Publication 5300.4.



I don't know; maybe it's a NY thing.

Maybe, but chances are it has more to do with him being uninformed.



Could be, but I'm not going to argue with them. I don't see their way as having any disadvantage; I actually prefer to have it between two dealers. I feel there is less room for error. I know, the original question was with regard to what the LEGALITIES are, and my answer did not cover that. My bad.

I don't think my current dealer is misinformed, to be honest. I think it's just the way they want to do business, to prevent problems.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:30:41 AM EST
What if the individual has a 03 FFL ( C&R ) and needs a ink-signed FFL for his records per ATF regulations ?

LB
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:50:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
What if the individual has a 03 FFL ( C&R ) and needs a ink-signed FFL for his records per ATF regulations ?

LB



The 03 FFL would need a certified copy of the receiving dealer's FFL only if he were shipping a C&R firearm. If the firearm was not C&R, his status is the same as an unlicensed individual.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:53:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:
He can send it to your dealer, but he needs to do it through another FFL in his area. Your FFL needs to send a copy to his FFL first.



No he doesn't.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 5:26:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:
I don't know; maybe it's a NY thing.

Maybe, but chances are it has more to do with him being uninformed.



There is no NYS requirement that a long gun be received from a FFL. There are FFLs who will only transfer a firearm that has been shipped from a FFL as part of their business practices.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 10:27:11 AM EST
I am definitely thinking in terms of handguns. You mean they would be treated different?
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 12:16:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By FITTER:
I am definitely thinking in terms of handguns. You mean they would be treated different?



In NY the NYSP regulate the licensing of handguns and NYS handgun dealers. Some dealers have been told by the NYSP or strongly advised to only accept a shipped handgun from a FFL.

In any case you should always ask an FFL if he will accept either a hand or long gun from a non licensee before it is shipped to him/her.
Top Top