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Posted: 12/14/2005 10:24:42 AM EDT
Just wondering, because Superman can stop bullets, but not a punch to the face.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:25:22 AM EDT
He can't deal with a round house kick to the face either.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:25:30 AM EDT
If this relates to Squatdog's full power shot, no.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:25:40 AM EDT
Short answer.

Maybe.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:27:03 AM EDT
Force = Mass x Velocity.

so it depends on the size of the person, how much weight they're putting into the punch, and how fast they swing their fist.

However, I think they'd be hard pressed to surpass the power of even a small 55 grain bullet traveling over 2000 fps.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:27:37 AM EDT
Chuck Norris can stop a punch to the face...and a bullet....
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:31:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Chuck Norris can stop a punch to the face...and a bullet....



Chuck Norris isn't Superman though
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:32:47 AM EDT
Chuck Norris isn't superman? Well... DUH!

Chuck Norris is not a wussy.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:33:49 AM EDT
It all depends on the "power factor" and "energy dump"


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Force = Mass x Velocity.

so it depends on the size of the person, how much weight they're putting into the punch, and how fast they swing their fist.

However, I think they'd be hard pressed to surpass the power of even a small 55 grain bullet traveling over 2000 fps.



Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:35:37 AM EDT
yea but can chuck norris stop mighty mouse
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:36:31 AM EDT
Do I smell a "Face-of-Truth" challenge?

T
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:37:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hdvespa:
yea but can chuck norris stop mighty mouse



That mouse would get lost in his beard
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:38:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:50:12 AM EDT by NewbHunter]
If it's an AR that is converted to 9mm then a punch is absolutely more powerful.
How do I know? Because I read in GD that a guy overheard a gun store employee telling a customer not to buy 9mm because it was like getting punched.
Since he didn't specify punch to the face, but only "punched", I think it is accurate to assume that he meant punched anywhere, so punch to the face beats getting shot with 9mm.

And don't go quoting me that FBI gelatin testing crap.
Everyone knows that gun store employees are the ultimate authority on ballistics information...followed closely by GD.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:39:34 AM EDT
it's not the power that matters so much as the effectiveness
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:41:50 AM EDT
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:46:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.



uh ,no. Because the mass of the gun is much greater than the mass of the bullet being fired out of it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:46:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:47:45 AM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.



Correct. Just more focused. Compare to punching someone with an icepick.

Or compare to being shot while wearing a vest. Same amount of force, just spread out more.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:49:01 AM EDT
jeez, nobody here took physics I guess
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:50:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Chuck Norris isn't superman? Well... DUH!

Chuck Norris is not a wussy.


Correct.

It would take more than falling off of a -- um, nevermind.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:51:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.



what would happen to his face doing the same with say an M1?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.



uh ,no. Because the mass of the gun is much greater than the mass of the bullet being fired out of it.



Right, but it has the same energy imparted to it. It just weighs 900-1000 times more than the bullet it's sending down. So it accelerates much more slowly rearward than the bullet does forward.

Same with your fist. You wouldn't have to accellerate it nearly as fast to develop the same energy because the mass part of the formula is several hundred times higher.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:56:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:59:08 AM EDT by NewbHunter]

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
jeez, nobody here took physics I guess



Yep.

Equal and opposite reaction doesn't take into account that the bullet is traveling at a much higher velocity by the time it hits its target than when it first leaves the bullet case and starts traveling down the barrel. Or that your rifle is accelerating much slower rearward towards your shoulder than a bullet accelerates forward.

I'm no physics expert, but wouldn't the equasion be f=ma?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:56:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Easy to answer: Just take the stock of your AR, hold it to a selected part of your face. Pull trigger.


The answer is no. Remember Newton? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The drill sgt at Ft Knox put the stock to his nads and ripped off a burst. The intent was to show that there is no recoil.



When I was a kid we talked a guy into doing that with a 12 guage3 inch magnum. Ohhhhh...that hurt!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:59:44 AM EDT
Let me punch you in the face and then I will shoot you in the face point blank then you can decide for yourself.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:01:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
Let me punch you in the face and then I will shoot you in the face point blank then you can decide for yourself.



I'm not Superman either!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:06:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:09:08 AM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
jeez, nobody here took physics I guess



Yep.

Equal and opposite reaction doesn't take into account that the bullet is traveling at a much higher velocity by the time it hits its target than when it first leaves the bullet case and starts traveling down the barrel. Or that your rifle is accelerating much slower rearward towards your shoulder than a bullet accelerates forward.

I'm no physics expert, but wouldn't the equasion be f=ma?



Yes it is.
But energy will be equal. Force will not necessarily be, due to deceleration. In other words that energy is dissipated more slowly from your rifle into your shoulder. A greater change in velocity, ie acceleration will equal greater force.

Due to the energy striking at a small point vs a large one the pressure, P=F/A, is sufficient to overcome what is necessary to disrupt tissue, penetrate and do internal damage, which is the key to killing your enemy whether it be bullet, battle axe, knife or icepick.

A way of looking at it would be to be punched or be shot and see which moves the body more. Actually the punch would but it does not generally do interanl damage.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:11:36 AM EDT
I found this:

Methods: Seven Olympic boxers from five weight classes delivered 18 straight punches to the frangible face of the Hybrid III dummy. Translational and rotational head acceleration, neck responses, and jaw pressure distribution were measured. High speed video recorded each blow and was used to determine punch velocity. Equilibrium was used to determine punch force, energy transfer, and power.

Results:
Punch force averaged 3427 (standard deviation (SD) 811) N, hand velocity 9.14 (SD 2.06) m/s, and effective punch mass 2.9 (SD 2.0) kg. Punch force was higher for the heavier weight classes, due primarily to a higher effective mass of the punch. Jaw load was 876 (SD 288) N. The peak translational acceleration was 58 (SD 13) g, rotational acceleration was 6343 (SD 1789) rad/s2, and neck shear was 994 (SD 318) N.

Conclusions: Olympic boxers deliver straight punches with high impact velocity and energy transfer. The severity of the punch increases with weight class.

Can someone convert the N and M/S into ft-lb?

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:13:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Force = Mass x Velocity.



Incorrect. Force = mass * acceleration. Momentum = mass * velocity.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:14:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:15:38 AM EDT by red_on_black]
Force does NOT equal mass times velocity. Force equals one-half mass times velocity squared:

F = 1/2 mv^2



DOH! K = 1/2 mv^2. I'll go cut a corner off of my physics card now...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:16:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:
jeez, nobody here took physics I guess



Yep.

Equal and opposite reaction doesn't take into account that the bullet is traveling at a much higher velocity by the time it hits its target than when it first leaves the bullet case and starts traveling down the barrel. Or that your rifle is accelerating much slower rearward towards your shoulder than a bullet accelerates forward.

I'm no physics expert, but wouldn't the equasion be f=ma?



That's true too. Not all the force is directed back, and some is eaten up in the walls of the chamber, the barrel and as heat.

Now I would think as long as the bullet is in the barrel the rifle is trying to move backwards as the bullet is trying to move forwards. The force wouldn't stop as soon as the bullet cleared the case.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:19:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 11:23:17 AM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By Essayons:
I found this:

Methods: Seven Olympic boxers from five weight classes delivered 18 straight punches to the frangible face of the Hybrid III dummy. Translational and rotational head acceleration, neck responses, and jaw pressure distribution were measured. High speed video recorded each blow and was used to determine punch velocity. Equilibrium was used to determine punch force, energy transfer, and power.

Results:
Punch force averaged 3427 (standard deviation (SD) 811) N, hand velocity 9.14 (SD 2.06) m/s, and effective punch mass 2.9 (SD 2.0) kg. Punch force was higher for the heavier weight classes, due primarily to a higher effective mass of the punch. Jaw load was 876 (SD 288) N. The peak translational acceleration was 58 (SD 13) g, rotational acceleration was 6343 (SD 1789) rad/s2, and neck shear was 994 (SD 318) N.

Conclusions: Olympic boxers deliver straight punches with high impact velocity and energy transfer. The severity of the punch increases with weight class.

Can someone convert the N and M/S into ft-lb?




EDITED-my mistake

That would be an erroneous way of looking at it anyhow.
A bullet may or may not dissipate all of its energy into the body. if it over penetrates it does not. Muzzle energy is not going to be the same as impact energy either.

Penetrating and doing CNS or vascular damage is why a bullet is more lethal than a punch but it is a mistake to assume that equals more force.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:21:20 AM EDT
I think a better comparison would be maximum pressure excerted. A fist has a certain velocity, mass, and surface area. A bullet has a much larger velocity, but much smaller mass and surface area. I think the pressure excerted by a bullet on your face would be much higher and thus do much more damage then a punch would. P = F / A fyi.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:24:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
I think a better comparison would be maximum pressure excerted. A fist has a certain velocity, mass, and surface area. A bullet has a much larger velocity, but much smaller mass and surface area. I think the pressure excerted by a bullet on your face would be much higher and thus do much more damage then a punch would. P = F / A fyi.



Absolutely but the question really refers to force and/or energy.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:35:56 AM EDT
Not if you're SquatDog!!

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:47:49 AM EDT
Really this is a meaningless comparison anyway. I think people can argue about for days and never come up with anything useful in this oranages-apples comparison.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:49:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Force = Mass x Velocity.

so it depends on the size of the person, how much weight they're putting into the punch, and how fast they swing their fist.

However, I think they'd be hard pressed to surpass the power of even a small 55 grain bullet traveling over 2000 fps.



Actually momentum = mass x velocity

force = mass x acceleration...everything else is derived
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:55:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
I think a better comparison would be maximum pressure excerted. A fist has a certain velocity, mass, and surface area. A bullet has a much larger velocity, but much smaller mass and surface area. I think the pressure excerted by a bullet on your face would be much higher and thus do much more damage then a punch would. P = F / A fyi.



Absolutely but the question really refers to force and/or energy.



well if the question is strictly which has more POWER, as in dE/dt, then I would imagine a bullet would still be much larger then a punch. A bullet going at an average of 1500 fps through 12 inches of flesh, would only take 1/1500 of a second. In 1/1500 of a second, the energy of the bullet is dissapated into deforming the bullet and flesh. As an engineering guess, I would say a punch would probably take 1/10 or at least 1/100 of a second to deposit its energy. So if the energy of a bullet and the energy of a punch are comparable, then the bullet will have atleast an order of magnitude more power.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:55:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Really this is a meaningless comparison anyway. I think people can argue about for days and never come up with anything useful in this oranages-apples comparison.





The general idea is that there are dumbfucks out there going around saying being shot with this or being shot with that is like being punched or less so. Force and energy can be studied or derived, I simply haven't the inclination to find the data and crunch out the numbers. But I am pretty sure what would be found on doing so.

You are correct, however, in that at the end of this discussion it is about internal damage which the average punch generally does to a minimal extent, as opposed to a bullet, even if the energy is less.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:00:53 PM EDT
You guys are leaving Superman out of the equation, this isn't about an ordinary human, or Chuck Norris.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:01:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Really this is a meaningless comparison anyway. I think people can argue about for days and never come up with anything useful in this oranages-apples comparison.





The general idea is that there are dumbfucks out there going around saying being shot with this or being shot with that is like being punched or less so. Force and energy can be studied or derived, I simply haven't the inclination to find the data and crunch out the numbers. But I am pretty sure what would be found on doing so.

You are correct, however, in that at the end of this discussion it is about internal damage which the average punch generally does to a minimal extent, as opposed to a bullet, even if the energy is less.



Well said.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:02:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
I think a better comparison would be maximum pressure excerted. A fist has a certain velocity, mass, and surface area. A bullet has a much larger velocity, but much smaller mass and surface area. I think the pressure excerted by a bullet on your face would be much higher and thus do much more damage then a punch would. P = F / A fyi.



Absolutely but the question really refers to force and/or energy.



well if the question is strictly which has more POWER, as in dE/dt, then I would imagine a bullet would still be much larger then a punch. A bullet going at an average of 1500 fps through 12 inches of flesh, would only take 1/1500 of a second. In 1/1500 of a second, the energy of the bullet is dissapated into deforming the bullet and flesh. As an engineering guess, I would say a punch would probably take 1/10 or at least 1/100 of a second to deposit its energy. So if the energy of a bullet and the energy of a punch are comparable, then the bullet will have atleast an order of magnitude more power.



that is a good observation. I took the question really to be more about energy as most laypersons don't understand the true definition of power and typically confuse it with force or energy.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:37:00 PM EDT
When you guys are referring to a recoiling weapon, remember that it is momentum that is conserved rather than energy.

See my post from the archives here for a full explanation including the math.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:49:39 PM EDT
Energy transfer is bunk. All that matters is destroyed and damaged tissue, however it was damaged or destroyed. A boxers punch will not put a hole in the skull, pressurize the brain tissue and force it out of every orifice in the head. Thats why this question is stupid.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:53:27 PM EDT
It all depends on the muzzle velocity of the punch being thrown... Pre ban or post ban fist? What caliber of fist?

...I got nothin'
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:10:06 PM EDT
The POWER from pretty much any bullet is much higher then any punch. ENERGY of the bullet is also much higher.

However, the punch has greater MOMENTUM.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:18:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chuckhammer:
When you guys are referring to a recoiling weapon, remember that it is momentum that is conserved rather than energy.

See my post from the archives here for a full explanation including the math.



I disagree. Conservation of both momentum and energy are a given. Force is another matter.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:27:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By chuckhammer:
When you guys are referring to a recoiling weapon, remember that it is momentum that is conserved rather than energy.

See my post from the archives here for a full explanation including the math.



I disagree. Conservation of both momentum and energy are a given. Force is another matter.



If KE were conserved when you fired a high-power rifle, you would not be firing another shot.

This isn't an opinion to which you can disagree, bro, it's a fact. I'll bet my BSME on it.

Did you read my archived post? It's all in there.

here's a web page explaining it further.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:30:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motocam25:

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Chuck Norris can stop a punch to the face...and a bullet....



Chuck Norris isn't Superman though



yea, he cant fly
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:30:54 PM EDT
You guys are lost.

The dude rolled a "kryptonite knuckles" with a +4 power dump for face shots. It'd be stupid to use a bullet when superman has a bullet defense +12 skin.

If you guys can't figure this one out then you're going to be "undead chow" when the zombies show up.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:31:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 2:40:16 PM EDT by pillbox]
While not scientific, Having had both a punch to the face, and a .223 remington SP(remington brand) fired from a Mini14 at a distance of 74 yards skip off my left scapula(I was facing shoulder toward the shooter), knock a 50 cent piece size plug of meat off/exposed bone, and left lead that had to be dug out (screwed up a brand new uniform shirt too lol)...I will opt for a punch to the face. the .223 caused me to spin and sat me on my ass...I couldnt raise my left arm at all for most of a week. initially I felt mental confusion as well...didnt know I had been shot..didnt know what had just happend(where did that ball bat come from lol). didnt hear the shot either, but my ears were ringing to beat the band.
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