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Posted: 8/22/2004 5:20:21 PM EST
Well, he didnt earn it. He got it through other peoples oversights/fuckups. The Korean actually beat him.
I know the rules and I dont think he should be stripped of his medal BUT I think any man of honor would walk up to the Korean guy and give it to him.

What do you think?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:21:06 PM EST
I would give it up
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:24:52 PM EST
I agree. I had a big argument over this at the bar tonite and I also have ben a victim of this exact same thing in a skydiving competition so I understand more than most. I still have that silver medal.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:27:33 PM EST
The games are not just about winning medals but showing sportsmanship and doing what is right. Not giving the medal up shows a lack of class and gives the US a black eye.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:28:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
The Korean actually beat him.

What do you think?



I think you answered your own the question.

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:32:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 5:32:57 PM EST by DK-Prof]
had it been a JUDGING error (like a judge later said "oh yeah, I guess maybe I should have given the Korean a higher score") then it's just too bad, and Hamm should absolutely keep the gold.

But since it was essentially a clerical error, they should AT A MINIMUM give another Gold Medal to the Korean dude.

If Hamm has honor and integrity, he will give up his gold, since he didn't earn it, but was given it by mistake.



I heard a story where the IOC or some official said that they don't change things after the event is over, but that is clealy bullshit, because the DID change it for those canadian figureskaters or whatever it was two years ago.

If I was the Korean dude, or the head of the Korean team, I would be completely insane with anger until they make this right.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:35:22 PM EST
He competed to the best of his ability and did not do anything to create this problem, the Koreans did not protest anything at the time of the meet. Days later they reviewed video and discovered that if they had better judges they would have won. How is this Paul Hamm's fault?

Every meet has a protest period, if you wanna protest you need to do it during the protest period. It is VERY John Kerry of you to come back a week later and say,,hey I could have won. The korean guy lost because his coach and team let him down by not watching what was happening at the time it happened. Nobody cheated, nobody lied, nobody from the US team caused this to happen. Plenty of races are lost in the pits.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:36:26 PM EST
It's hard to say what you would do if your not actually in his shoes. They always talk about how comitted and dedicated these atheletes are to the gold medal, but I would love to see him give it to the Korean. I wont knock him if he doesn't, but it would ultimately give him something bigger and better in the eyes of the world and something no other athelete could take from him. It would galvanize his commitment to honor, sacrifice, and respect. What else could you possibly question him on if he did that?

"Some things in life were not meant to be and some things were meant to be more than they are." Thats how I would characterize his sacrifice if he did give it up. He's not losing anything really. He's gaining alot more in return.

We're Americans, we're bigger and better than gold medals!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:37:02 PM EST
I think he would get far more mileage as an Olympic hero if he gave his medal to the Korean guy. I dont expect the IOC to change their rule midstream.
It was different for the figure skaters, the judge cheated. Here its a clerical error.
I couldnt honestly accept that medal.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:37:28 PM EST
Winning a gold medal is one thing.
Being enough of a man and a sportsman to give up something that precious, out of principal, is something entirely different. He could become a bigger hero to a lot of people.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:38:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 5:39:47 PM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:41:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 5:43:29 PM EST by mcgrubbs]
Flame suit on......



No, and here's why.....

Two years ago, a Canadian couple got their performance shit on a by a dumbass judge, and by the IOC. The Russians should have never been given gold medals. When they did recieve them, they acted like total assholes.....like they had actually earned them.

Well you know what?? Everything comes full circle in life. And something just came full circle.

Also IOC rules prevent taking the medal back from Hamm. There is no expectation by the IOC, or the USOC for him to give it back.

This was a judging error. The judges in question did not properly prepare. They should have known the start score for that event. They judged on the basis of their own mistake.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:41:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
He competed to the best of his ability and did not do anything to create this problem, the Koreans did not protest anything at the time of the meet. Days later they reviewed video and discovered that if they had better judges they would have won. How is this Paul Hamm's fault?

Every meet has a protest period, if you wanna protest you need to do it during the protest period. It is VERY John Kerry of you to come back a week later and say,,hey I could have won. The korean guy lost because his coach and team let him down by not watching what was happening at the time it happened. Nobody cheated, nobody lied, nobody from the US team caused this to happen. Plenty of races are lost in the pits.



I didnt ask if the medal "BELONGED" to him. I asked if he deserved it. Or better yet, earned it.

I dont argue its his medal to keep.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:42:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
He competed to the best of his ability and did not do anything to create this problem, the Koreans did not protest anything at the time of the meet. Days later they reviewed video and discovered that if they had better judges they would have won. How is this Paul Hamm's fault?

Every meet has a protest period, if you wanna protest you need to do it during the protest period. It is VERY John Kerry of you to come back a week later and say,,hey I could have won. The korean guy lost because his coach and team let him down by not watching what was happening at the time it happened. Nobody cheated, nobody lied, nobody from the US team caused this to happen. Plenty of races are lost in the pits.



+1
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:44:27 PM EST
Wait, doesnt everybody get a medal?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:45:48 PM EST
I think anyone who keeps a medal under those circumstances has no honor. He didnt earn it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:51:07 PM EST
It's already a tarnished Gold Medal.
He should give it up and save his honor.
Why would you want to keep a metal you didn't earn, but got it as a clerical mistake.
It's not about the medal but what it represents.
Hamn should give up the Gold and Ask for the silver he did earn.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:55:15 PM EST
I have a hard time believing this thread.

I have heard for the las t week about how dumb, stupid, and inconsequential the Olympics are. And now we have a thread debating a guy and a medal with the word "honor" repeatedly being thrown about.

And yes, it was a judging error. The judges were in error. Their mistakes caused the other guy to not be judged correctly. The rules are very clear about this.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 5:58:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
I have a hard time believing this thread.

I have heard for the las t week about how dumb, stupid, and inconsequential the Olympics are. And now we have a thread debating a guy and a medal with the word "honor" repeatedly being thrown about.

And yes, it was a judging error. The judges were in error. Their mistakes caused the other guy to not be judged correctly. The rules are very clear about this.



Sorry, your comment has been stolen from you thru a clerical error.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:02:09 PM EST
that's fine.....

It's right above your post. Not really stolen, just obfuscated in your quote.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:03:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
He competed to the best of his ability and did not do anything to create this problem, the Koreans did not protest anything at the time of the meet. Days later they reviewed video and discovered that if they had better judges they would have won. How is this Paul Hamm's fault?

Every meet has a protest period, if you wanna protest you need to do it during the protest period. It is VERY John Kerry of you to come back a week later and say,,hey I could have won. The korean guy lost because his coach and team let him down by not watching what was happening at the time it happened. Nobody cheated, nobody lied, nobody from the US team caused this to happen. Plenty of races are lost in the pits.



I didnt ask if the medal "BELONGED" to him. I asked if he deserved it. Or better yet, earned it.

I dont argue its his medal to keep.



+1

Exactly - he is certainly ENTITLED to keep it, according to the rules.

But it is just as clear that he doesn't actually DESERVE it, since he only got it as a result of a clerical error - not his actual performance.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:14:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 6:20:37 PM EST by nightstalker]
What was the real "level" of the Korean guy's routine. They gave him a start level of 10.0 in the first go around, then 9.9 for the finals. Which is correct? Don't you think the Koreans had a responsibility to protest before the medals were awarded? Again, was it a true 10.0 start level or a 9.9? I don't know but the US gymnasts were told right before they did the high bar that their routines were not going to get as high a start level so they tried to change them at the last minute. These are routines that they've practiced for months, then had to change to suit the minds of the judges. That wasn't fair either. It seems that some DMV employees have made their way into judging.

edit

Maybe the Korean coaches should take the blame. I remember in 68 some coach didn't get some track athletes to the meet on time having misread the schedule. I also remember the 3 chances the Russkies got to win a basketball game.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:14:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
He competed to the best of his ability and did not do anything to create this problem, the Koreans did not protest anything at the time of the meet. Days later they reviewed video and discovered that if they had better judges they would have won. How is this Paul Hamm's fault?

Every meet has a protest period, if you wanna protest you need to do it during the protest period. It is VERY John Kerry of you to come back a week later and say,,hey I could have won. The korean guy lost because his coach and team let him down by not watching what was happening at the time it happened. Nobody cheated, nobody lied, nobody from the US team caused this to happen. Plenty of races are lost in the pits.



I didnt ask if the medal "BELONGED" to him. I asked if he deserved it. Or better yet, earned it.

I dont argue its his medal to keep.



+1

Exactly - he is certainly ENTITLED to keep it, according to the rules.

But it is just as clear that he doesn't actually DESERVE it, since he only got it as a result of a clerical error - not his actual performance.



You sir, are correct.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:18:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
What was the real "level" of the Korean guy's routine. They gave him a start level of 10.0 in the first go around, then 9.9 for the finals. Which is correct? Don't you think the Koreans had a responsibility to protest before the medals were awarded? Again, was it a true 10.0 start level or a 9.9? I don't know but the US gymnasts were told right before they did the high bar that their routines were not going to get as high a start level so they tried to change them at the last minute. These are routines that they've practiced for months, then had to change to suit the minds of the judges. That wasn't fair either. It seems that some DMV employees have made their way into judging.




In hindsight, it turns out it was a total clerical fuckup on the judges part. The only reason he has the medal now is because some other people fucked up. Not because he won the event.
He didnt EARN his medal. It was given to him.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:25:23 PM EST
This why I hate sports where the judges determine who wins. At least in Basketball, football etc, there are refs but if you play well enough they cant steal it from you.

How is Ham going to handle interviews? Everytime, he has to talk they will ask him about this. That is enough to say fuck it and give the other guy the medal.

But its also about money so I dont know whats going to happen!
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:25:47 PM EST
Regardless of whose fault it was, how could you keep a medal that you know you didn’t win? The whole purpose of the medal is to recognize an achievement – otherwise it’s just a piece of metal attached to a cloth ribbon.

If you want the medal without the achievement, why train and go to the Olympics anyway? Just find a store that sells them and buy yourself one (and maybe pick up a Congressional Medal of Honor and a few Purple Hearts while you’re at it).
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:30:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 6:33:28 PM EST by Merrell]
Didn't see the match (not watching the Olympics) but a quick glance at the articles suggest that Hamm is following in the footsteps of self-centered athletes like Dennis Rodman rather than genuine sportsmen like Cal Ripken. What more should we expect from a generation raised on pro wrestling?

The kid could have made a legend of himself by giving up the medal, now he'll always have an asterisk after his name.

Edited to add: one has to wonder if he was raised by parent(s) telling him "you are the greatest" or parents who taught him the Golden Rule.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:33:07 PM EST
Hey, look, we're #1 for "Guns and Gear".

If they want to give the Korean guy another gold they will. It hardly makes sense that athletes have to judge their own performance. If that was the case the crying Russian bitch would have a gold too.

Hamm beat the score he knew he had to to win. Maybe they should keep the scores secret till the very end?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:35:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
Hey, look, we're #1 for "Guns and Gear".

If they want to give the Korean guy another gold they will. It hardly makes sense that athletes have to judge their own performance. If that was the case the crying Russian bitch would have a gold too.

Hamm beat the score he knew he had to to win. Maybe they should keep the scores secret till the very end?



You have no idea what you're talking about.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 6:58:03 PM EST
Mistakes are made while judging gymnastic events all the time. He came from 12th to 1st and nothing can change that. IF they were to go back and check the entire event, there would be many errors that could affect the standings. He should keep his stupid necklace.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:14:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 7:14:54 PM EST by mmx1]

Originally Posted By dave223:
Mistakes are made while judging gymnastic events all the time. He came from 12th to 1st and nothing can change that. IF they were to go back and check the entire event, there would be many errors that could affect the standings. He should keep his stupid necklace.



sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/gymnastics/columns/story?id=1865378

Exactly. According to the article above, the replay also shows the Judges missed an error in Yang's performance that would have cost him .200. You don't see the South Korean coaches bringing that up. Hamm doesn't seem like he's really being a dick about it. He earned his medal.

At least he's not being a whiny bitch:
sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/gymnastics/news/story?id=1865326


Asked if the American was a worthy opponent, she said: "I've seen a much tougher opposition than her. Let's see how long she can remain on top. Can she keep going and compete in two more Olympics like myself."

"No, well, you better write that Patterson is a great champion and she has a great future," she added sarcastically.




Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:16:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By dave223:
Mistakes are made while judging gymnastic events all the time. He came from 12th to 1st and nothing can change that. IF they were to go back and check the entire event, there would be many errors that could affect the standings. He should keep his stupid necklace.

+1

IMO, he earned it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:19:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By dave223:
Mistakes are made while judging gymnastic events all the time.



There has been a protest, it's been declined. Hamm said tonight that he would accept the official judgement. Fair to me.

The US protested the team scores over judging errors (an almost parallel situation). This was also declined.

Does he deserve it? The governing commission will decide. The competitor and their fans don't for a reason.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 7:23:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By mmx1:
sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/gymnastics/columns/story?id=1865378

Exactly. According to the article above, the replay also shows the Judges missed an error in Yang's performance that would have cost him .200. You don't see the South Korean coaches bringing that up. Hamm doesn't seem like he's really being a dick about it. He earned his medal.




"If Yang's performance was reviewed to award points for the start value -- the level of difficulty of the routine -- then he should also be deducted two tenths of a point for four holds he committed, Hamm said. A gymnast is allowed only three stoppages in a parallel bar routine.
.
.
.
If Yang's start value was increased to 10.0 and then the two tenths were deducted, Avery said Yang would have received a 9.612. "That would be the honest score for the routine," he said."


So there!!!

Hamm EARNED his gold medal because even AFTER reviewing the tape - the Korean STILL scored lower. So shut the fuck up all you guys who said "Hamm didn't earn it"


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:07:13 PM EST
www.usolympicteam.com/11831_23889.htm

Four great men's gymnastics teams, separated by the most minuscule of points, head into today's Olympic team finals, and one will go home unhappy.

Japan finished first in team qualifying with 232.134 points, followed by the USA (230.41), Romania (230.019) and China (229.507).
The slate is wiped clean for the team finals, and perfection will be an absolute must, given the tight race between the four top world powers in men's gymnastics. In team qualifications, each country puts up five gymnasts on each of the six events and the lowest score does not count.

However, in team finals each country puts up three men and all three scores count. That's different from previous Olympics.

How little room will there be for error tonight? If you add the qualification scores for each country's top men, Japan has a 1.539 lead over the USA; the USA leads Romania by only 0.087; and the USA leads China by just 0.2.

The U.S. men have set a goal of winning the first team gold since the 1984 Los Angeles Games -- the only time the U.S. men have won a gymnastics team gold.

And already there's a question. Adrian Stoica, head of the technical committee of the International Gymnastics Federation (and secretary general of the Romanian Gymnastics Federation), notified USA Gymnastics on Saturday morning that a move in the high bar routines of Blaine Wilson, Brett McClure and Jason Gatson would be devalued by 0.1 of a point.

The three had done the move in international competition the last three years without being devalued. Japan's Sawao Kato, chairman of the high bar judges, determined the "catch" move was a lesser value skill.

Wilson and Gatson made changes in their high bar routine, but McClure did not. Wilson fell on his substitute move, scoring 8.862. Gatson made a few adjustments, scoring 9.337. However, McClure managed to pull out a 9.662.

In part, that is why the USA will go with McClure (along with Paul and Morgan Hamm) in high bar in the team finals. The U.S. men are holding their breath that the judges will feel the same about McClure's unchanged routine because they will need every last tenth of a point to make the medals stand.

"Overall, it's a distraction, and you don't want distractions at the Olympic Games," USA Gymnastics President Bob Colarossi says.

"But when you get to the championship level, you have to be able to think on your feet. At the end of the day, we still believe the best guys will be at the top of the podium."
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:23:03 PM EST
Paul Hamm shouldn't be forced to give up his medal. They say these are the oversights that lead to things like instant replay. If they feel the other gymnast deserves a gold, give him one. They stripped an american of the gold years ago for testing positive for a substance that is no longer considered controlled but you don't see them bending over backwards to give her back her gold either even though she's planning on petitioning for it.

Paul Hamm and the others took the awards as they were handed out at the time. No one complained, so it should be over. Learn from your mistakes and move on.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:36:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
What was the real "level" of the Korean guy's routine. They gave him a start level of 10.0 in the first go around, then 9.9 for the finals. Which is correct? Don't you think the Koreans had a responsibility to protest before the medals were awarded? Again, was it a true 10.0 start level or a 9.9? I don't know but the US gymnasts were told right before they did the high bar that their routines were not going to get as high a start level so they tried to change them at the last minute. These are routines that they've practiced for months, then had to change to suit the minds of the judges. That wasn't fair either. It seems that some DMV employees have made their way into judging.




In hindsight, it turns out it was a total clerical fuckup on the judges part. The only reason he has the medal now is because some other people fucked up. Not because he won the event.
He didnt EARN his medal. It was given to him.



He earned the Silver Medal. He was awarded the Gold because of a clerical error on the judges part and ignorance on the part of the Korean coaches.

I would swap it for the Silver Medal and ride that pony all the way to a multi-million $$$ contract for some product!

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:40:37 PM EST
They just showed the tape on tv about the koreans routine on the bars and showed he used 4 different holds on the bar only allowed 3 holds max .200 deduction. so even if they didn't mess up on the scoring hamm would still have won the gold
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:51:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By furball75:
They just showed the tape on tv about the koreans routine on the bars and showed he used 4 different holds on the bar only allowed 3 holds max .200 deduction. so even if they didn't mess up on the scoring hamm would still have won the gold



Sounds like Hamm won it fair and square.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:57:05 PM EST
This being a judged event makes it different. It's a lot like figure skating in the winter games. They always 'leave a little room' for someone to come out on top. The judges knew exactly how many points that they had to award Hamm to give him the gold. If they thought the Korean was better he would have won. They judged Hamm to be the best. They knew what the scores were. It's not like he actually ran a foot race and came in second but because of the camera angle it looked like first. The judges placed him where they wanted him. All the start value stuff is irrelavant.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:11:29 PM EST
The Koreans are in no position to complain about bad sportsmanship.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:44:30 PM EST
Hamm missed out on a golden opportunity... multi million dollar endorsements, commercials, etc. and epitimy of fair sportsmanship. If he gave up the gold medal he would have been much more than a olympic gold medalist. Now, he's just a olympic gold medal winner that nobody really gives a shit about and has very little marketable potential. Even if he gave up the gold medal now it would be too little too late as everybody will just say he did it under pressure.

Too bad.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:07:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 7:09:12 PM EST by AR-15Fan]
I don't think even with the extra .1 starting value they would have scored the Korean high enough to win. Yes it's supposed to be based entirely on deductions but they would have merely taken off more for the items they already deducted for to get roughly the same score. He didn't do a good enough routine to actually get a full .1 higher than he did IMO. ALot of it is still what the judges think they deserve, and he got about the score he would have regardless of the starting value IMO...

And as stated if they went back and reveiwed everything who knows who would have won, since there are plenty of mistakes that went un-noticed... Hamm earned and deserves his medal, I wouldn't give it up unless the authorities changed the results...
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:45:23 AM EST
BUMP FOR THE FOLKS WHO HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION!

Upon final review of his routine, his performance should only have been reviewed out of a 9.8 and not a 10.0. The error in awarding him a rountine out of a 9.9 WAS a judging error, but it was one in the Korean's favor! The true revised score, ALL OTHER THING BEING EQUAL would mean a net loss of a tenth.

Paul Hamm still won the Gold just as he deserved to. He also deserves to keep it. For those of you who are bitching about his not giving it back, just wait a little bit before jumping to conclusions. This stuff doesn't get settled in 24 hours. The final review is quite conclusive.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:50:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:57:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By furball75:
They just showed the tape on tv about the koreans routine on the bars and showed he used 4 different holds on the bar only allowed 3 holds max .200 deduction. so even if they didn't mess up on the scoring hamm would still have won the gold



Upon further review Hamm is the Gold Medal winning All Around Champion!


He will not be remembered as such but will instead be remembered as the guy who 'got' the Gold because of a scoring error.

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:03:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By furball75:
They just showed the tape on tv about the koreans routine on the bars and showed he used 4 different holds on the bar only allowed 3 holds max .200 deduction. so even if they didn't mess up on the scoring hamm would still have won the gold




But that's a difference in SUBJECTIVE scoring of the event, and such errors have (and always will be around, and are accepted as such) - that's different from a clerical mistake in recording the difficulty level of the routine BEFORE the fact.

I still think the Korean should be given the Gold - in addition to Hamm (of course Hamm is entitled to keep his Gold - that should not even be up for discussion)
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:07:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:14:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:20:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Well, he didnt earn it. He got it through other peoples oversights/fuckups. The Korean actually beat him.
I know the rules and I dont think he should be stripped of his medal BUT I think any man of honor would walk up to the Korean guy and give it to him.

What do you think?




In the all around? I don't think the Korean beat him.




With subjective scoring there will always be room for argument in any event. That, however was not my question.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:32:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Well, he didnt earn it. He got it through other peoples oversights/fuckups. The Korean actually beat him.
I know the rules and I dont think he should be stripped of his medal BUT I think any man of honor would walk up to the Korean guy and give it to him.

What do you think?




In the all around? I don't think the Korean beat him.






With subjective scoring there will always be room for argument in any event. That, however was not my question.




Here's the real question:

"Should Captain Pooby have to wait until ALL the facts are in before roasting our guy and demanding he give the medal back?"
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