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Posted: 8/24/2013 5:46:11 AM EDT
I have been in the military for a while and I am considering getting out I meet all the requirements for Federal LE service minus age I am at 36 now. So will Federal LE jobs waive the age? I thought I read somewhere about Isabella vs state dept that the age requirement is waived but I am not positive. Thanks
Link Posted: 8/24/2013 6:12:37 AM EDT
Nothing is really waived...I am sure the specific answer is on the OPM website somewhere.

You do indeed "stop the clock" by being in the military.

I stopped wasting my time as a LEO and entered federal LE at age 29 (wish someone had convinced me earlier!!!), so I never had to worry about "the clock". It did take months after I started the job to iron out the details of "buying back" my military service .

IM me if you need more details, I can get them quickly from my admin office.
Link Posted: 8/24/2013 6:18:06 AM EDT
From OPM:

Age Qualifications

On July 2, 2008, the Merit Systems Protection Board (Board) issued a final decision in Robert P. Isabella v. Department of State and Office of Personnel Management, 2008 M.S.P.B. 146, that affects preference eligibles who apply for federal positions having a maximum entry-age restriction. The Board decided that the agency's failure to waive the maximum entry-age requirements for Mr. Isabella, a preference eligible veteran, violated his rights under the Veteran Employment Opportunities Act of 1998 (VEOA) because there was no demonstration that a maximum entry-age was essential to the performance of the position.

Based on the Board's decision in Isabella, qualified preference eligibles may now apply and be considered for vacancies regardless of whether they meet the maximum age requirements identified at 5 U.S.C. 3307. In order to determine whether it must waive a maximum entry-age requirement, an agency must first analyze the affected position to determine whether age is essential to the performance of the position. If the agency decides age is not essential to the position, then it must waive the maximum entry-age requirement for veterans' preference eligible applicants. In instances where the maximum entry-age is waived, the corresponding mandatory retirement age for these individuals will also be higher because it will be reached after 20 years of Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) service for the entitlement to an immediate enhanced annuity.

The same principles set forth above would apply to appointments to other types of positions for which the setting of maximum entry ages are authorized under 5 U.S.C. § 3307. These types of positions are: (1) firefighters, (2) air traffic controllers, (3) United States Park police, (4) nuclear materials couriers, and (5) customs and border patrol officers (subject to the Federal Employees etirement System, 5 U.S.C. § 8401 et seq. only).
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http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/veterans-services/vet-guide/
Link Posted: 8/24/2013 8:23:21 AM EDT
I believe it depends on the agency/position too, but I can't imagine any that don't allow military service to stop the clock.  You should be able to look at their employment FAQ pages and they have (all that I have looked at anyway) explicitly state their agency's policy.
Link Posted: 8/25/2013 12:46:59 AM EDT
I know DHS/CBP allows vets to apply/hired after the 37yr old age cut off.
Link Posted: 8/25/2013 1:01:42 AM EDT

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Quoted:


I know DHS/CBP allows vets to apply/hired after the 37yr old age cut off.
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You've got a year to get in. The FAM Service waivered up to 40 during the big push, but they don't anymore.

 
Link Posted: 8/25/2013 2:50:22 AM EDT
Legally the answer is any federal law enforcement agency can credit you with your active duty military time on a one for one basis over 37.  However they are not obligated to unless certain criteria apply.  Many folks mis-interpret the whole Isabella case.  They think Vets automatically can apply and have to be considered.  its not true at all.  A few facts to consider:

Case Facts
A) Isabella was a Merits Systems Protection Board case (MSPB).
B) MSPB cases are between one person and one agency.
C) MSPB cases are based on the unique set of facts and circumstances to the ONE person and ONE agency.
D) MSPB decisions only are enforceable to the ONE person and ONE agency.  Different folks at the same agency or different folks at another agency can't claim it automatically applies to them.  They can argue it does or reference it, but the agency is under NO legal obligation to apply it.  
E) Isabella is all about the fact they stopped processing him because he was nearing the cut off age, not because he passed it.
F) OPM rules state you can't DQ on what "might" happen...only what has.  
G) Isabella argued us using OPM rules.
H) DSS argued "OPM rules state you have to be 37....."
I) One MSPB member asked why OPM has a 37 rule and instead of seeking out the answer from OPM, DSS lawyers indicated it was to have 20 years in for retirement by the mandatory out the door of 57.
J) MSPB ruled since they stopped processing his application on the me fact he was approaching the cut-off and DSS gave no indication that age/physical capabilities were required to so the job, they ruled Isabella's application had to processed.  
K) All the ruling means is Isabella had to be PROCESSED despite his age, until he was DQ'd for another reason or ranked in the hiring pool and then hired or his certification expired before he hit the top of the list.

OPM FACTS
A) Folks say OPM issued a policy to agencies saying that had to hire Vets for these positions. That is NOT true
B) OPM issued a "Memorandum" advising of the facts and policy.
C) The OPM memorandum states: "In order to determine whether it must waive a maximum entry-age requirement, an AGENCY must first analyze the affected position to determine whether age is essential to the performance of the position. If the AGENCY decides age is not essential to the position, then it must waive the maximum entry-age requirement for veterans’ preference eligible applicants."  As you can see, the ball is not in the applicants court at all, but the agency who can decided based upon their mission and daily activities if age matters.  And agin, it doesn't mean you ar hired....only that they have to process you!
D) In the same memo, OPM gives another "out" to agencies.  They state "Agencies are reminded that they are still required to apply suitability, occupational qualification standards, and medical qualification determinations when waiving the maximum entry-age requirements for preference eligible veterans."  Guess what that means?  Older folks come with more baggage and the rules on what baggage you are allowed to bring are not being changed or accommodated.

Summary
1) There is no LAW that says they have to accept your application.
2)  Each agency can determine if age is essential.
3)  If an agency does not determine age is essential, they are only required to process you and not necessarily hire you.
4)  You can still be DQ'd along the way for any other hiring standards.
5)  iIf an agency says "no" you can try to file a MSPB and wait a few years for it to be heard and pay a few grand in legal fees. I have seen it done a few times now.  So far NOBODY has won.  It seems agencies are using OPM regulations, Fedederal Employee Retirement System (FERS) language and the testimony of Senators/Congressman who enacted the enhanced retirement for law enforcement positions which itself states "LEO position must be sufficiently rigorous that it is required to be filled only by young and physically vigorous individual...".

Bottom line, it's not a law, nor required and your mileage will vary by agency.

By the way, guess where Isabella is now?   I will tell you this.....he is not an agent today!
Link Posted: 8/25/2013 7:07:02 AM EDT
Joey, thanks for posting that, I didn't know!

FWIW, at least among people I know, I have never seen someone not get "considered under Isabella", as it looks like would be the proper term.

One of the absolute finest individuals I have ever had the pleasure of working with entered FLETC at, I believe, age 41, as he was a USMC vet. At age 47, when he transferred to another office, he was still smoking most of the guys half his age in PT, and his mind was sharp as a tack. My boss just mentioned him the other day, he left such an impact on our office.
Link Posted: 8/25/2013 7:23:13 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Legally the answer is any federal law enforcement agency can credit you with your active duty military time on a one for one basis over 37.  However they are not obligated to unless certain criteria apply.  Many folks mis-interpret the whole Isabella case.  They think Vets automatically can apply and have to be considered.  its not true at all.  A few facts to consider:

Case Facts
A) Isabella was a Merits Systems Protection Board case (MSPB).
B) MSPB cases are between one person and one agency.
C) MSPB cases are based on the unique set of facts and circumstances to the ONE person and ONE agency.
D) MSPB decisions only are enforceable to the ONE person and ONE agency.  Different folks at the same agency or different folks at another agency can't claim it automatically applies to them.  They can argue it does or reference it, but the agency is under NO legal obligation to apply it.  
E) Isabella is all about the fact they stopped processing him because he was nearing the cut off age, not because he passed it.
F) OPM rules state you can't DQ on what "might" happen...only what has.  
G) Isabella argued us using OPM rules.
H) DSS argued "OPM rules state you have to be 37....."
I) One MSPB member asked why OPM has a 37 rule and instead of seeking out the answer from OPM, DSS lawyers indicated it was to have 20 years in for retirement by the mandatory out the door of 57.
J) MSPB ruled since they stopped processing his application on the me fact he was approaching the cut-off and DSS gave no indication that age/physical capabilities were required to so the job, they ruled Isabella's application had to processed.  
K) All the ruling means is Isabella had to be PROCESSED despite his age, until he was DQ'd for another reason or ranked in the hiring pool and then hired or his certification expired before he hit the top of the list.

OPM FACTS
A) Folks say OPM issued a policy to agencies saying that had to hire Vets for these positions. That is NOT true
B) OPM issued a "Memorandum" advising of the facts and policy.
C) The OPM memorandum states: "In order to determine whether it must waive a maximum entry-age requirement, an AGENCY must first analyze the affected position to determine whether age is essential to the performance of the position. If the AGENCY decides age is not essential to the position, then it must waive the maximum entry-age requirement for veterans’ preference eligible applicants."  As you can see, the ball is not in the applicants court at all, but the agency who can decided based upon their mission and daily activities if age matters.  And agin, it doesn't mean you ar hired....only that they have to process you!
D) In the same memo, OPM gives another "out" to agencies.  They state "Agencies are reminded that they are still required to apply suitability, occupational qualification standards, and medical qualification determinations when waiving the maximum entry-age requirements for preference eligible veterans."  Guess what that means?  Older folks come with more baggage and the rules on what baggage you are allowed to bring are not being changed or accommodated.

Summary
1) There is no LAW that says they have to accept your application.
2)  Each agency can determine if age is essential.
3)  If an agency does not determine age is essential, they are only required to process you and not necessarily hire you.
4)  You can still be DQ'd along the way for any other hiring standards.
5)  iIf an agency says "no" you can try to file a MSPB and wait a few years for it to be heard and pay a few grand in legal fees. I have seen it done a few times now.  So far NOBODY has won.  It seems agencies are using OPM regulations, Fedederal Employee Retirement System (FERS) language and the testimony of Senators/Congressman who enacted the enhanced retirement for law enforcement positions which itself states "LEO position must be sufficiently rigorous that it is required to be filled only by young and physically vigorous individual...".

Bottom line, it's not a law, nor required and your mileage will vary by agency.

By the way, guess where Isabella is now?   I will tell you this.....he is not an agent today!
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Good answer but i think its lost on most unless one is an HR type, or a lawyer.
Link Posted: 8/26/2013 7:24:49 PM EDT
Or an agent and a lawyer!
Link Posted: 8/26/2013 11:51:11 PM EDT
Certain Agencies will have a waiver during major pushes.  Someone mentioned the Air Marshals, the Border Patrol also had one during their last big push and there has been talk of another one.  You don't have any time to waste, start applying now, the process can take years.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 6:23:44 PM EDT
The chance of being hire din federal law enforcement in the next 24-36 months is slim to none.

Only ones hiring any significant numbers:
a) US Marshals but you have better already taken the test in the last round....even then they are unsure.
b) US Secret Service
c) Bureau of Prisons

Anything else is going to be super small number of hires.  Budgets across the board were cut 3% last year.  The fiscal year starts 10/1/13 and we have no budget.  No budget means no spending.  The continuing resolution won't allow new hires for most agencies, especially since there is  5% cut in spending this year based upon last years numbers.  

Till this guy is gone and we get somebody who knows how to fix things and run government, few are getting hired.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:14:57 PM EDT
Must be appointed to the position by your 37th birthday for a 6c covered LE position.

I have been in for 20 years.  They do not make exceptions to the rule aside from the instances mentioned.  In those cases, you are required to buy your military time back to make up any deficit in service years you would have at the mandatory retirement age of 57.  If you don't have enough military service and if they aren't allowing the buy back, you will be in eligible for the position.
Link Posted: 8/30/2013 1:27:01 PM EDT
The cutoff age is 37 for a covered LE position in the Feds. BUT, if you did active duty, you can add the active duty to the cut off age. I think there is a maximum of 4 years, but that may have been changed with the recent policy revamp for hiring vets. So if you did 4 years active in the army, the cut off age for you would be 41 years old. No USCG or Nat Guard. Only reserves if you were activated and deployed overseas, then only that time counts.

Be aware some agencies do not allow extensions, the FBI comes to mind, they will only hire up to your 37th birthday, no matter what, even prior Fed LE time won't change the cutoff for the FBI. There are a couple others, but I can't think of them at this moment...

I have 16 years as a Fed, all covered time. I have worked with guys hired at 40 years old, but never known any past that age. Most applications have places to note active military time.


Good luck.

Link Posted: 8/30/2013 3:06:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The cutoff age is 37 for a covered LE position in the Feds. BUT, if you did active duty, you can add the active duty to the cut off age. I think there is a maximum of 4 years, but that may have been changed with the recent policy revamp for hiring vets. So if you did 4 years active in the army, the cut off age for you would be 41 years old. No USCG or Nat Guard. Only reserves if you were activated and deployed overseas, then only that time counts.

Be aware some agencies do not allow extensions, the FBI comes to mind, they will only hire up to your 37th birthday, no matter what, even prior Fed LE time won't change the cutoff for the FBI. There are a couple others, but I can't think of them at this moment...

I have 16 years as a Fed, all covered time. I have worked with guys hired at 40 years old, but never known any past that age. Most applications have places to note active military time.


Good luck.

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I think military buy back only helps on the back end.  In other words, you have to be 37 or under regardless, but it certainly adds to your retirement pay.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/30/2013 4:55:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Must be appointed to the position by your 37th birthday for a 6c covered LE position.

I have been in for 20 years.  They do not make exceptions to the rule aside from the instances mentioned.  In those cases, you are required to buy your military time back to make up any deficit in service years you would have at the mandatory retirement age of 57.  If you don't have enough military service and if they aren't allowing the buy back, you will be in eligible for the position.
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That is not accurate.  I know as I have dealt with this for two recent hires.  I also did a entire law brief for FLEOA as i am an 1811 and lawyer.  You do NOT have to buy back any military time.  All the OPM rules do is allow the waiver of the hiring age one year for every year of full time military service on a one to one basis.  You still MUST do 20 years in the 6c position to get the 6c retirement.  So for example, if hired at 40, that agency is agreeing to let you work to age 60 in that position.  You must do 20 years in the 6c to get the enhanced benefits.  There is no required buy back of your time.

So if you are hired at 45 with  10 years of military on, you still have to do 20 full years In  6c to get he 6c.  You can retire at any time, but there are no LEO benefits unless you do a full 20 in the 6c, meaning in this case, you retire at 65.  You can buy back those ten years if you wish, but it is not mandatory and if you do, but they go on the back end, meaning your 20 LEO (34%) + 10 additional military (10%) = 44% of the average high three.
Link Posted: 8/30/2013 5:05:30 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The cutoff age is 37 for a covered LE position in the Feds. BUT, if you did active duty, you can add the active duty to the cut off age. I think there is a maximum of 4 years, but that may have been changed with the recent policy revamp for hiring vets. So if you did 4 years active in the army, the cut off age for you would be 41 years old. No USCG or Nat Guard. Only reserves if you were activated and deployed overseas, then only that time counts.



Be aware some agencies do not allow extensions, the FBI comes to mind, they will only hire up to your 37th birthday, no matter what, even prior Fed LE time won't change the cutoff for the FBI. There are a couple others, but I can't think of them at this moment...



I have 16 years as a Fed, all covered time. I have worked with guys hired at 40 years old, but never known any past that age. Most applications have places to note active military time.





Good luck.



View Quote
Not always true. There are a number of folks that were prior 6C that have made the transition to the FBI after 37. I'll hit my 20 year mark in October. Ten to go.



 
Link Posted: 8/31/2013 1:46:55 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Not always true. There are a number of folks that were prior 6C that have made the transition to the FBI after 37. I'll hit my 20 year mark in October. Ten to go.
 
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
The cutoff age is 37 for a covered LE position in the Feds. BUT, if you did active duty, you can add the active duty to the cut off age. I think there is a maximum of 4 years, but that may have been changed with the recent policy revamp for hiring vets. So if you did 4 years active in the army, the cut off age for you would be 41 years old. No USCG or Nat Guard. Only reserves if you were activated and deployed overseas, then only that time counts.

Be aware some agencies do not allow extensions, the FBI comes to mind, they will only hire up to your 37th birthday, no matter what, even prior Fed LE time won't change the cutoff for the FBI. There are a couple others, but I can't think of them at this moment...

I have 16 years as a Fed, all covered time. I have worked with guys hired at 40 years old, but never known any past that age. Most applications have places to note active military time.


Good luck.

Not always true. There are a number of folks that were prior 6C that have made the transition to the FBI after 37. I'll hit my 20 year mark in October. Ten to go.
 


You are correct.  Several years ago the recruiter in NYC came to every 1811 office in the building as they had a special "lateral" announcement or something.  They only cared about 6c coverage (and if you could pass the PT).
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:31:21 AM EDT
The DOE OST will waive the age requirement for vets.

*Edit, I see they mentioned that in the second reply to your question.
Link Posted: 9/9/2013 6:32:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:
The DOE OST will waive the age requirement for vets.

*Edit, I see they mentioned that in the second reply to your question.
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Yeah they do but age is only part of it  if the new PT standards go into effect no one will make it to retirement you would be stupid to go ost if you are in your 40's or later its physical all the time and if you get hurt there is no where to go. Just something to think about and just my opinion.
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