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Posted: 1/25/2009 10:30:08 AM EDT
Are doomed to hell?

Had a missionary (who does most of his work in China) in to preach today and he said this.

I do not agree. I do not think ignorance of salvation is a ticket to hell.
Do you?




Link Posted: 1/25/2009 10:34:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 10:50:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 10:50:22 AM EDT by PlaymoreMinds]
Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
I had this discussion with my wife who is a devout Christian, and found out that we disagree completely on this. She thinks that it is a shame that people who have never been introduced to Jesus are going to hell and I think that would be a damn shame if true.


Agreed...and we've already got one affirmative vote.
I really didn't know people thought this. At all. And am a bit taken aback by it.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:03:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 11:06:33 AM EDT by Bohr_Adam]
This gets into the tricky theology of what exactly is Hell.

If you accept that Hell = generic afterlife / Hades then it makes sense. Dying without knowing God means you won't know what you are missing, but you really lost your chance. It sucks, becuase death sucks, as does a created begin never knowing its Creator - however, it isn't a punishment, per se.

If you accept that Hell = eternal torture and damnation, then it makes less sense. Seems to go against the grain of the God = Love and all that.

I've read a lot of interesting stuff from various degrees of both points of view.

Your supposition based on the poll question requires a bit of both of these - and is common, from what I can tell, among many American Protestant lines of thought.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:05:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:05:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:08:48 AM EDT
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me." -Jesus

So yeah, if someone has not heard before- they do not believe. Those who do not believe, their place is in the lake of fire.

So who's fault is it that they did not hear? Those who already believe and did not tell them.

Instead of thinking about whether or not they go to hell, let us go to them and tell them the good news.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:11:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Headlice:
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me." -Jesus

So yeah, if someone has not heard before- they do not believe. Those who do not believe, their place is in the lake of fire.

So who's fault is it that they did not hear? Those who already believe and did not tell them.

Instead of thinking about whether or not they go to hell, let us go to them and tell them the good news.


I used to live un an apartment where I could buzz someone in, even if they never knew it was me who buzzed them in.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:19:50 AM EDT
I am sure that there are many very good people living in remote corners of the world who've never heard of any of the major religions. God won't leave them out.

I refuse to join any organized religion because every one of them claims to hold the only
key to the gates of heaven. I utterly reject that absurdity.


CJ
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:43:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I am sure that there are many very good people living in remote corners of the world who've never heard of any of the major religions. God won't leave them out.

I refuse to join any organized religion because every one of them claims to hold the only
key to the gates of heaven. I utterly reject that absurdity.


CJ


Well said.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 11:45:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
This gets into the tricky theology of what exactly is Hell.

If you accept that Hell = generic afterlife / Hades then it makes sense. Dying without knowing God means you won't know what you are missing, but you really lost your chance. It sucks, becuase death sucks, as does a created begin never knowing its Creator - however, it isn't a punishment, per se.

If you accept that Hell = eternal torture and damnation, then it makes less sense. Seems to go against the grain of the God = Love and all that.

I've read a lot of interesting stuff from various degrees of both points of view.

Your supposition based on the poll question requires a bit of both of these - and is common, from what I can tell, among many American Protestant lines of thought.


I'll be honest...I don't know WHAT I believe hell is. Or heaven for that matter. Let's face it, there's no "range reports" on either place.
That said, I was just shocked that a missionary would feel this way.
I get the whole "spread the good news" aspect. I don't get the "spread the good news or people are going to hell," part.
It really surprised me.
I think it surprised the new pastor too...he seemed "off" after wards.

Link Posted: 1/25/2009 12:13:20 PM EDT
I have a theory, and it is JUST a theory.

GOD has character traits and among them are Loving Kindness and Justice. Neither of these two traits would allow him to condemn an ignorant soul to everlasting torment.

The book of Revelation primarily describes future events. Among these events are the binding of Satan for a millennium and then his being released. Upon his release he once again goes about spreading unpleasantness.

I think that the reason for his release is to give those souls that did not hear the word the first time around an opportunity to make the choice that they were denied. This would fit in the character of a Loving and Just Creator.



Link Posted: 1/25/2009 12:28:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HardShell:
We are all deserving of death and hell and only God's free grace saves us from such.

As a believer in the doctrine of election, I believe that an individual's eternal salvation has everything to do with God's own choice (before the foundation of the world) and nothing we hear/say/do in this life... so a qualified "no" to the question.





I would agree with you except to say that the fruits of the elect will be faith, and that will bring about repentance.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ––by grace you have been saved––
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Then, where does this faith come from?

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

So, God assigned this faith to the elect. The method he chooses to do this is through the Gospel of Jesus…….

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Even us Reformed people are saved by grace through faith in Christ. The Gospel must be heard for that to happen. God predestines all of His elect to hear it.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Link Posted: 1/25/2009 12:31:11 PM EDT
They die and go into the ground as all of humanity is condemned to do in Genesis 3. There is no additional punishment.

God will ressurect who He chooses to, and judge them worthy or not to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those of us fornutate enough to have access to the guidebook can improve the odds of the second part.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 4:06:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Those who have not had the chance to hear the message of salvation and accept Christ as their savior in this life will have the opportunity in the next before being judged.


Just curious, where in the Bible does it say that? Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 6:39:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:
Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Those who have not had the chance to hear the message of salvation and accept Christ as their savior in this life will have the opportunity in the next before being judged.


Just curious, where in the Bible does it say that? Thanks in advance.


My Bible program is messed up and I can't search for it right now, but it's in Revelation somewhere around the 19th chapter.

Just quick points here to make it easier;

Hell = the grave. The dead are simply and completely dead, and the Bible says "for the dead know nothing." They aren't aware of the passage of time, which is why they're often referred to as asleep. Hell is translated from (pardon spelling here) Ghehenna, Tartoros and Sheol, which all mean either grave or place of waiting .

At Christ's return "the dead in Christ" (Saints) will be resurrected, transformed into spirit as Christ is and swept up into the air to meet Him. This is the first resurrection. Once all those who fight Christ have been killed (and Satan locked away) Christ and his Saints will rule the Earth for 1,000 years. At the end of Christ's millenium all who have ever lived will be resurrected and taught the right way, Satan will be released for a short time, and the people will given the chance to decide whether to follow good or evil just as we do.
After that comes the Great White Throne Judgement, where all who are worthy to receive Grace will be transformed into spirit to be brothers and sisters of Christ, and those who aren't worthy will be cast into a huge fire in Ghehenna (the Valley of Hinnom) and completely consumed, which the Bible refers to as the second death. It also says that even our memory of them will die. The eternal is simply eternal death, from which there is no return. No ghosts, no eternal life being tormented or anything like that. As John 3:16 clearly states, only those who believe and follow Christ have eternal life. The idea that everyone has eternal life but it'll just suck really bad for most is a man made idea and not in the Bible.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 6:47:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Those who have not had the chance to hear the message of salvation and accept Christ as their savior in this life will have the opportunity in the next before being judged.


Just curious, where in the Bible does it say that? Thanks in advance.

there is nothing in scripture to support the statement by medicmandan. It's a good idea to support statement with scripture.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:02:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoGop:
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:
Originally Posted By medicmandan:
Those who have not had the chance to hear the message of salvation and accept Christ as their savior in this life will have the opportunity in the next before being judged.


Just curious, where in the Bible does it say that? Thanks in advance.


My Bible program is messed up and I can't search for it right now, but it's in Revelation somewhere around the 19th chapter.

Just quick points here to make it easier;

Hell = the grave. The dead are simply and completely dead, and the Bible says "for the dead know nothing." They aren't aware of the passage of time, which is why they're often referred to as asleep. Hell is translated from (pardon spelling here) Ghehenna, Tartoros and Sheol, which all mean either grave or place of waiting .

At Christ's return "the dead in Christ" (Saints) will be resurrected, transformed into spirit as Christ is and swept up into the air to meet Him. This is the first resurrection. Once all those who fight Christ have been killed (and Satan locked away) Christ and his Saints will rule the Earth for 1,000 years. At the end of Christ's millenium all who have ever lived will be resurrected and taught the right way, Satan will be released for a short time, and the people will given the chance to decide whether to follow good or evil just as we do.
After that comes the Great White Throne Judgement, where all who are worthy to receive Grace will be transformed into spirit to be brothers and sisters of Christ, and those who aren't worthy will be cast into a huge fire in Ghehenna (the Valley of Hinnom) and completely consumed, which the Bible refers to as the second death. It also says that even our memory of them will die. The eternal is simply eternal death, from which there is no return. No ghosts, no eternal life being tormented or anything like that. As John 3:16 clearly states, only those who believe and follow Christ have eternal life. The idea that everyone has eternal life but it'll just suck really bad for most is a man made idea and not in the Bible.



I have another question. The part I highlighted in red. Is there scripture to support this statement? Thanks again..

Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:02:49 PM EDT
voted no cause there is no such place.




and IN.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:05:00 PM EDT
It took me a bit to find it online, since my Bible program quit on me, but here you go;

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:21:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 7:23:08 PM EDT by 1387Delta]
Originally Posted By GoGop:
It took me a bit to find it online, since my Bible program quit on me, but here you go;

Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Thank you very much. My first postings in the Religion forums. I have a question about the Jews. What happens to them? Are they part of the 1000 year reign period?
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:41:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 7:42:48 PM EDT by Headlice]
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
This gets into the tricky theology of what exactly is Hell.

If you accept that Hell = generic afterlife / Hades then it makes sense. Dying without knowing God means you won't know what you are missing, but you really lost your chance. It sucks, becuase death sucks, as does a created begin never knowing its Creator - however, it isn't a punishment, per se.

If you accept that Hell = eternal torture and damnation, then it makes less sense. Seems to go against the grain of the God = Love and all that.

I've read a lot of interesting stuff from various degrees of both points of view.

Your supposition based on the poll question requires a bit of both of these - and is common, from what I can tell, among many American Protestant lines of thought.


I'll be honest...I don't know WHAT I believe hell is. Or heaven for that matter. Let's face it, there's no "range reports" on either place.
That said, I was just shocked that a missionary would feel this way.
I get the whole "spread the good news" aspect. I don't get the "spread the good news or people are going to hell," part.
It really surprised me.
I think it surprised the new pastor too...he seemed "off" after wards.



Either you believe the Bible or you dont. I like how people pick and choose what they think "sounds" right. What does the Bible say?

Do you recall the rich man and Lazarus? That would be one "range report". Or do you believe Jesus in a few parts or all parts?

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If people are not saved from the lake of fire, what do they need salvation for anyway? Why tell anyone the gospel? Why did Jesus even have to die? Seems pretty pointless to me. I guess God wasnt thinking when He sent His Son...

I guess God didnt see the end game- we all go to heaven. What in the world was He thinking by sacrificing His only Son....
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 7:47:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:12:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Headlice:
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
This gets into the tricky theology of what exactly is Hell.

If you accept that Hell = generic afterlife / Hades then it makes sense. Dying without knowing God means you won't know what you are missing, but you really lost your chance. It sucks, becuase death sucks, as does a created begin never knowing its Creator - however, it isn't a punishment, per se.

If you accept that Hell = eternal torture and damnation, then it makes less sense. Seems to go against the grain of the God = Love and all that.

I've read a lot of interesting stuff from various degrees of both points of view.

Your supposition based on the poll question requires a bit of both of these - and is common, from what I can tell, among many American Protestant lines of thought.


I'll be honest...I don't know WHAT I believe hell is. Or heaven for that matter. Let's face it, there's no "range reports" on either place.
That said, I was just shocked that a missionary would feel this way.
I get the whole "spread the good news" aspect. I don't get the "spread the good news or people are going to hell," part.
It really surprised me.
I think it surprised the new pastor too...he seemed "off" after wards.



Either you believe the Bible or you dont. I like how people pick and choose what they think "sounds" right. What does the Bible say?

Do you recall the rich man and Lazarus? That would be one "range report". Or do you believe Jesus in a few parts or all parts?

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If people are not saved from the lake of fire, what do they need salvation for anyway? Why tell anyone the gospel? Why did Jesus even have to die? Seems pretty pointless to me. I guess God wasnt thinking when He sent His Son...

I guess God didnt see the end game- we all go to heaven. What in the world was He thinking by sacrificing His only Son....


You are lumpin imagery from Revelation with the concept of death in general.

Christ made it clear that eternal life vs. death (hell) was for very few. However, Scriptue does not condemn the rest to eternal damnation. Rather, they remain dead until judgment. This judgment is, despite much rhetoric in the US protestant Evangelical movement, based on works and righteousness.

As usual, Mr. Headlice, you let the theology which you have been raised with blind you to the reality that others may interpret things differently.

What did Matthew have to say?


Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


I would argue that this, and other reference to fire and damnation, are reference to a state AFTER this judgment.

As for the state of heaven vs. Hell now, Scripture repeatedly simply refers to either "death or "eternal life." Hell is the place for all of the dead, except those who have died physcally while already in Communion with Christ's church, and thus have everlasting life in Christ (though arguably still face final judgment).

The dead who did not know Christ will still stand judgement - with only those intentionally turrning away being damned for eternity.

Also, iff Hell means eternal damnation, why this from the first letter of Peter?

1 Peter 4:6

For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:18:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 9:19:21 PM EDT by Bed_Head]
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Are doomed to hell?

Had a missionary (who does most of his work in China) in to preach today and he said this.

I do not agree. I do not think ignorance of salvation is a ticket to hell.
Do you?


Absolutely not.



FTR, I don't believe ignorance is an automatic ticket to 'heaven' either....
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:22:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 9:23:01 PM EDT by Bohr_Adam]
Again, folks - the whole idea of hell equaling a place of eternal torture and damnation needs to be rethought. Going to Hell does not mean that, and the idea that it does is not supported by Scripture - quite the opposite.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:28:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Again, folks - the whole idea of hell equaling a place of eternal torture and damnation needs to be rethought. Going to Hell does not mean that, and the idea that it does is not supported by Scripture - quite the opposite.
I agree with you.

Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:29:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:
Originally Posted By GoGop:

<snip>.


Thank you very much. My first postings in the Religion forums. I have a question about the Jews. What happens to them? Are they part of the 1000 year reign period?


No. Jesus said that nobody comes to the Father except through Him, and that is what I believe. That would mean that the Jews who don't believe that Jesus was/is the Christ will be among those resurrected at the end of the millenium rather than among the Saints who will be in the first resurrection.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:30:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Again, folks - the whole idea of hell equaling a place of eternal torture and damnation needs to be rethought. Going to Hell does not mean that, and the idea that it does is not supported by Scripture - quite the opposite.


Absolutely! Dead is dead, until the resurrection.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:42:46 PM EDT
Do on to others. Lead a good life. That's good enough. Religion was I think a creation by men who had no other way to cope with death. It is not possible to imagine nothing. Even as you try you are imagining a black void...there is the flaw. You are thinking, and in the void, your thought is something. It is scary. In some past time, some genius had the thought of where do we go when our bodies stop. Poof. Religion was born out of fear. Now let's all go kill people who have other bullshit theories about all existence than our own.

Sorry, I was raised catholic! When my 2nd grade religion teacher told me I couldn't take my deer gun to heaven I was pissed. Who's heaven is it anyway. Bucks and birds are in my perfect picture of eternity.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:51:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By Headlice:
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
This gets into the tricky theology of what exactly is Hell.

If you accept that Hell = generic afterlife / Hades then it makes sense. Dying without knowing God means you won't know what you are missing, but you really lost your chance. It sucks, becuase death sucks, as does a created begin never knowing its Creator - however, it isn't a punishment, per se.

If you accept that Hell = eternal torture and damnation, then it makes less sense. Seems to go against the grain of the God = Love and all that.

I've read a lot of interesting stuff from various degrees of both points of view.

Your supposition based on the poll question requires a bit of both of these - and is common, from what I can tell, among many American Protestant lines of thought.


I'll be honest...I don't know WHAT I believe hell is. Or heaven for that matter. Let's face it, there's no "range reports" on either place.
That said, I was just shocked that a missionary would feel this way.
I get the whole "spread the good news" aspect. I don't get the "spread the good news or people are going to hell," part.
It really surprised me.
I think it surprised the new pastor too...he seemed "off" after wards.



Either you believe the Bible or you dont. I like how people pick and choose what they think "sounds" right. What does the Bible say?

Do you recall the rich man and Lazarus? That would be one "range report". Or do you believe Jesus in a few parts or all parts?

Mark 9:
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If people are not saved from the lake of fire, what do they need salvation for anyway? Why tell anyone the gospel? Why did Jesus even have to die? Seems pretty pointless to me. I guess God wasnt thinking when He sent His Son...

I guess God didnt see the end game- we all go to heaven. What in the world was He thinking by sacrificing His only Son....


You are lumpin imagery from Revelation with the concept of death in general.

Christ made it clear that eternal life vs. death (hell) was for very few. However, Scriptue does not condemn the rest to eternal damnation. Rather, they remain dead until judgment. This judgment is, despite much rhetoric in the US protestant Evangelical movement, based on works and righteousness.

As usual, Mr. Headlice, you let the theology which you have been raised with blind you to the reality that others may interpret things differently.

What did Matthew have to say?


Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


I would argue that this, and other reference to fire and damnation, are reference to a state AFTER this judgment.

As for the state of heaven vs. Hell now, Scripture repeatedly simply refers to either "death or "eternal life." Hell is the place for all of the dead, except those who have died physcally while already in Communion with Christ's church, and thus have everlasting life in Christ (though arguably still face final judgment).

The dead who did not know Christ will still stand judgement - with only those intentionally turrning away being damned for eternity.

Also, iff Hell means eternal damnation, why this from the first letter of Peter?

1 Peter 4:6

For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.



You have taken scripture out of context. The scripture that you are referring to in Matthew refers to a time called the great tribulation and this is talking about those who were kind to the Jews during this 2nd holocaust of the Jews. Those people will be almost undoubtedly believers because most of the world will have turned against the Jews and the promises of the Bible.

So tell me, why did Christ have to die? What did it accomplish if only a few go to hell and eventually the lake of fire?
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 9:59:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2009 10:01:55 PM EDT by Bohr_Adam]
Christ died to show that the gates of Hell could not prevail against his Church, his resurrection was proof of that.

When did I say only a few go to hell? I said the opposite - the majority go to Hell. Hell, however, is not a place of eternal damnation. Souls in Hell still await judgment.

Look, I grew tired of arguing with you years ago - your mind is made up. As an example, you have an entire Tribulation theology built by taking sentences here and there from books ranging from Genesis to Ezekiel to Revelation, and yet accuse me of taking things out of context.

I merely post in these threads to show others that there is more to Christian theology than that espoused by those of you who claim to speak for ALL Christians, and who claim to define what all Christians believe.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 10:17:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gee223:
Do on to others. Lead a good life. That's good enough. Religion was I think a creation by men who had no other way to cope with death. It is not possible to imagine nothing. Even as you try you are imagining a black void...there is the flaw. You are thinking, and in the void, your thought is something. It is scary. In some past time, some genius had the thought of where do we go when our bodies stop. Poof. Religion was born out of fear. Now let's all go kill people who have other bullshit theories about all existence than our own.

Sorry, I was raised catholic! When my 2nd grade religion teacher told me I couldn't take my deer gun to heaven I was pissed. Who's heaven is it anyway. Bucks and birds are in my perfect picture of eternity.


I see it just the opposite. If there were nothing after death, what would there be to fear? No responsibility for anything, and when you're done, you're done. That sounds like an easy way out to me. It takes far more courage to learn and do what's right, especially with all the pressure not to, than to simply disappear.
Link Posted: 1/25/2009 10:46:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bed_Head:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Again, folks - the whole idea of hell equaling a place of eternal torture and damnation needs to be rethought. Going to Hell does not mean that, and the idea that it does is not supported by Scripture - quite the opposite.
I agree with you.




O My, I'm quite confused now.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:23:03 AM EDT
Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Sure sounds like Hell to me......
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:50:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HardShell:
We are all deserving of death and hell and only God's free grace saves us from such.

As a believer in the doctrine of election, I believe that an individual's eternal salvation has everything to do with God's own choice (before the foundation of the world) and nothing we hear/say/do in this life... so a qualified "no" to the question.




I don't agree that people are deserving of death and he!! just for being born regardless of what the Bible says, if God's creation is that bad then he failed.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:50:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Headlice:


You have taken scripture out of context. The scripture that you are referring to in Matthew refers to a time called the great tribulation and this is talking about those who were kind to the Jews during this 2nd holocaust of the Jews. Those people will be almost undoubtedly believers because most of the world will have turned against the Jews and the promises of the Bible.

So tell me, why did Christ have to die? What did it accomplish if only a few go to hell and eventually the lake of fire?


I'd argue that context is subjective, but that's a whole 'nother thread, I guess.
I'm much more relaxed in my faith than some here.
Perhaps because I've attended services from varying religions and have concluded that none are interpreting the Bible identically the same.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:27:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2009 4:29:04 AM EDT by Bohr_Adam]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By HardShell:
We are all deserving of death and hell and only God's free grace saves us from such.

As a believer in the doctrine of election, I believe that an individual's eternal salvation has everything to do with God's own choice (before the foundation of the world) and nothing we hear/say/do in this life... so a qualified "no" to the question.




I don't agree that people are deserving of death and he!! just for being born regardless of what the Bible says, if God's creation is that bad then he failed.


While I don't always agree with Catholic teachings, I will put on my Catechism hat here for a minute and explain things from that perspective (though they most likely do not synch with our mod's). I will try to avoid post-biblical references as I know how much it gets some people here worked up.

Everything that lives dies - Jesus offer hope for eternal life in him, that's the whole point. Hell is our "default" setting, if you will. The reason for this is original sin.

Christ Died, descended into hell, then re-opened the gates of heaven to the righteous. Hence "the Redeemer," "the Messiah," etc.

Hebrews 2:14-15

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.


His resurrection thus created an option other than Hell.

Revelation 1:18

and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.


Thus there are really two concepts of Hell in the Bible - a place for the dead (all of the dead, actually, up until Christ's resurrection), and a place for the damned. Hell is Hell because it is not with God. That is the very definition of Hell - "The principal suffering of hell is eternal separation from God in whom alone we can have the life and happiness for which we were created and for which we long." The more dramatic biblical images, especially regarding punishment, are restricted to those who deliberately defy God, not faced simply by those who did not know Him. Only those who willfully turn away from God (committing what Catholic would call a "mortal sin") are doomed to Hell eternally. All others will have the option to live in God's Kingdom upon judgment.


2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:47:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bearsfan:
Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Sure sounds like Hell to me......


Matthew
13:1 On that day after Jesus went out of the house, he sat by the lake.
13:2 And such a large crowd gathered around him that he got into a boat to sit while the whole crowd stood on the shore.
13:3 He told them many things in parables,.....

Sounds like a parable to me. And in the parable, the good are kept and the bad is thrown away and burned as trash, not tortured for all etermity.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 8:29:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By HardShell:
We are all deserving of death and hell and only God's free grace saves us from such.

As a believer in the doctrine of election, I believe that an individual's eternal salvation has everything to do with God's own choice (before the foundation of the world) and nothing we hear/say/do in this life... so a qualified "no" to the question.




I don't agree that people are deserving of death and he!! just for being born regardless of what the Bible says, if God's creation is that bad then he failed.


While I don't always agree with Catholic teachings, I will put on my Catechism hat here for a minute and explain things from that perspective (though they most likely do not synch with our mod's). I will try to avoid post-biblical references as I know how much it gets some people here worked up.

Everything that lives dies - Jesus offer hope for eternal life in him, that's the whole point. Hell is our "default" setting, if you will. The reason for this is original sin.

Christ Died, descended into hell, then re-opened the gates of heaven to the righteous. Hence "the Redeemer," "the Messiah," etc.

Hebrews 2:14-15

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.


His resurrection thus created an option other than Hell.

Revelation 1:18

and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.


Thus there are really two concepts of Hell in the Bible - a place for the dead (all of the dead, actually, up until Christ's resurrection), and a place for the damned. Hell is Hell because it is not with God. That is the very definition of Hell - "The principal suffering of hell is eternal separation from God in whom alone we can have the life and happiness for which we were created and for which we long." The more dramatic biblical images, especially regarding punishment, are restricted to those who deliberately defy God, not faced simply by those who did not know Him. Only those who willfully turn away from God (committing what Catholic would call a "mortal sin") are doomed to Hell eternally. All others will have the option to live in God's Kingdom upon judgment.


2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.




why should defying God doom someone to he!!? Is that loving of God to say you didn't love me so you should be tortured eternally? I've had pets that just never seemed to really love me or devote their lives to me the way others do, but I never think they should suffer for it.
I just don't know.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 8:30:40 AM EDT
John 5:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 8:55:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shane333:
John 5:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Ok...but answer the question, Shane. Do YOU think.....
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:15:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Originally Posted By Shane333:
John 5:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


Ok...but answer the question, Shane. Do YOU think.....


I think that, depending on how people lived their lives, they wait in a spirit prison (I believe the Catholics refer to this as "purgatory") or spirit paradise while they await the resurrection where they'll stand before God to be judged. All mankind will have an opportunity either in this life, in spirit prison, or spirit paradise, to hear of Jesus and His gospel.

You see, to me your question is partially incorrect because I believe that all will have an opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and have an opportunity to accept or reject Him prior to resurrection and judgement.

As for final judgement, I don't hold to the simple concept of either a heaven or hell as is commonly held. I believe that some will be resurrected to celestial glory, others will be resurrected to a terestrial glory, while others a telestrial glory. A handful will have rebelled against such great knowledge and blessings (sons of perdition) that they will be cast out into outer darkness (Cain fits here).

God resides in the Celestial kingdom. So, in a way, being forever severed from His presence could be considered a type of "hell" for those who do not enter His kingdom.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:22:42 AM EDT
I keep thinking, y'know, someday I'd love to sit down and have a few beers and talk theology with some LDS folks. Then I realize... oops, I guess that'll never happen.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:27:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
I keep thinking, y'know, someday I'd love to sit down and have a few beers and talk theology with some LDS folks. Then I realize... oops, I guess that'll never happen.


Substitute root beer for the beers and I don't see why not.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:37:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shane333:
all will have an opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and have an opportunity to accept or reject Him prior to resurrection and judgement.




Well, according to the missionary that I referenced above, that is not so: unless people go out and preach these people are damned.
I just don't buy that a soul goes to hell because not enough people "spread the word."

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:38:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2009 9:41:00 AM EDT by Cattitude]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
why should defying God doom someone to he!!? Is that loving of God to say you didn't love me so you should be tortured eternally? I've had pets that just never seemed to really love me or devote their lives to me the way others do, but I never think they should suffer for it.
I just don't know.
Animals do not have the same cognitive abilities as humans, so that is not really a valid comparison.

I don't believe that God dooms anyone to hell. He gave the rules and told us the consequences. He gave us a free will to decide whether to follow those rules or not. If we make the decision not to, we've brought those consequences upon ourselves.

To answer the OP, I believe eternal damnation comes after a conscious decision to defy God, not from ignorance of the gospel.

ETA: I agree, PMM. I don't think for a second someone will be condemned to hell because of the actions of someone else (failing to spread the gospel to them).
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 9:47:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Originally Posted By Shane333:
all will have an opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and have an opportunity to accept or reject Him prior to resurrection and judgement.




Well, according to the missionary that I referenced above, that is not so: unless people go out and preach these people are damned.
I just don't buy that a soul goes to hell because not enough people "spread the word."



Well, according to the Biblical scriptures I cited above, the spirits of dead people are given an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

Then again, there is a truth to the part in red.

Just has a dam holds back water, impeding its forward progress, "damnation" refers to the impeded progress of our spirits. Since acceptance of Christ is a necessary part of spiritual salvation, then not knowing of Christ is obviously a serious impediment. Some people have faced that impediment their entire mortal lives. Some still do in certain parts of the world. In that sense they were "damned" in that they couldn't spiritually progress without the knowledge of Christ.

The good news is that eventually everyone will have an opportunity to hear of Christ. Thus God is just.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:53:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Thus there are really two concepts of Hell in the Bible - a place for the dead (all of the dead, actually, up until Christ's resurrection), and a place for the damned. Hell is Hell because it is not with God. That is the very definition of Hell - "The principal suffering of hell is eternal separation from God in whom alone we can have the life and happiness for which we were created and for which we long." The more dramatic biblical images, especially regarding punishment, are restricted to those who deliberately defy God, not faced simply by those who did not know Him. Only those who willfully turn away from God (committing what Catholic would call a "mortal sin") are doomed to Hell eternally. All others will have the option to live in God's Kingdom upon judgment. [/quote]



So you believe that everyone has eternal life? What about John 3:16 where it says only those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, the quote from Revelation I put up where it states that those not worthy will be cast into the fire for the "second death" and all the places in the Bible that state "the dead know nothing" and similar phrases?

Someone else posted about the weeping and gnashing of teeth, and that's referring to as you're being killed in the fire. (The second death. We die once because we're mortal, then after that we're resurrected still as humans, and if judged unworthy consumed in the fire. That's why it says that men are appointed once to die, but the second death is the result of our own actions). It's a fire that consumes unworthy resurrected humans completely. The only people who achieve immortality are the ones judged worthy, and they couldn't be hurt by fire. A human can't live in the fire, and a spirit wouldn't be bothered by fire. Eternal punishment means that you're gone forever, as there will be no more resurrections.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:06:34 PM EDT
Simply being "good" was not enough to get into heaven. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Christ to begin with.

No matter how "good" someone is, it's still not good enough in contrast to God's holiness. Therefore, we must have an intercessor to shield our corruption.

Jesus HIMSELF said no man may come to the Father except through HIM.


When you study Sheol or the original, pre-Catholicism (Council of Nicea 325 AD) concept of Hell, you understand that the lost Book of Enoch was considered to be holy scripture even in the time of Christ.

Jude, the Brother of Jesus, quoted directly from the Book of Enoch in the Epistle of Jude.

The Council of Nicea voted the Book of Enoch out of the canon –– although some Orthodoxies (Ethiopian for example) never did discount it as scripture. Not only did the council exempt the book from canon, but subsequently BANNED it out of existence.

The reason I am saying this is because the Book of Enoch contains a very telling account of Enoch when he was caught away into heaven with God, and the reasons for such a thing, and what happened as a result.

It clearly spells out the afterlife, particularly in contrast with the Jewish concept of Sheol - or a place where "saved" souls go vs. the place where evil souls go to await final judgment some time into the future.

Some concepts of Catholic purgatory are derived from this doctrine, and it's easy to understand why the priesthood wanted to obscure these writings from access by the laity.

The "Dead Sea scrolls" were discovered in Israel between 1947 and 1955, and were essentially a cache of Old Testament writings that were stored within the caves. Of the highest concentration of scrolls, the Book of Psalms had the highest number. Deuteronomy was second. And the most interesting thing of all was that the Book of Enoch had the 3rd highest concentration of number of scrolls. More than Levicticus, more than Genesis and Exodus.

Yet, modern Christianity knows little of its existence, nor do modern evangelical Christians even understand the story that it tells –– and the validation that it is given through the Epistle of Jude in actually quoting from the Book of Enoch VERBATIM.



The reason I say all of this, is because it opens the doors to understanding quite a lot that is missing from the existing canon in reference to these kinds of questions.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:15:08 PM EDT
Hey BenDover,

Do you have a good link for the text of the Book of Enoch? I'm very curious to read it.
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