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Posted: 6/9/2009 5:12:18 PM EST
Starting with:

1) Brass tubing for the case

2) .22LR empty cases and lead for the bullet

3) Primer cup and anvil from sheet metal

4) Primer powder from online/store bought chemicals

5) Smokeless powder from cotton and online/store bough chemicals

I could do #4 and, with trial and error, #5.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:14:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:15:10 PM EST by Texkaw]
Not unless you own a chemical factory.
somkeless powder and primers made from drugstore supplies?

Not happening.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:16:22 PM EST
Keith and I could do it. But it would be slow. We could have Andy doing the dangerous parts like primers and powder and txrdneck bringing the beer.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:16:30 PM EST
Yes it could be done. And no most couldn't do it.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:17:39 PM EST
I wouldnt even try. If it came to making improvised guns, I would go with some sort of large bore shotgun type weapon.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:03 PM EST
scratch?

mining is a bitch
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:17 PM EST
My boss has been looking into making brass. Simple press operations but expensive equipment.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:36 PM EST
This site, yes.

There are a wide range of folks on here, and with their collective knowledge and expertise I can see it happening in short order.

Though some think this site is full of babbling retards, many of those posters ARE very intelligent and hold PhD's in a variety of things. I'd put some stock in it happening if the right people were put together.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:41 PM EST
We can't even collectively settle on one type of chili. No way we could organize a complex operation of any sort.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:18:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:18:58 PM EST by Texaspyro21]
It could be done but who would be dumb enough to try shooting it?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:19:19 PM EST
I'll volunteer to test it.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:19:32 PM EST
Yes it could be done , but a twelve gauge would be easier just do to the lower pressures involved and larger/easier to work with raw materials. Ammunition is amazingly low tech for the most part.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
scratch?

mining is a bitch


Yeah, but I don't have the brains for the chemistry of it, so I'll be over there with my pick axe and shovel ready.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:21:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Texaspyro21:
It could be done but who would be dumb enough to try shooting it?


this is the place where people bumpfire underwater.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:23:19 PM EST
I'd just kidnap some hadji to do it for me; that's what they do.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:23:23 PM EST
I have no doubt it could be done.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:24:03 PM EST
Gonna have to tag of possible manufacture of prefab 55 grain proto-zombie, perp, and perv poppers.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:27:06 PM EST
At that point you just need someone who knows how to make a rifled barrel, gun powder and smelt lead. Rifle ammo isn't worth the time or expense if you're making it from scratch.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:27:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By BrandonB:
This site, yes.

There are a wide range of folks on here, and with their collective knowledge and expertise I can see it happening in short order.

Though some think this site is full of babbling retards, many an incredibly small number of those posters ARE very intelligent and hold PhD's in a variety of things. I'd put some stock in it happening if the right people were put together.

Fixed it for ya'
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:27:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:29:47 PM EST by HK_Shooter_03]
Controlled pair...
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:29:32 PM EST

With the equipment, I could do all of them.

With what I have at home, #4 and #5 with trial, error, a rope, and eyepro.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:30:36 PM EST
I'm gonna need a large chuck of brass and a Dremel.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:34:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:35:30 PM EST by C-4]
Originally Posted By Texkaw:
Not unless you own a chemical factory.
somkeless powder and primers made from drugstore supplies?

Not happening.


I have a degree in chemistry so #4 and #5 is very doable. If you know where to look online or walk-in stores, the chemicals are easily obtained or made from precursors. If a meth-head can manufacture methamphetamine in his bathtub with an 8th grade education . . .
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:35:27 PM EST
Metal parts would be easy. Relatively.

Do I need to make my own dies for forming cases and bullets? I'd rather extrude the cases from bar than tube, thank you.

Smokeless powder to match (or approximate) current canister grades - that would require some equipment, and trial and error. Black powder and guncotton I can make - I did that in high school.

Primer compound - I think I could do corrosive, but I'd rather not. Non-corrosive I'm not sure what it is.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:37:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Texaspyro21:
It could be done but who would be dumb enough to try shooting it?


Hey guys, did someone say free ammo?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:39:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lost-Drive-In:
Metal parts would be easy. Relatively.

Do I need to make my own dies for forming cases and bullets? I'd rather extrude the cases from bar than tube, thank you.

Smokeless powder to match (or approximate) current canister grades - that would require some equipment, and trial and error. Black powder and guncotton I can make - I did that in high school.

Primer compound - I think I could do corrosive, but I'd rather not. Non-corrosive I'm not sure what it is.


No secrets there as the patents are on the United States Patent and Trade Office website. Lead Styphnate is the main ingredient and the most challenging.

If you want to use bar stock for the cases that's fine.

Maybe I should have used 9mm Luger as an example since it's more straightforward (lower pressures and straight cases).
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:45:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 5:46:27 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:47:30 PM EST
If the zombies invaded, society crumbled, and ARFCOM was reduced to its own membership making the necessities to survive, I would recommend the following:

.45 caliber (or other large caliber handgun) ammunition

Smoothbore barrel, open bolt SMGs.

It would be the most simple route to go, wouldn't it? Rifled barrels would be a pain in the @$$.

-Ben
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
scratch?

mining is a bitch


Yeah, but I don't have the brains for the chemistry of it, so I'll be over there with my pick axe and shovel ready.
wikipedia has everything you need to know.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:52:24 PM EST
.arfcom could build the death star.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:53:00 PM EST
KeithJ is the only person here I can think of that could probably handle it all by himself.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:53:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By wasnme:
Yes it could be done , but a twelve gauge would be easier just do to the lower pressures involved and larger/easier to work with raw materials. Ammunition is amazingly low tech for the most part.


Agree. In.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 5:59:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Given the right equipment in the shop, easily. Cases can be machined from bar stock (undesirable, but workable if there is no other option), drawn from plate with a solid, modern high pressure head, or drawn from thin sheet into a low pressure balloon head case. A hybrid case with a machined head and a body drawn from tubing then soldered to join is also possible.

Primer cups are simple. Boxer type anvils are a little tougher, but doable; simplifying the design to a two legged configuration would be a big step.

Bullets, easy; we have the machinists here that could turn out very nice swage dies.

We also have the chemists and probably process guys to make the propellant and priming compound.

The real trick is turn a demonstration project into a high volume production project.


I would shoot the ammo.




About the anvil:

why not go to 4 legs and just punch it / form it. Make it look like this ––> ^ from the side to fit in the cup. Seems easier to balance in the cup than 2 legs and easier to make than 3
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:00:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spiral_Out:
Originally Posted By Texaspyro21:
It could be done but who would be dumb enough to try shooting it?


Hey guys, did someone say free ammo?


Unfortunately, It would take a lot of production to get cost per load near even today's inflated prices. Tooling ain't cheap. (or quick if you're making it yourself - time is money). If I was giving it away, I'd rather buy it for you.

I'm no fan of balloon cases - especially for an AR. I'd rather progressively draw them, and it doesn't take much of a press. Hell, you could do it with a hammer if you had the time.

Swaging bullets would be relatively easy. Likewise, primer parts are no big deal.

The chemicals in primer compounds spook me a bit - my chemistry isn't real strong, but I know that volatile heavy metals need respect.

Likewise, I know something about the manufacturing process for smokeless powder on a modern poduction scale, but I'm not sure how to come up with the chemistry to duplicate, say, H322.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:05:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 6:07:00 PM EST by JCKnife]
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:06:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 6:07:34 PM EST by crishel]
This is AR15.com what caliber do you think we should be doing?

It does make you wonder though, if AR15.com got behind it, and promoted it, and then let the member base fund the operation....

Wonder what could really happen. The people that fund the operation get permanent discounts...?

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:09:00 PM EST
Here's a glimpse of case forming http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/

Push came to shove, I'd drop back to black powder...
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:09:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
I'll volunteer to test it.


So would I. In your gun though.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:09:56 PM EST
I guaran-damn-tee it, as long as nobody asked about beans in chili during the process.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:10:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:11:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:13:35 PM EST
Depends; are we counting industry partners?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:15:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 6:15:54 PM EST by RhinelandArms]
A company I do business with can make solid copper 223 bullets by the millions per month. Unfortunately, they can not seem to get their prices on raw material down to a reasonable level.

As for Chili, they are from the north and probably put corn in it how can you work with people like that?
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:19:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
We can't even collectively settle on one type of chili. No way we could organize a complex operation of any sort.

agreed there would be blood drown over 55GR. or 62GR
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:23:50 PM EST
Fat McNasty and Keithj together could do it, no question.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:28:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
Starting with:

1) Brass tubing for the case

2) .22LR empty cases and lead for the bullet

3) Primer cup and anvil from sheet metal

4) Primer powder from online/store bought chemicals

5) Smokeless powder from cotton and online/store bough chemicals

I could do #4 and, with trial and error , #5.
1: Fail. Cases are formed from sheet, extruded and formed which makes the head much harder. Necks are then annealed and formed, making them softer. Tube is not the right material. And this requires heavy punch forming machinery. The most difficult process.

2. Ask FatMcNasty. But much easier than forming cases.

3. Dies are easy to make. Bullet jacket forming press, even a reloading press, should be sufficient.

4. I don't like corrosive. Making non-corrosive priming isn't out of the realm of a small operation. Resorcinol (1-3 dihydroxyphenol, can be isolated from certain plants) is triple nitrated, then reacted with lead. Add some powdered metals, binders and volila, priming. Loading them would be a bear to get perfect.

5. Smokeless? Much more complex than nitrating cotton. You need solvents, like acetone, MEK, ethyl acetate. You need forming apparati, extruders or droppers. Then you need solvent recovery, the extruded are air dried. You would never make it economically if you don't use solvent recovery. Sphericals are formed under water, the solvents end up in the water and are recovered in the process. Then there is deterrents. These are partially nitrated organic compounds similar to priming compounds and could be isolated from certain plants.

Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:28:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2009 6:32:00 PM EST by 1Andy2]
Actually, I've been toying with the idea of taking used .22lr brass and just casting it into solid brass .223 bullets. I think it might be easier/quicker and cheaper than buying the tooling to use them to make jackets.


I'd have to get to the point where I can machine steel on my cnc equipment to make the molds, but that's not too big a deal. If push came to shove, I could buy a manual mill and convert it to CNC.


Making the cartridges is pretty straightforward. All it takes is money to buy the equipment or time to make the equipment.


lol, and no... I'm not even going to try to make smokeless powder or primary explosive. I don't know much about it, but I do recall that it's fairly dangerous.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:32:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By xaaronx:
.arfcom could build the death star.




WIN
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:36:05 PM EST
I'm a machinist, so i'm in for making the dies and possible heat treating them. Most modern dies are made from carbide as it will polish up better and lasts longer. Composite dies might work too. I've been working on this for awhile now and it isn't as simple as most think. Brass machined from bar stack will last one, maybe two firings. If you think ammo is expensive, look up a sheet of C260 brass (cartridge brass). I have alot of old books on this subject and let me tell you, that without mechanization and being able to buy in bulk this will get expensive real fast.

I was going to set-up a series of dies on a 50 ton hydraulic press. Have them annealed between each die and just move down the line. That way each stroke of the ram would make each stage of the brass at the same time. Still working on the primer thing. Still can't find a non-corrosive primer combination.
Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:49:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By C-4:
Starting with:

1) Brass tubing for the case

2) .22LR empty cases and lead for the bullet

3) Primer cup and anvil from sheet metal

4) Primer powder from online/store bought chemicals

5) Smokeless powder from cotton and online/store bough chemicals

I could do #4 and, with trial and error, #5.
1: Fail. Cases are formed from sheet, extruded and formed which makes the head much harder. Necks are then annealed and formed, making them softer. Tube is not the right material. And this requires heavy punch forming machinery. The most difficult process.

2. Ask FatMcNasty. But much easier than forming cases.

3. Dies are easy to make. Bullet jacket forming press, even a reloading press, should be sufficient.

4. I don't like corrosive. Making non-corrosive priming isn't out of the realm of a small operation. Resorcinol (1-3 dihydroxyphenol, can be isolated from certain plants) is triple nitrated, then reacted with lead. Add some powdered metals, binders and volila, priming. Loading them would be a bear to get perfect.

5. Smokeless? Much more complex than nitrating cotton. You need solvents, like acetone, MEK, ethyl acetate. You need forming apparati, extruders or droppers. Then you need solvent recovery, the extruded are air dried. You would never make it economically if you don't use solvent recovery. Sphericals are formed under water, the solvents end up in the water and are recovered in the process. Then there is deterrents. These are partially nitrated organic compounds similar to priming compounds and could be isolated from certain plants.



Personally, I'd down shift to my 30-30 Marlin stainless steel, along with black powder and corrosive priming. A quick trip up to Yellowstone will get me all the sulphur I'd need, and the nitrate I'd make from a nitre bed. Black powder is a lot more forgiving load-wise, and 30-30 would be a good overall caliber. I'd really want to work on priming compounds a bit.


Link Posted: 6/9/2009 6:53:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By C-4:
Starting with:

1) Brass tubing for the case

2) .22LR empty cases and lead for the bullet

3) Primer cup and anvil from sheet metal

4) Primer powder from online/store bought chemicals

5) Smokeless powder from cotton and online/store bough chemicals

I could do #4 and, with trial and error, #5.
1: Fail. Cases are formed from sheet, extruded and formed which makes the head much harder. Necks are then annealed and formed, making them softer. Tube is not the right material. And this requires heavy punch forming machinery. The most difficult process.

2. Ask FatMcNasty. But much easier than forming cases.

3. Dies are easy to make. Bullet jacket forming press, even a reloading press, should be sufficient.

4. I don't like corrosive. Making non-corrosive priming isn't out of the realm of a small operation. Resorcinol (1-3 dihydroxyphenol, can be isolated from certain plants) is triple nitrated, then reacted with lead. Add some powdered metals, binders and volila, priming. Loading them would be a bear to get perfect.

5. Smokeless? Much more complex than nitrating cotton. You need solvents, like acetone, MEK, ethyl acetate. You need forming apparati, extruders or droppers. Then you need solvent recovery, the extruded are air dried. You would never make it economically if you don't use solvent recovery. Sphericals are formed under water, the solvents end up in the water and are recovered in the process. Then there is deterrents. These are partially nitrated organic compounds similar to priming compounds and could be isolated from certain plants.



Personally, I'd down shift to my 30-30 Marlin stainless steel, along with black powder and corrosive priming. A quick trip up to Yellowstone will get me all the sulphur I'd need, and the nitrate I'd make from a nitre bed. Black powder is a lot more forgiving load-wise, and 30-30 would be a good overall caliber. I'd really want to work on priming compounds a bit.




Col. (CSA) Joseph Leconte published a great booklet for confed planters on mass production of nitrates for gunpowder. It's available online.
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