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Posted: 10/15/2004 5:43:18 AM EST
I saw a John Kerry ad this morning on TV, talking about how nobody can afford health insurance anymore, and that it had become a "privilege". It made me wonder, "since when is it a right?" Why does a homeless guy, or an illegal immigrant (or for that matter any immigrant) or somebody that works the late shift at 7-11 have a right to health insurance? Wouldn't that be socialized medicine?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:44:25 AM EST
No, but you can thank the unions for this mentality.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:45:38 AM EST
No.

Nor do you have a right to retirement, unemployment, education, welfare, housing, food, or anything else.

You want it, go it yourself.

Things are going to change around here when I become King.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:46:19 AM EST
No.

YOu have NO right to a job.

You have no right to health care.



You have no right to "fair wages."

You have the right to FIND ANOTHER EMPLOYER if your present one either doesn't like you, or you don;t like him.



Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:46:33 AM EST
We are witnessing the death of Capitalism in this country while at the same time seeing other countries turn to it.

We have GOT to do everything we can to save this country from following the same path Rome took.

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:46:53 AM EST
There's a word for defining something as a right when other people are obligated to pay for it: Socialism.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:47:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
You have the right to FIND ANOTHER EMPLOYER if your present one either doesn't like you, or you don;t like him.



Careful, our resident communist would disagree with you.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:47:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
No.

YOu have NO right to a job.

You have no right to health care.



You have no right to "fair wages."

You have the right to FIND ANOTHER EMPLOYER if your present one either doesn't like you, or you don;t like him.







+1
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:48:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By California_Kid:
There's a word for defining something as a right when other people are obligated to pay for it: Socialism.



Absolutely and it does not work.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:50:52 AM EST
No, but I have the right to buy anything that I can afford. The feds get involved in too much and screw this country up,
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:56:24 AM EST
I say yes, until the government does something to stop the ridiculous charge inflations that have occured in the past 2 decades. There was a time when a man could pay his medical bills out of his pocket. Now you have to declare bankruptcy if you have a bad illness and no insurance. A lot of employers don't offer insurance to their employees. You can say what you want, but I believe the one place capitalism has failed in America is in healthcare (including health insurance and pharmacy). I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich. Flame all you want, I've been around the medical field too long and have seen too many cases of people being screwed by medical bills and insurance.

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:57:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:01:25 AM EST by BoreSighted]
Healthcare insurance is an option, a privelege if you will, but not a right. I have in the past decided to have medical coverage but self insured for dental, because with excellent dental health it was much cheaper to pay for my semiannual cleanings than to pay for excessive dental insurance. I certainly would have been very unhappy if some socialized medical plan had 'forced' me to make dental insurance premiumn payments against my will.

Insurance is expensive because costs of providing care are expensive.

Senator Edwards is a measurable component of the rediculous costs of health care due to insurance payouts.

Eliminate the malpractice lawsuits, stop the cost cycle. Prices won't drop, but at least stop the escalation.

Problem is that eliminating all that attorney income would probably have a measurable impact on the economy due to their reduced personal spending, and that would cause a short term dip before the benefits of the insurance savings are realized.

Of course, if both medical malpractice and product liability tort reform occcur, we'll have a surplus of a particular subspecies of attorneys looking for jobs in their proper career path as shady used car salesmen. There are plenty of ethical lawyers remaining to cover our needs, so I'm not worried.



While I'm on my soapbox, where are the thankyou letters from all of the welfare, medicaid, and social security recipients I've supported over the years? I'll never be paid anything from any of those systems, so who am I supporting, and where's the gratitude?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:58:53 AM EST
We have the right to "life" should someone by denied that right because they cannot afford a doctor ?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:00:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
I say yes, until the government does something to stop the ridiculous charge inflations that have occured in the past 2 decades. There was a time when a man could pay his medical bills out of his pocket. Now you have to declare bankruptcy if you have a bad illness and no insurance. A lot of employers don't offer insurance to their employees. You can say what you want, but I believe the one place capitalism has failed in America is in healthcare (including health insurance and pharmacy). I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich. Flame all you want, I've been around the medical field too long and have seen too many cases of people being screwed by medical bills and insurance.

r/s

Dan



The Gov. is mostly responsible for the rise in the cost. Get them the hell out of it.

And for anyone who thinks that Gov. run health care is so great, no need to look to other countries to see how their system works. Our own Gov. has been running the VA hospitals for years. Does anyone think that program is going good?

Besides these are the same people who run the post office.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:01:04 AM EST
you forgot to mention the guy who bitches he can't afford health insurance, but has all sorts of toys.

I know someone like this.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:02:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Now you have to declare bankruptcy if you have a bad illness and no insurance.



A) Why do you think that is?

B) Why is that my problem?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:04:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
And for anyone who thinks that Gov. run health care is so great, no need to look to other countries to see how their system works.



Funny you should mention that. My brother used to be a huge proponent of socialized medicine right up until he was working in Austria, got sick, and had to deal with their system.

There's a reason that rich foreigners come here to get medical treatment.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:06:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:06:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:

I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich.


r/s

Dan




SO I take it when you becoem a Doc you will work for chickens and some old corn?

Cool...I have a scratchy throat. I'll IM you my address so you can come right over. I'll get the chicken ready.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:08:36 AM EST
A "right" to health insurance? NO

A "right" to be treated in an emergency room? YES

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:08:42 AM EST
28 to 1, looks like a Canadian voted.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:08:52 AM EST
A “right” suggests that its god given, like the right to bear arms. A “privilege” suggests that its government given, like the privilege to drive.

Healthcare is neither a right nor a privilege. It’s a personal choice or responsibility. The only right involved is the right to freely seek the best care you can afford.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:09:13 AM EST
Yes you have a right to BUY health insurance, you do not have a right to have your favorite socialist(John Kerry) reach in my wallet to provide it for you!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:09:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By ANGST:
We have the right to "life" should someone by denied that right because they cannot afford a doctor ?


Yes.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:09:23 AM EST
I'll get flamed for this, but eliminate bankruptcy.

Why do we have a process that is analagous to a playground "do-over"?

"oh, I've screwed up, things are out of control for me financially, just wipe it out and let me start over".

Self induced problems? deal with it. You shouldn't get a free ride on my dime to get out of your problems.

Catastrophic failure? Bad things happen some times, but you're alive. Where's the bankruptcy "do-over" option for someone killed by a drunk driver? Or are you really worth expending more money than it would take to feed an entire small nation for a month to keep you individually alive on life support for that same month? You're worth more than all of those other people, so it should be spent on you but then "erased" since you can't afford it? (note - this is not directed at anyone specific, just the generic "you")
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:10:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich.


r/s

Dan




SO I take it when you becoem a Doc you will work for chickens and some old corn?

Cool...I have a scratchy throat. I'll IM you my address so you can come right over. I'll get the chicken ready.

Sgtar15



Anything worth doing should be about getting rich. You do things better when there is profit in it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:13:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:18:03 AM EST
It's not just a Kerry thing, Bush is leaning that way too.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:18:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
I say yes, until the government does something to stop the ridiculous charge inflations that have occured in the past 2 decades. There was a time when a man could pay his medical bills out of his pocket. Now you have to declare bankruptcy if you have a bad illness and no insurance. A lot of employers don't offer insurance to their employees. You can say what you want, but I believe the one place capitalism has failed in America is in healthcare (including health insurance and pharmacy). I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich. Flame all you want, I've been around the medical field too long and have seen too many cases of people being screwed by medical bills and insurance.

r/s

Dan



Greedy doctors and lawyers does not make healthcare a right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:21:17 AM EST
anyone who say's some americans are denied health care is a full ofcrap. any one, even non-americans can walk into any hospital er and get better treatment than anyone can get anywhere in the rest of the world.
the er or hospital cannot discharge you because you lack insurance! period!
i am a hospital supervisor and can tell you, if anything, the uninsured get faster treatment and consults by specialist just to get them out. they are a money loser.
the insured are healthier and have more options...don't hold it against them..
BASIC health care may be seen as a right, i cannot really argue that (overall benifit for all in the long run).
uninsured people are are treated late sometimes, and they are expected to try to pay the bill even though many don't even care.
why would i worry about being better and more responsible if it didn't make a difference?
socialism is coming....that really gets me beyond upset. i am truely worried.
everyone worlwide is being reduced to the lowest common denominator, even if they don't know what a denominator is.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:30:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:31:29 AM EST by PBIR]

SO I take it when you becoem a Doc you will work for chickens and some old corn?



When I become a doc I'll do exactly what the doctors I repect do. I'll treat whoever I can based on their need, not their ability to pay. Everyone deserves to have their medical problems taken care of. Period.

"I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick."

This is part of the Physician's oath. I take my oaths seriously.

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:32:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:34:20 AM EST by RevDeadCorpse]

Originally Posted By ANGST:
We have the right to "life" should someone by denied that right because they cannot afford a doctor ?



Should the doctor be forced at the point of a gun to treat that person for free? Should we be forced at the point of a gun to pay for that persons healthcare?

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:33:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:

This is part of the Physician's oath. I take my oaths seriously.

r/s

Dan




SO when you get that 100,000+ pay check in a few years will you give that money back or keep it?


SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:34:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:36:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By ANGST:
We have the right to "life" should someone by denied that right because they cannot afford a doctor ?



Sorry, you just pushed one of my few hot buttons.

Health Care is a *product* (using the term very generally). It it the result of people doing things and making things and putting them together and using them on other people.

As such, there is a limited quantity of it available.

How shall this limited quantity be distributed, by whom shall it be distributed, and who shall see that the distributors distribute it in accordance with the "how shall" rules?

Don't forget "quality". Who gets the Lexus of health care, and who gets the Yugo?

We have the right to "liberty". Should someone be denied that right because they cannot afford comfortable shoes? We have the right to "self defense". Should someone be denied that right because they cannot afford a firearm?

The only denying going on is a denial of SERVICE. That's COMPLETELY different. "Service" is something SOMEONE ELSE does to or for you. It is NOT something you do for yourself, and therefore CANNOT be YOUR right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:41:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sin_Bin:
A "right" to health insurance? NO

A "right" to be treated in an emergency room? YES




Why?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:44:59 AM EST
1] Medicine is a commodity, like any other. It is free for NO ONE. If you don't pay for it someone else has to.

2]Yeah, medicine is about helping people. It is also how myself and plenty of others make a living. You think I am going to work for free or for 35K/yr? LMFAO. No one would put up with the amount of bullshit I have to for less.

3]If you do force docs to give away care(I do some BTW) and they work for far less who do you think is going to go to medschool? Not the best and brightest for sure. Already losing some of them because fo the direction we are going.
Who is going to go to 4y college, 4y medschool, 3-10y residency and then start making money? Anyone here look at the cost of medical education lately? How long do you think I put off home ownership, a 401K, etc? LMAO some more. What a bunch of retards. Maybe the service or commodity you provide for a living should be a right.

I am amazed at the number of people who come in with their whole family and expect me to check 2 for free! How many of you give up one hour out of every 2or 3 to work for free. Get a f'ing clue.

4]Bread and circuses for the mob is no longer enough. Now it is free healthcare. What is next? Once again, get a clue and see the big picture.

5]American healthcare is the best in the world. That means it isn't cheap. I have people come in who are healthy and demand CT scans. LOL. If you want socialized medicine than accept what you are going to get. my advice is to spend a little time in a VA center first and you will see what it is like in America.

6]There are alot of reasons why healthcare is expensive. You can thank gov't for ALL of them. Now you think they will fix simply by giving healthcare away. Shit, if you guys saw what I do from the welfare/loser bunch you'd know where the problem is.

7]I could cut healthcare costs overall in this country by 33% overnight. Only problem is that people would not accept that 95 year old Grandma Millie IS going to die, that they don't need antibiotics for every cold, and that a little common sense would go along way in managing minor problems like sprains, etc. Fat fucking chance.
Problem is that when someone else is paying for it everyone want everything possible done. If family had to pay out of pocket Grandma Millie wouldn't make it thru the day.

8] I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen anyone turned away and refused care. NEVER. I am sure it happens some but I suspect it is in extreme cases. So, IOW, if you are going to the clinic every 3 days trying to score narcotics and never paying your bill don't be surprised if eventually you get told to fuck off. For those of you here with that mentality I will say it: FUCK OFF!

9]Some of you here who think that you will fix the system, IF you can actually get into medschool are in for a rude awakeing. You are both naive and ignorant. You have no idea what goes on in those little windowless rooms with patients. My advice to all of you would be to find another profession. However, I will be getting out before too long. I am sick of all the fuckers like you with a giant chip on their shoulder and not a dime to pay for anything. Thusly, someone will have to do it. I suspect that if this goes on the standards for admittance wil go down and down and down. Should make it easier to get into medschool though shouldn't it?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:45:38 AM EST

SO when you get that 100,000+ pay check in a few years will you give that money back or keep it?



That is an ignorant question. There is nothing in the oath that precludes me from being able to feed my family. I am not talking about being a charity only, I am stating that I will not work only on patients who have the ability to pay 100% of my fees. But you already knew that.



Medically, that is the ideal. But what about the economic facet?


Of course the economic facet has to be redressed. Reform of malpractice suits and health insurance would go a long way in solving many of the issues by lowering the costs of health care and making health insurance more reasonably priced.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:45:53 AM EST
tagged for later reply
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:46:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By Sin_Bin:
A "right" to health insurance? NO

A "right" to be treated in an emergency room? YES




Why?



Actually emergency rooms MUST treat a person with life threatening injuries/ilness. After the life threatening part is taken care of they can toss them back on the street.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:47:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
1] Medicine is a commodity, like any other. It is free for NO ONE. If you don't pay for it someone else has to.

2]Yeah, medicine is about helping people. It is also how myself and plenty of others make a living. You think I am going to work for free or for 35K/yr? LMFAO. No one would put up with the amount of bullshit I have to for less.

3]If you do force docs to give away care(I do some BTW) and they work for far less who do you think is going to go to medschool? Not the best and brightest for sure. Already losing some of them because fo the direction we are going.
Who is going to go to 4y college, 4y medschool, 3-10y residency and then start making money? Anyone here look at the cost of medical education lately? How long do you think I put off home ownership, a 401K, etc? LMAO some more. What a bunch of retards. Maybe the service or commodity you provide for a living should be a right.

I am amazed at the number of people who come in with their whole family and expect me to check 2 for free! How many of you give up one hour out of every 2or 3 to work for free. Get a f'ing clue.

4]Bread and circuses for the mob is no longer enough. Now it is free healthcare. What is next? Once again, get a clue and see the big picture.

5]American healthcare is the best in the world. That means it isn't cheap. I have people come in who are healthy and demand CT scans. LOL. If you want socialized medicine than accept what you are going to get. my advice is to spend a little time in a VA center first and you will see what it is like in America.

6]There are alot of reasons why healthcare is expensive. You can thank gov't for ALL of them. Now you think they will fix simply by giving healthcare away. Shit, if you guys saw what I do from the welfare/loser bunch you'd know where the problem is.

7]I could cut healthcare costs overall in this country by 33% overnight. Only problem is that people would not accept that 95 year old Grandma Millie IS going to die, that they don't need antibiotics for every cold, and that a little common sense would go along way in managing minor problems like sprains, etc. Fat fucking chance.
Problem is that when someone else is paying for it everyone want everything possible done. If family had to pay out of pocket Grandma Millie wouldn't make it thru the day.

8] I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen anyone turned away and refused care. NEVER. I am sure it happens some but I suspect it is in extreme cases. So, IOW, if you are going to the clinic every 3 days trying to score narcotics and never paying your bill don't be surprised if eventually you get told to fuck off. For those of you here with that mentality I will say it: FUCK OFF!

9]Some of you here who think that you will fix the system, IF you can actually get into medschool are in for a rude awakeing. You are both naive and ignorant. You have no idea what goes on in those little windowless rooms with patients. My advice to all of you would be to find another profession. However, I will be getting out before too long. I am sick of all the fuckers like you with a giant chip on their shoulder and not a dime to pay for anything. Thusly, someone will have to do it. I suspect that if this goes on the standards for admittance wil go down and down and down. Should make it easier to get into medschool though shouldn't it?



I call bullshit. You're no doctor sir.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:47:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:48:25 AM EST by norman74]

Originally Posted By PONY_DRIVER:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By Sin_Bin:
A "right" to health insurance? NO

A "right" to be treated in an emergency room? YES




Why?



Actually emergency rooms MUST treat a person with life threatening injuries/ilness. After the life threatening part is taken care of they can toss them back on the street.



That still doesn't make it a right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:48:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 6:49:56 AM EST by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
If you don't pay for it someone else has to.



Which is EXACTLY why I hate GROUP INSURANCE like my company uses......I am rarely sick and when I go to the Dr. something is SERIOUSLY "broken".....

However, I work with a bunch of sickly bastards who go to the Dr. because they sneeze funny.

Total Premiums Paid minus Total Dollars of Coverage Used are always NEGATIVE which represents a higher "risk" for our insurer.

Hence a higher out of pocket cost for EVERYONE.......I'd like to buy health insurance like I buy car insurance, but the plans out there right now are WAY TOO HIGH.......

It's not a right.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:50:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Which is EXACTLY why I hate GROUP INSURANCE like my company uses......I am rarely sick and when I go to the Dr. something is SERIOUSLY "broken".....

However, I work with a bunch of sickly bastards who go to the Dr. because they sneeze funny.



You mean like the smokers?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:50:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:51:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
I say yes, until the government does something to stop the ridiculous charge inflations that have occured in the past 2 decades. There was a time when a man could pay his medical bills out of his pocket. Now you have to declare bankruptcy if you have a bad illness and no insurance. A lot of employers don't offer insurance to their employees. You can say what you want, but I believe the one place capitalism has failed in America is in healthcare (including health insurance and pharmacy). I worked at Vanderbilt Hospital in Nashville for two years and I am now pre-med. The medical profession is supposed to be about helping people, not getting rich. Flame all you want, I've been around the medical field too long and have seen too many cases of people being screwed by medical bills and insurance.

r/s

Dan


In reply to ,"Stop the ridiculous charge inflations", I have a neighbor who has a $10.00 co-pay for office visits, her kid gets an ant bite, off to the doctor she goes. Kid coughs more then twice in a 1/2 hr, off to the doctor. Here is a short list of 'other' reasons to run right down to the doc's. Any rash, scrape from falling down, bug bite, crust in corner of eye in mourning,
hit with ball while playing, and the list goes on. We are talking 2-3 times a week at the min.
We all get to pay for this bs.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:51:52 AM EST
All insurance is legalized gambling. You bet that you will get ill, the company bets you won't. Or you bet that you will get in car accident the company bets you won't. you dont have a rite to gamble its a privilege.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:52:08 AM EST

how nobody can afford health insurance anymore


News to me. I've had health insurance since I turned 18. But then, I've been earning a paycheck since then.

Yes, even through college.

Maybe what sKerry meant was that nobody that DOESN'T WANT TO WORK can't afford health insurance.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:54:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:


I call bullshit. You're no doctor sir.



And I should give a shit what a peabrain socialist like you thinks?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:54:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
When I become a doc I'll do exactly what the doctors I repect do. I'll treat whoever I can based on their need, not their ability to pay.



From each according to ability, to each according to need.

Karl Marx
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 6:54:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
You have the right to FIND ANOTHER EMPLOYER if your present one either doesn't like you, or you don;t like him.


Good. You're fired.

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