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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/4/2005 6:35:38 AM EDT
Jesus did. (see Matthew 24:37-39, and others)

I do too.

But I am amazed that many people claim to be "Christians" and yet they don't believe what Christ believed. How can you say that you believe that Christ died for your sins and think that your faith will save you if you don't have the faith to believe what Christ said?

In my opinion, either Christ was the Son of God, or he wasn't. If He was, He certainly knew what he was talking about when He mentioned the Flood of Noah.

I'm trying to put a bee in the bonnet of all the many people that seem to think they are saved by faith in Christ, and yet they don't trust the Old Testament, especially Genesis. Christ believed it, as He quoted from almost every book of the Old Testament.

Christ believed it, and I believe it. Do you?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:46:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:31:43 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
***Edited***<va-gunnut>

A team of the world's greatest authorities with an unlimited budget couldn't duplicate the ark with just the bugs in my yard.

So the story really rings true to you? Noah collected Emporer Penguins from Antarctica? Polar bears? Lemurs from Madagascar? Elephants, rhinos, tigers, lions, millions of species of beetles? Kept them all alive on a boat and then reestablished breeding populations? What did the carnivores eat until then? Why didn't all the fish die when fresh and salt water mixed? Where did enough water to cover Mount Everest come from? Where did it go? Why isn't there any remaining evidence of a worldwide flood? Want to buy some swampland in Florida?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:58:34 AM EDT
If you think there is no evidence of a worldwide flood, why do you think that fossils of sea creatures can be found on top of mountains? And that is only the beggining. If you really want to check it out, read "The Genesis Flood" by Henry Morris.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:59:02 AM EDT
Yes. I presume God to be who he claims to be: supernatural Lord of all creation. He arranged EVERYTHING necessary for Noah to acomplish his task.

As long as you presume God isn't supernatural Lord of all creation, you will continue not believing.

Jesus believed in the flood: Matthew 24:38; Luke 17:27.

Peter believed in the flood: 2 Peter 2:5, 3:6

Scripture is it's own interpreter.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:08:35 AM EDT
Yes I do, and thank you for asking.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:16:07 AM EDT
A worldwide flood? No, I do not believe such an event happened.

Marine fossils on mountian tops? Link
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:22:27 AM EDT
no I do not believe in a wordwide flood ala Noah. I do believe in a localized flood in the region of the Tigris Euphrates that spawned the Babylonian flood tale, which influenced the Jewish flood story.

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:32:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 7:32:59 AM EDT by axmurderer]

Originally Posted By Shooterer:
Yes I do, and thank you for asking.



You are welcome and thank you for posting. You are obviously intelligent enough to know that part of my reasons for asking this question, is to give an opportunity for those who do believe, to glorify our God. I'm glad you took that opportunity. (carbine_man too)
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:41:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:33:19 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Yes, I believe Noah's flood actually happened. I believe it was alocal flood.




Originally Posted By Rodent:
***Edited***<va-gunnut>

A team of the world's greatest authorities with an unlimited budget couldn't duplicate the ark with just the bugs in my yard.

So the story really rings true to you? Noah collected Emporer Penguins from Antarctica? Polar bears? Lemurs from Madagascar? Elephants, rhinos, tigers, lions, millions of species of beetles? Kept them all alive on a boat and then reestablished breeding populations? What did the carnivores eat until then? Why didn't all the fish die when fresh and salt water mixed? Where did enough water to cover Mount Everest come from? Where did it go? Why isn't there any remaining evidence of a worldwide flood? Want to buy some swampland in Florida?



Maybe you should read up on this subject.

Noah’s Flood: A Bird’s-Eye View
The Waters of the Flood

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 8:49:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 8:51:37 AM EDT by Schulze]
Yes. I think about it whenever I walk the hills at the ranch which are covered in clams that died and fossilized in the closed position.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:06:05 AM EDT
God says it happened, so I agree.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:16:05 AM EDT
I do... and am thankful for the covenant that followed every time I see a rainbow.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 9:47:03 AM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:03:47 AM EDT
I believe!
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:13:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
In my opinion, either Christ was the Son of God, or he wasn't. If He was, He certainly knew what he was talking about when He mentioned the Flood of Noah.



+1. Either Jesus Christ was the son of God or he was stark raving mad. When you go around forgiving people of their sins, you either have the power to do so or are completely loony. People who go around claiming He was a "great teacher" just like Mohommed or L. Ron Hubbard but don't believe He was divine are seriously deluding themselves.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:14:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:
I do... and am thankful for the covenant that followed every time I see a rainbow.



Big +1.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:29:50 AM EDT
yes!
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 10:47:54 AM EDT
Sure it did. In a localized manner that scared the shit out of a lot of uneducated locals and their sheep.

Probably a hurricaqne that casued the flood and the ark was probably more a trading barge than anything else.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 11:54:23 AM EDT
yes I believe in the great flood and that Jesus Christ was and is the son of GOD.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 11:59:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 12:08:54 PM EDT by WildBoar]
I have no problem with it and dont look down on those who dont believe it. I just with others could reciprocate the courtesy. But thats asking a lot from some.

I dont think the main emphasis should be on whether it happened or not but as much as it foreshadows the gospel of Jesus Christ and God sovereignly providing salvation for his Chosen.

"In the volume of the Book it is written of Me" (Heb. 10:7). Christ is the Key to the Scriptures. Said He, "Search the Scriptures..they are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39), and the "Scriptures" to which He had reference, were not the four Gospels for they were not then written, but the writings of Moses and the prophets.


In the great Deluge and the ark in which Noah and his house found shelter, we have a typification of great spiritual verities. From them we learn that God takes cognizance of the doings of His creatures; that He is holy and sin is abhorrent to Him; that His righteousness requires Him to punish sin and destroy sinners. Yet, here also we learn that in judgment God remembers mercy, that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; that His grace provides a refuge if only His sinful creatures will avail themselves of His provision. Yet only in one place can deliverance from the Divine wrath be found. In the ark alone is safety and security. And, in like manner, today, there is only one Saviour for sinners, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 12:02:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Sure it did. In a localized manner that scared the shit out of a lot of uneducated locals and their sheep.

Probably a hurricaqne that casued the flood and the ark was probably more a trading barge than anything else.



that's a whole lot of prabablies.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 2:13:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
Yes. I presume God to be who he claims to be: supernatural Lord of all creation. He arranged EVERYTHING necessary for Noah to acomplish his task.




Do you also believe the purported claims of all the other purported gods?
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:06:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:


Do you also believe the purported claims of all the other purported gods?



I only believe the one that died and are rose from the dead after three days, Jesus Christ.

There is no other supposed god that died and then rose from the dead. not one


Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:14:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By Rodent:


Do you also believe the purported claims of all the other purported gods?



I only believe the one that died and are rose from the dead after three days, Jesus Christ.

There is no other supposed god that died and then rose from the dead. not one





+1


And no other god has ever kept a single promise he made me.

The God of the Bible, conversely has never failed a single He made me.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:15:01 PM EDT
Oh, and yes I believe in a literal worldwide flood.

Just as my Lord and Savior described it.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:18:50 PM EDT
The dinosaur national monuments in the US and abroad, where thousands of verious species fossils have been and continue to be unearthed have the same things in common. SAND SAND SAND. If you do a little research useing satalite photography, you'll notice the locations of these mass bone deposits have a common trait. The gelogical surveys of the locations, all have the characteristics to form an eddy effect during a flood. That alone should bear proof of the great flood of the Bible. But, they will never admit it due to the fact it would throw their scientific theory for a loop and jeprodize future funding on debunking creationism.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:27:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
Jesus did. (see Matthew 24:37-39, and others)

I do too.

But I am amazed that many people claim to be "Christians" and yet they don't believe what Christ believed. How can you say that you believe that Christ died for your sins and think that your faith will save you if you don't have the faith to believe what Christ said?

In my opinion, either Christ was the Son of God, or he wasn't. If He was, He certainly knew what he was talking about when He mentioned the Flood of Noah.

I'm trying to put a bee in the bonnet of all the many people that seem to think they are saved by faith in Christ, and yet they don't trust the Old Testament, especially Genesis. Christ believed it, as He quoted from almost every book of the Old Testament.

Christ believed it, and I believe it. Do you?



I do find fault with your argument that says Christ knew he was the Son of God and therefore "knew" everything God knew.

I think we can find biblical evidence to support the fact that Jesus did NOT know he was the Son of God
until the end. Up until that time there are many scholars that believe Christ referring to "my Father" was
the same as we do "Our Father, which art in Heaven" etc.

One of the compelling things about Christ NOT knowing who he was is that it gives even MORE power to the fact that he lived a perfect life. It would be easy for a self aware deity to live a perfect life, a lot harder
for an unknowing Son of God to live a good life through Faith alone.

Even at the end, on the cross, Christ calls out "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do".
If he was self aware as God himself, who was he talking to?

It can be argued that is why Christ had to return AFTER the crucifixion, one to offer proof to those
that would believe, and second to leave instructions for his Apostles, no longer as the leader of a small
group of believing humans, but as the Word of God DIRECTLY.

It is generally thought that even the 12 did not think of Christ as the Messiah for sure until the end.
If would make sense if He Himself was not aware of that fact either.

So to say that Jesus "knew" of the flood might be mistaken, more proper to say that he "knew" of it
solely based on Faith, of which there is no doubt He had plenty.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:42:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

I think we can find biblical evidence to support the fact that Jesus did NOT know he was the Son of God
until the end.



WOW.

<shaking head>

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:


When Christ said "I am" he was referencing the Old testament name for Jehovah - which is in keeping with the "Before Abraham was..." part.

His assertion that He was very God of very God is why teh Jews attempted to kill Him, as commanded in the law of Moses for those who blasphemed.

Of course, Chrsit was correct in His assertion, and teh Jews messed up their interpretation.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:58:42 PM EDT by TrashHeap]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

I think we can find biblical evidence to support the fact that Jesus did NOT know he was the Son of God
until the end.



WOW.

<shaking head>

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:


When Christ said "I am" he was referencing the Old testament name for Jehovah - which is in keeping with the "Before Abraham was..." part.

His assertion that He was very God of very God is why teh Jews attempted to kill Him, as commanded in the law of Moses for those who blasphemed.

Of course, Chrsit was correct in His assertion, and teh Jews messed up their interpretation.





John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know
.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:59:06 PM EDT
Didn't say it was true, I said it was an argument........
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Didn't say it was true, I said it was an argument........



OK, then......

Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:13:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 7:18:24 PM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Didn't say it was true, I said it was an argument........



OK, then......




I wasn't done, I was looking for something.

The argument goes like this, and I'm not sure it's not without merit. Interesting topic
at least.

In HMk. 1:13 we read about Christ being tempted. Clearly says
he was tempted in every way possible, and heavily, but yet he did not sin.

How can a 100% self aware Messiah even be tempted? If you are the Son of God
and you know it, what would possibly tempt you?

Anyway, that's the basis of the argument, it has some thought provoking
stuff in it.

And of course the argument back is well, Christ is not God, he is God as human, "trinity and all that".


Gethsemane too. He knew it was coming, which would indicate more than human, but yet
it was a struggle and he prayed heavily about it ahead of time.

So, as God, he could very well have been both self aware when necessary and
not self aware when desiring to learn. The Bible informs us that one great object in Christ's
being tempted was to teach Him by experience how to sympathize with human flesh and frailty.

You need to not know you are God in order to be tempted.

And if you are God you can probably get away with being both.

So I don't find conflict in saying Christ was both aware and unaware of who he was.
Clear as mud huh. This one hangs me up now and then and I have to
reboot my brain.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:21:12 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I'll make a comment on the "local flood" theory, that the flood of Noah was not a global one. This has 2 big problems:

1- scientific - since "all the mountains were covered" and water seeks its own level, this had to be a global flood

2 - theological - God said that "all life" would be destroyed
- God made a covenant expressly with Noah and his sons and son's wives after the flood - if anyone
escaped the flood, they were not included in the convenant
- Also, God promised never to do it again. If this were a local flood, He lied...

There would also be no need for an ark if the flood were local.

I'll bet a lot of people still have problems with the flood of Noah, and I invite them to read the book "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb / Morris. It gives scientific facts concerning the ark, it's capacity, and much much more. For those of us who believe, but would like more "ammo" to argue against those who would ridicule the Bible, as well as help ourselves to understand, this is a good read. Another book by Morris, "The Genesis Record" is the best commentary on Genesis I've ever seen.

Have a good weekend guys!!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:26:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
I wasn't done, I was looking for something.

The argument goes like this, and I'm not sure it's not without merit. Interesting topic
at least.

In HMk. 1:13 we read about Christ being tempted. Clearly says
he was tempted in every way possible, and heavily, but yet he did not sin.

How can a 100% self aware Messiah even be tempted? If you are the Son of God
and you know it, what would possibly tempt you?




I beleive if you look up the word "tempted" in the Greek, it renders "put to the test."

Thus Christ could be "put to the test" without being"enticed to sin."

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 5:37:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
I wasn't done, I was looking for something.

The argument goes like this, and I'm not sure it's not without merit. Interesting topic
at least.

In HMk. 1:13 we read about Christ being tempted. Clearly says
he was tempted in every way possible, and heavily, but yet he did not sin.

How can a 100% self aware Messiah even be tempted? If you are the Son of God
and you know it, what would possibly tempt you?




I beleive if you look up the word "tempted" in the Greek, it renders "put to the test."

Thus Christ could be "put to the test" without being"enticed to sin."



He was most certainly enticed to sin.

Well, that's too simplistic. Check the bible for the definitions......
enticement to evil -Matt., xxvi, 41; I Cor., x, 13
that which tempts or entices to evil James, i, 12; II Pet., ii, 9

And again, how can you test or tempt or do anything remotely harmful to God
unless he allows it. And if He wants to experience it for our benefit it would
only make sense to experience it as one of us. He could certainly do that,
He's God.

This one from an interesting book on the subject:


Like Adam, Christ (the second Adam) endured temptation only from without, inasmuch as His human nature was free from all concupiscence; but unlike Adam, He withstood the assaults of the Tempter on all points, thereby affording His mystical members a perfect model of resistance to their spiritual enemy, and a permanent source of victorious help (Heb., iv, 15-16).


So it would be easy for God to resist temptation, and we could easily defend our fall to sin
by saying "Well, that was God, it would be easy for him, we're human and it's hard".

How better to stop that argument than to TRULY be human for a time. Again, I think
God could certainly pull that one off, and I'm not sure why everyone gets so offended
by the suggestion that for a time Christ truly was Human and walked as one of us, to
give us an example to follow.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:28:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
He was most certainly enticed to sin.

Well, that's too simplistic. Check the bible for the definitions......
enticement to evil -Matt., xxvi, 41; I Cor., x, 13
that which tempts or entices to evil James, i, 12; II Pet., ii, 9



I know what enticement means. But you have NOT made the case Christ was enticed.

Lemme illustrate -

Someone could come up to me and tempt me to shoot heroin. But it has NO enticement for me. It disgusts me.

Now if it was porn, i WOULD be enticed, cuz my sinful lusts burn toward that.

To say Chrsit was enticed would be to say He had a sin nature, and that sinful nature burned within Him to desire the enticement, which is the pinnacle of heresy. All that Chrsit was "tested" with disgusted Him, and had no enticement for Him.

Think again my friend.

Your position destroys Christianity,as a sinful saviour can save no one.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:26:22 PM EDT
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