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Posted: 8/1/2005 5:10:18 PM EDT
Discussion in another thread got me to thinking. We argue about our particular
belief, but do you think that's what we're supposed to do? Is it worth the endless
arguments?

If you are a Christian, do you think you have an obligation to convert others?
How far does that go? When you are arguing with a brick wall, when do you say
enough is enough?

When do you just give up, pray for their souls, and move on?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:20:24 PM EDT
A Christian converted me from AK-47. To AR-15.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:24:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:31:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

When do you just give up, pray for their souls, and move on?



when the thread gets moved into the Religion forum


Do you Christians believe you are supposed to try to "convert" others?



"I can only show you the door Neo; you have to walk through it."
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:55:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 6:01:30 PM EDT by garandman]
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine.

I'm called to speak the truth whenever there is an open door (i.e. the individual has not yet made it clear they don't want to hear it anymore) When they do so, I quit.

Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door."

Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:57:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine....



big +1 there.

conversion comes through the Holy Spirit.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:03:52 PM EDT
"Go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples of all men, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have taught you and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the Earth". Christs last words to us Christians. Says it all.

Some will listen and be saved. Some will not and we are to shake the dust off our shoes and leave them per instructions. We do not do the conversions. God does and we are only His conduits. Some cultivate, some sow, and some reap but all is through God.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:04:47 PM EDT
Our main command given to us by Christ was "to be fishers of men" meaning to spread the word of Christianity.

You should try and reach everyone you can but he also made mention to the fact that it is futile to "cast pearls to swine"
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 6:21:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 6:22:19 PM EDT by BlammO]

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By garandman:
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine....



big +1 there.

conversion comes through the Holy Spirit.



+2

God calls on us to tell others His good news -- not necessarily all of us in the same way. It's your responsibility to accept or reject the message, so that means the conversion is between you and Him exclusively. He does not make your eternal fate my responsibility. Whenever you hear otherwise, rest assured that it is simply another lie intended to mislead and confuse you.

Do Christians sometimes get a little overzealous? Sure. But don't let that steer you off the path toward the truth.

[Edit for clarity]
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:16:32 AM EDT
I am called to preach the truth. Acceptance of and obedience to that truth can only be done by the individual's cooperation with The Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless:

"4 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10

We are supposed to share the Gospel message with all creatures, as The Master said:

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Mark 16

If we fail to declare the whole truth of God, then we have blood on our hands:

"26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. "

Acts 20

I refuse to stand before God with blood on my hands.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:37:28 AM EDT
I am not a religeous person. Not even sure I believe in a "god".

Having said that and being raised Christian, I understand the concepts of "god" and its various versions under the major religions.

IMO, if you are a true believer in your god, you should try to convert people. If you believe in an afterlife and it is only reserved for the saved () as a believer you would believe you are doing that person a favor. But, the line should be drawn when the person doesn't wish to be converted. My attitude is someone is always free to make the first effort but if I tell them I am not interested then they are crossing the line if they continue. No means no.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 5:12:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 5:13:18 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 5:13:58 AM EDT
I am not obligated to convert those that don't want to be converted.


Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 5:49:29 AM EDT
Yup. Same moral equivelent.

Course, if there isn't really a snake THERE then what? Then the person steps down on the mirage and walks on by UNHARMED. Baffling only to the one that BELIEVED in the mirage.

And SGTAR is dead on. While I feel someone that believes should wish to pass on their beliefs and would welcome the opportunity to convert someone there isn't an obligation.

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:08:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine.

I'm called to speak the truth whenever there is an open door (i.e. the individual has not yet made it clear they don't want to hear it anymore) When they do so, I quit.

Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door."




good way to go about it and totally agree on the implied consent in coming ot this forum ;p

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:11:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:14:51 AM EDT
Tj

You are 100% correct. We won't know until we die.

One of South Parks funniest episodes was when they met god. And all the ministers et al were asking who was RIGHT. Per SP the Mormons are.

FWIW.

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:21:57 AM EDT
I was raised Catholic and I am now Methodist. Both churches taught me that Christ ordered us as Christians to spread the word as part of our faith. I found this article which is titled after a common expression, "The Great Commission". It is a good read and a lot of what it says is indicative of what I was taught.


What Is the Great Commission?
by Gil Yoder

The term "Great Commission" is never mentioned expressly in the word of God, but this does not mean that the term is unscriptural. Most if not all those who believe the Bible to be the word of God have used the term down through the ages with little misunderstanding as to its meaning. So why is the question important now?

In recent days and years several have begun to teach that the Great Commission is not binding on the church, and thus any argument based on the Great Commission is an argument without merit. Some brethren have taught that the church has no duty to preach the gospel to the lost, or to do mission work, while others will affirm that these duties are implied in passages and commands other than the Great Commission. In both cases churches that affirm this doctrine have caused doctrinal divisions and churches have split.

We challenged one of the proponents of this new doctrine, brother Marion Fox of Oklahoma City, to defend the following proposition:

The scriptures teach that the Great Commission is a commission that was binding only on the apostles.

Brother fox replied, "I remind you that you have not even defined what you mean by the great commission, what verses are entailed in it, what commandments are entailed in it, what promises are entailed in it." We would respond to this in two ways, first to say that brother Fox and others that support his view have made the affirmative argument that the Great Commission is binding only on the apostles, so it would seem to be their obligation to define what they mean by the term. However, we are happy to define what we mean by the term, Great Commission.

By this term we have in mind what practically all have in mind when the term is used. The Great Commission is a commission that was given by Christ following his resurrection, and before his ascension into heaven to sit on the Father's right hand. The two most well known assertions of this commission are found in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16. When those passages are combined the Great Commission can be stated in these words:

Go ye therefore, [into all the world] and teach [preach the gospel to] all nations [every creature], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

When you look at this statement of the commission you find two essential commands in the words "go" and "teach" (make disciples) or "preach," the scope or realm in which those commands are to be carried out, "all the world," "all nations," and "every creature," the means by which these commands are to carried out, teaching men to observe the laws of Christ, and baptizing them, and a promise that Christ would be with those observing the commission unto the end of the world. These are the primarily elements of the Great Commission.

It is a mistake, however, to view this commission as a one time command. While the clearest expression of the Great Commission can be found in these two passages, it is easy to find the commission to preach the gospel to the world in many other places in the New Testament. Another parallel passage to these two passages is found in Luke 24:46-48, which reads, "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

Further these concepts are taught and commanded repeatedly throughout the New Testament. So we find Peter writing that we should "sanctify the Lord God in [our] hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man." Why "every man"? Because that is what it means to take the gospel to the whole world.

Paul wrote, "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man" (Col. 4:6). This again is a restatement of the commission (our obligation) to present the gospel to all nations.

To Timothy Paul commanded, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Tim. 4:2). What is the Great Commission, if it is not a command to "preach the word"?

Everywhere the command to preach and to teach can be found in the New Testament the Great Commission underlies that command. We are not to withhold the truth from any man or woman, without regard to national origin or to social status, for God is no respecter of persons. It is even behind the command in 1 Timothy 2:1 to pray for "all men," because it is God's will that "all men be saved" (v. 4), and that by praying for "a quiet and peaceable life" (v. 3) the gospel might have a more free course to spread throughout the world.

Some of those who claim that the Great Commission was binding on the apostles only are willingly ignorant of the fact that all of the provisions of the Great Commission are taught throughout the New Testament and applied to the church in general, and they contradict themselves when they say that while the Great Commission is not binding, we are nevertheless still bound to preach the gospel to the world. The command to preach the gospel to the world is the Great Commission! So those who claim that the church has no duty to preach the gospel to the world are more consistent that those who don't make that claim, but only marginally so, for it is that same commission that authorizes us to preach in our local communities as well.

The consistent implication of the view that the Great Commission is not binding today is that we are not authorized to preach the gospel today, not in a foreign land, not in our own states, and not even in the churches where we are members. That is the logical implication of this position. The fact that the scriptures command us to preach the gospel to the lost, to every creature, to all nations of the world, is evidence that the Great Commission that Jesus first gave his disciples in Matthew 28 is still binding on us today, and that those who reject this view take an illogical approach to the word of God.

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:42:49 AM EDT
Not everybody Paul preached to accepted the message of the Gospel.

His part was to present the message. What is done with it then is up to the individual.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:24:22 AM EDT
True conversion to Christianity is a personal experience when the Holy Ghost confirms the truth of the Gospel to a person. I can't convert another person. Only the Holy Ghost can do that.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:30:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine.

I'm called to speak the truth whenever there is an open door (i.e. the individual has not yet made it clear they don't want to hear it anymore) When they do so, I quit.

Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door."




+1

Christians can't convert anyone, only God is able to do that.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:31:28 AM EDT
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Ezek 2:7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they [are] most rebellious.


I am sorry that I fall short in these matters.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:32:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:
A Christian converted me from AK-47. To AR-15.



that cracked me up!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:51:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 8:52:07 AM EDT by BeetleBailey]
The bible tells us that we are here for "God's pleasure". We are to commune with the Lord and to haelp save others from their sin and eternal wrath through the blood of Christ Jesus. Plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:43:51 AM EDT
I have an obligation to present the truth of the Gospel and the hope of salvation through Christ. That is all I can do; because I cannot make anyone "believe."
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:11:04 PM EDT
Bump & tag.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:51:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alaman:
"Go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples of all men, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have taught you and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the Earth". Christs last words to us Christians. Says it all.

Some will listen and be saved. Some will not and we are to shake the dust off our shoes and leave them per instructions. We do not do the conversions. God does and we are only His conduits. Some cultivate, some sow, and some reap but all is through God.



Well said.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:47:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By garandman:
No, I do not beleive I am called on to convert anyone.

That's God's business, not mine....



big +1 there.

conversion comes through the Holy Spirit.



+1 to what they said.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:54:03 PM EDT
Yep, it is a part of being a Christian and doesn't have to lead to "endless discussions", be offensive, get you fired from your job, or be heavy-handed.

You just have to look for opportunities to witness to others as they pop up in daily life, conversations with others, etc. It helps to let folks know that you are human, make mistakes and sin like everybody else, but God makes it better. Ain't nothing better than the promise of sins forgiven and eternal life in heaven!

We were asked by Jesus to spread the gospel. That kind of wraps it up.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:50:50 PM EDT
1pe 3:15 kjv

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


always liked this one.i don't try to convert anyone,but i got a answer.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:11:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 9:12:30 PM EDT by Winston_Wolf]

Originally Posted By garandman:

... I'm called to speak the truth whenever there is an open door ...



... a big + one, agreed!

... Truth is based on fact - knowledge, based on each individual's human-nature to better understand the interactions of the universe's elements and forces over the time continuum. There is order in the chaos, and it is solid proof that a Supreme (superior to mankind, some call him God) being exists.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:18:11 PM EDT
Should I, or am I supposed to convert others?

If you are so stuborn to deny your medicine, or share it with others,
what can be said ?

GM

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:32:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:
Should I, or am I supposed to convert others?

If you are so stuborn to deny your medicine, or share it with others,
what can be said ?

GM




... So very true!
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:00:41 PM EDT
Matthew chapter 5, versus 14-16 sum it up for me.

14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

I try to demonstrate God's grace and love through my everyday dealings with others. I will share what limited knowledge I have of scripture if it is applicable. As others have said, I can't convert anyone, I can only share Gods word and offer guidance by example.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 4:52:36 AM EDT
Good stuff.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:12:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:
Should I, or am I supposed to convert others?

If you are so stuborn to deny your medicine, or share it with others,
what can be said ?

GM




... So very true!




I noticed that you, figuratively, had your rear handed to you on a plate by Eric the other day in the devil thread in GD.


I see that, being the big man that you are, you decided to devote some time to trolling the religion forum, in retaliation.

What a fine man you must be.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:46:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:
Should I, or am I supposed to convert others?

If you are so stuborn to deny your medicine, or share it with others,
what can be said ?

GM




I'm actually partly in agreement with this.

I've got the best message in the world. I would be wrong NOT to tell people.

Just like I would be wrong NOT to save a drowning person, if it was within my power to do so.

But then again, were I trying to save a drowning person, and they pull a figurative gun on me, I'm gonna let them drown.

That said, I do NOT consider me telling people of my beliefs about Scripture on the internet as forcing anything on anyone. When you see my posts, you can ignore them. Reading my posts ONLY EVER happens because you choose to do so.

Responding to my posts will ALWAYS be considered a solicitation of my beliefs.

Plan accordingly.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:01:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

... trolling the religion forum



... Oh no, I'm not trolling - I'm dead serious

... and just what kind of Christian man are you to be passing judgement on other board members and criticizing their opinions?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:10:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 9:10:53 AM EDT by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

... trolling the religion forum



... Oh no, I'm not trolling - I'm dead serious

... and just what kind of Christian man are you to be passing judgement on other board members and criticizing their opinions?



Passing judgement? Hardly.

Again, you have proved that few, if any, outside the Christian faith have any clue as to what 'judgement' is.

I have no clue as to the fate of your soul. That I will not judge. Yes, I know what road you're on - but I know you can change.

I'm not sure if we should laugh, or cry, when you come in here all self-righteous and troll the religion forum for no better reason than because you couldn't handle losing an arguement the other day.

Get over yourself, and get out of this forum until you have something useful to contribute, or a legitimate question.

Anybody here would be more than glad to respond to any legitimate question you have. In the meantime, enough with the trolling.


edit:

As for you being dead serious...i doubt it.


But if you are....you're also dead wrong.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:40:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

... get out of this forum ...



... Oh, I'm sorry - I didn't realize it was yours I had to seek permission to enter

... It's pretty simple for you, read slowly - If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read or respond to them
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:42:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

... get out of this forum ...



... Oh, I'm sorry - I didn't realize it was yours I had to seek permission to enter

... It's pretty simple for you, read slowly - If you don't like opposing opinions, don't read or respond to them



You're welcomed to do the same, y'know......
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 12:24:22 PM EDT
What Cavu said - If we live our lives each day the way God wants us to, our lights will be a witness for God. As I've mentioned before, I believe that God speaks to each of our hearts and our response is what matters. I think that sometimes that is through the Holy Spirit without human assistance and sometimes it is through humans. The light we present as our testimony may help others on their paths in life. That testimony is not just words - although words are important. If our lives do not back up our words our lights don't do much to illuminate others' paths. We will be known by the love we show others.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 12:48:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 12:50:54 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By lefinstructor:
What Cavu said - If we live our lives each day the way God wants us to, our lights will be a witness for God. As I've mentioned before, I believe that God speaks to each of our hearts and our response is what matters. I think that sometimes that is through the Holy Spirit without human assistance and sometimes it is through humans. The light we present as our testimony may help others on their paths in life. That testimony is not just words - although words are important. If our lives do not back up our words our lights don't do much to illuminate others' paths. We will be known by the love we show others.



_____________________________________________

"If our lives do not back up our words our lights don't do much to illuminate others' paths. We will be known by the love we show others"

Quite well said overall, and particularly the quote I extracted above. This is a point I've referenced before, that being what we share in common is far greater than what dogmatic discourse would seperate our society. For instance, I'm Jewish, and I perceive you may be Christian.

What I enjoyed from your post is what we both believe as practical application of our shared ethos. This forum has trended to be more divisive in context to co-religionists rather than an informed platform for discussion...Thank you.


Ed
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:38:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door."



It is possible to participate here, discuss your beliefs and mine, and to be genuinely interested in what you believe, without any desire or 'open door' to convert.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:23:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Another persons Participation in the religion forum constitutes "an open door."



It is possible to participate here, discuss your beliefs and mine, and to be genuinely interested in what you believe, without any desire or 'open door' to convert.




Lemme put it this way -

I will consider any participation in Religion, and any response to my posts in GD as a solicitation of my beliefs.

Lifes too short to have to figger out how much of my opinion people want, so I go with this rule.



Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:21:12 PM EDT
Please excuse my ignorance, but whom is it , as Christians, are you trying to convert? Secondly, if this conversion does not take place, the only direction is damnation for non Christians? Are those beliefs so strong that nothing can exist out of this belief?

Just trying to understand your point of view...
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 4:10:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SilentRun:
Please excuse my ignorance, but whom is it , as Christians, are you trying to convert?
Just trying to understand your point of view...




Fair questions -

But again, the purpose is not to "convert" anyone. The Bible actually uses the analogy of spreading seed. Its not that the gardener is trying to force a specific single square inch of ground to grow a plant, its that he's putting out seed for whatever patch of ground has the necessary conditions for supporting plant growth.



Secondly, if this conversion does not take place, the only direction is damnation for non Christians?


Yes, the Bible teaches the unsaved are ALREADY on the way to hell. That's unpopular to say, but I'm not in this to BE popular. The Bible gives some VERY specific evidence to show a man thaty is his natural state of condition (which we can discuss if you like. In lieu of that, read Romans 3)


Are those beliefs so strong that nothing can exist out of this belief?



Yes, the Bible is exclusive in its teachings. Just like treating a gunshot wound to the stomach ALWAYS requires getting any enlodged bullet out of the human body. Somebody might come along and say "Aww, shucks its such a pretty shape....and its really actually very small, can't we just leave it in there?"

WHile the analogy is nto perfect, still the BEST means of treating a gunshot wound is to get the bullet out. There's no room for discussion, or opinion, or feelings or tolerance of a bullett in the body.

Similarly Scripture allows only one cure for the sin nature we all are born with.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:52:42 AM EDT
First let me say: I will defend to the death yours and my right to have the ability to discuss, form opinion, and present/communicate these beliefs as they are part of our Inalienable rights as Americans.

Grandman, As a JEW, I have strong beliefs as well and feel equally blessed to share those beliefs with you, without the need to feel "popular" or even to look/hope for acceptance. But it is nice to honestly and openly discuss differences, as we can choose to grow from the knowledge or simply agree to dis-agree. hare
In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.”

Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria
before being acknowledged as the Messiah. These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and
a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles
17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and
King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them
to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve
one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book
of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28:

“And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will
all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances,
and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on
the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a
covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant
and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My
dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and
they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the
Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst
forever.”

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.

The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d. A Jew is obligated to follow the Torah, One group isn’t better than the other, merely different. Therefore, certain beliefs and practices, like eating pork, are permissible for
non-Jews but not for Jews. Similarly, the majority of Christian beliefs concerning G-d, salvation and the Messiah do not violate the Noahide covenant for non-Jews, but are absolutely forbidden for Jews. (Cleaner than the gut would analogy...)

Yes, this reply will not be met with any popularity, certainly its not PC...but there it is.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:09:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 7:27:23 AM EDT by TheWind]
OK I can go with the open door, if someone is interested in Judiasm, I will talk to them about it. But there is knowing where to draw the line, I lost friends over me not having Jesus, if a Jew I know wants to follow Jesus, it is a hard call, I would want them happy and in harmony.
But for those of us that are not going to budge..it can be annoying to be pressured.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:40:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 7:43:05 AM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By SilentRun:
First let me say: I will defend to the death yours and my right to have the ability to discuss, form opinion, and present/communicate these beliefs as they are part of our Inalienable rights as Americans.

Grandman, As a JEW, I have strong beliefs as well and feel equally blessed to share those beliefs with you, without the need to feel "popular" or even to look/hope for acceptance. But it is nice to honestly and openly discuss differences, as we can choose to grow from the knowledge or simply agree to dis-agree.



I too enjoy the honest and open discussion. While I try to also keep the discussion pleasant, I realize as a human I can get heated, and I understand others may too. I try not to take the internet personally. Basically, I'n saying we can disagree strongly, and still be brothers in arms and friends.


Let me share something that we, as Jews, are taught:

In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.”

Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria
before being acknowledged as the Messiah. These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and
a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles
17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and
King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them
to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve
one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book
of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28:

“And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will
all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances,
and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on
the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a
covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant
and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My
dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and
they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the
Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst
forever.”

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.



AWESOME read on the creiteria for identifying the Messiah.

Where we might find points of disagreement is in HOW those things are fulfilled, but I agree with you - the "anointed One" MUST meet those criteria.



The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d.


Can you cite for me where the Torah makes this claim?


Yes, this reply will not be met with any popularity, certainly its not PC...but there it is.





Screw popularity - its overrated.

Any dead fish can float downstream. Only a live one can go against the current.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:40:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheWind:
OK I can go with the open door, if someone is interested in Judiasm, I will talk to them about it. But there is knowing where to draw the line, I lost friends over me not having Jesus, if a Jew I know wants to follow Jesus, it is a hard call, I would want them happy and in harmony.
But for those of us that are not going to budge..it can be annoying to be pressured.

If you think garandman is annoying, wait until you get to eternity.......
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