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Posted: 10/8/2007 9:30:14 AM EST
What's the deal? I can't believe that people in the Iraq government & police actually have the balls to keep repeatedly stating that the BW contractors murdered 20 Iraqi citizens just for the hell of it. Do they actually think that we here in the USA are stupid enough to believe them? I just read this morning some quotes along the lines of "Not even one stone was thrown at them!" to provoke the gun fire and deaths.

Has there even been one bit of legit evidence, trustworthy eye witness, video or anything else that even suggests any improper actions by BW?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:37:41 AM EST
They don't need the truth, accusations are enough to fuel propaganda. As far as where I stand on the BW issue: Good Shoot.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:38:28 AM EST
Not us but the super libs.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:40:08 AM EST
maybe we won't but you'd better believe some nuts in this country will eat that shit right up and never think twice about facts
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:43:25 AM EST
People are idiots.

Fucking dip-shit-idiots.

There are protests in Commie-fornia now because BW wants to build a training center there. Their signs read "STOP THE MERCENARIES". I think the only rational explanation is that they were born retarded by acid licking hippies but somehow slipped by all the tests in school and are now in circulation and having babies.

I would welcome BW to my backyard then I wouldn't have to travel so far.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:45:57 AM EST
I'm not going to make any judgements one way of the other on this issue. I don't have anywhere near enough facts to determine what happened.

In answer to the question here, I'd have a hard time believing that this was just an unprovoked massacre. However, I would not have a problem believing that the Blackwater guys came under fire and retaliated against everyone within shooting distance.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:47:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not going to make any judgements one way of the other on this issue. I don't have anywhere near enough facts to determine what happened.

In answer to the question here, I'd have a hard time believing that this was just an unprovoked massacre. However, I would not have a problem believing that the Blackwater guys came under fire and retaliated against everyone within shooting distance.


I would find this a very likely scenario.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:55:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not going to make any judgements one way of the other on this issue. I don't have anywhere near enough facts to determine what happened.

In answer to the question here, I'd have a hard time believing that this was just an unprovoked massacre. However, I would not have a problem believing that the Blackwater guys came under fire and retaliated against everyone within shooting distance.


I would find this a very likely scenario.


Beat me in John.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:52:53 PM EST

Do they actually think we're stupid enough to believe that BW killed them for the hell of it?


It's not a big leap of faith for many.
A lot of people here think the ATF/FBI killed the Branch Davidian's for the hell of it.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:55:25 PM EST
Why not? They need Bush to believe them and want to take the easy way out, as is his wont. If you don't think that the rest of the world sees him as clearly as we do, you're wrong.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:57:34 PM EST
i bet they were under attack and fired at all possible targets
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:59:00 PM EST
Do they actually think that I care?

Not to sound totally heartless... But there's enough shit going on Stateside that should be reported on. Leave the war in the war zone, and let DoD handle it.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:04:50 PM EST
I for one dont care either way. Their mission there is to protect OUR high level government officials while in country, and so far they have not had one WIA or KIA VIP since operations began there. If our government wants to hire some people who are less apt to use force for their protection thats on them as its not my ass on the line. I just dont want to hear one fucking person whine when some dignitary gets his head cut off and the video posted on the net.


With that said I am much more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to BW than some Iraqi minister... Ive seen what some of them fuckers will do first hand.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:05:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By ScoutOut:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
...Over 16000 missions with around 180 shots fired incidents.



I doubt the accuracy of that estimate.

Maybe 180 incidents reported. There's no way that accounts for every warning shot ever fired.


They have to file a report for every time they shoot their firearms.

There are over 170 different PSC operating in Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:06:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
During a war nobody has ever killed anyone just because they could. Its not like war dehumanizes the opponent or anything.


I disagree.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:07:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By southfloridaguns:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
During a war nobody has ever killed anyone just because they could. Its not like war dehumanizes the opponent or anything.


I disagree.


Sarcasm
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:07:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not going to make any judgements one way of the other on this issue. I don't have anywhere near enough facts to determine what happened.

In answer to the question here, I'd have a hard time believing that this was just an unprovoked massacre. However, I would not have a problem believing that the Blackwater guys came under fire and retaliated against everyone within shooting distance.


I would find this a very likely scenario.


+1 summed it up better than I could
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:10:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 6:12:12 PM EST by cluster]

Originally Posted By southfloridaguns:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
During a war nobody has ever killed anyone just because they could. Its not like war dehumanizes the opponent or anything.


I disagree.


I agree with southfloridaguns .. dont condone it.. but I understand..

now the people protesting with the " stop the mercenaries " signs..

BW should use that to their advantage..

use it in their motto or something..


when recruiting..

" DO YOUR part in stopping the mercenaries "


Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:12:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By ScoutOut:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
...Over 16000 missions with around 180 shots fired incidents.



I doubt the accuracy of that estimate.

Maybe 180 incidents reported. There's no way that accounts for every warning shot ever fired.


They have to file a report for every time they shoot their firearms.

There are over 170 different PSC operating in Iraq.



There's a difference between policy and reality. Do you really think they're going to fill out a Serious Incident Report everytime they fire a warning shot.

We used to have a little saying, "What happens in rabbit stays in rabbit. What happens in trail stays in trail."
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:00:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:03:38 PM EST by WildBoar]
They are all idiots and will believe anything that makes Americans look bad. Theses are the tards who think our troops shades enable them to look through their womens clothes.

Screw them.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:25:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By FlyingAttackPorcupin:
Even if they got bored and just decided to kill unarmed civilians, it wouldn't really bother me either. It's a war zone, not Disneyland. And to me the American lives over there are far more valuable than the Iraqi civilians' lives anyways.

And again, above all else, Americans come first in my mind.


If you would open your mind for just a moment, you would realize that intentionally killing unarmed civilians is bad for our troops and America in general. That sort of thing creates enemies, not allies and friends.

That is one of the worst things we could do over there, beside colonization.

If that's true, then think for a moment about the well being of Iraqi civilians.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:49:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 8:49:26 PM EST by destaccado]

Originally Posted By BLY:

Originally Posted By FlyingAttackPorcupin:
Even if they got bored and just decided to kill unarmed civilians, it wouldn't really bother me either. It's a war zone, not Disneyland. And to me the American lives over there are far more valuable than the Iraqi civilians' lives anyways.

And again, above all else, Americans come first in my mind.


If you would open your mind for just a moment, you would realize that intentionally killing unarmed civilians is bad for our troops and America in general. That sort of thing creates enemies, not allies and friends.

That is one of the worst things we could do over there, beside colonization.

If that's true, then think for a moment about the well being of Iraqi civilians.


Well, lets just let them all move over here then.....lets give them free medical care and welfare payments too- I bet they'd love us then and would tell all the friends how great America is and not attack us anymore......
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:03:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By FlyingAttackPorcupin:
Even if they got bored and just decided to kill unarmed civilians, it wouldn't really bother me either.

If Iraqi civilians die over there, I don't really care. I just don't.


I'm ashamed we share the same country.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:24:41 AM EST
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:27:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:33:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TRy again there Bama---I've one current and one former NOPD Sergeant, along with two current and former PO, who were there and can back me up.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:36:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
So the theory is that most or all of the guys on this particular PSD team decided --just this once-- to kill as many as they could of whoever they could hit in payback for this IED attack? How did they get the State Department FSOs --the protectees in the motorcade-- to go along with their story?

I wonder if anyone has done any wacky Gil Grissom CSI shit over there: checked the hands of the dead and wounded for gunshot residue, or checked for the caliber of weapons that put those civilians down.


These sort of hyperbolic responses miss the point. Even if they didn't go out looking to hose down a corner, they still responded poorly to the situation.

If an armored car in you town was being robbed, and the guards killed 10-15 people standing around on the corner, people would be really indignant. It wasn't intentional but it was still a poor and sloppy response resulting in innocent deaths and someone has to stand accountable for it - that's why we have manslaughter charges.

The jist I'm getting here is that most people don't care because "they was just good ole boys shooting at some Mohammedans." But imagine the scenario in New York or Chicago and you can damn well bet ARFcom would be on fire with people calling for butts.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:39:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 4:40:14 AM EST by FlyingAttackPorcupin]

Originally Posted By JonasWright:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
So the theory is that most or all of the guys on this particular PSD team decided --just this once-- to kill as many as they could of whoever they could hit in payback for this IED attack? How did they get the State Department FSOs --the protectees in the motorcade-- to go along with their story?

I wonder if anyone has done any wacky Gil Grissom CSI shit over there: checked the hands of the dead and wounded for gunshot residue, or checked for the caliber of weapons that put those civilians down.


These sort of hyperbolic responses miss the point. Even if they didn't go out looking to hose down a corner, they still responded poorly to the situation.

If an armored car in you town was being robbed, and the guards killed 10-15 people standing around on the corner, people would be really indignant. It wasn't intentional but it was still a poor and sloppy response resulting in innocent deaths and someone has to stand accountable for it - that's why we have manslaughter charges.

The jist I'm getting here is that most people don't care because "they was just good ole boys shooting at some Mohammedans." But imagine the scenario in New York or Chicago and you can damn well bet ARFcom would be on fire with people calling for butts.


Thats the whole point. It wasnt Americans getting killed. It was Iraqis. Call us when it's Americans and we will start caring more. As it stands the Americans were the ones behind the triggers. They can do whatever they feel needs to be done to come home safe if you ask me.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:53:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By FlyingAttackPorcupin:

Originally Posted By JonasWright:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
So the theory is that most or all of the guys on this particular PSD team decided --just this once-- to kill as many as they could of whoever they could hit in payback for this IED attack? How did they get the State Department FSOs --the protectees in the motorcade-- to go along with their story?

I wonder if anyone has done any wacky Gil Grissom CSI shit over there: checked the hands of the dead and wounded for gunshot residue, or checked for the caliber of weapons that put those civilians down.


These sort of hyperbolic responses miss the point. Even if they didn't go out looking to hose down a corner, they still responded poorly to the situation.

If an armored car in you town was being robbed, and the guards killed 10-15 people standing around on the corner, people would be really indignant. It wasn't intentional but it was still a poor and sloppy response resulting in innocent deaths and someone has to stand accountable for it - that's why we have manslaughter charges.

The jist I'm getting here is that most people don't care because "they was just good ole boys shooting at some Mohammedans." But imagine the scenario in New York or Chicago and you can damn well bet ARFcom would be on fire with people calling for butts.


Thats the whole point. It wasnt Americans getting killed. It was Iraqis. Call us when it's Americans and we will start caring more. As it stands the Americans were the ones behind the triggers. They can do whatever they feel needs to be done to come home safe if you ask me.


If you want to take that stance, that's fine. But remember we're supposed to be the good guys in Iraq. If we are wacking their people with no accountability all we're doing is showing two points.
1) The US doesn't care about Iraqi sovereignty or the rights of Iraqis to enforce their laws.
2) The US will actively deny Iraqi courts from seeking redress against American citizens for crimes committed against Iraqis.

Now if Al-Sadr stands up in the mosque and declares these two things - what will our response be, other than, "well, yeah?"

People don't tolerate being second-class in their own countries for very long, and incidents like this have a tendency to go very, very poorly for the perpetrators. (Look up Ireland). I'm not saying we need to cough up the BW guys for the kangaroo courts, but we better get our heads out of the sand and defuse the situation.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:57:48 AM EST
People are stupid



Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:10:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I found the Congressional Report on BW very interesting. It stated that BW has used their weapons more than the other two companies (TC and Dyncorp) combined. Yet failed to recognize that BW has 4 times as many missions combined than the other two companies. Over 16000 missions with around 180 shots fired incidents. BW operates priamarily in Baghdad the most violent area and the other two operate primarily in the more restive north and south. Also that based on number of missions and shots fired all three companies are running basically the same percentage points in shots fired to missions. Hmmmmmmm.

Also contractors under DoD contracts fall under UCMJ and DoS contractors fall under US Law as determined by the DoJ.

This is nothing more than a politcal witch hunt because Erik Prince is a Republican.

With his family history of wealth and political connections, he makes a wonderful target for Democrats on the Hill. They'll have a hard time portraying him as anything other than the committed patriot and superior businessman he is, but that doesn't mean they won't give it their best shot. I'm sure they're not done with him yet, his appearance before their committee notwithstanding.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:51:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TRy again there Bama---I've one current and one former NOPD Sergeant, along with two current and former PO, who were there and can back me up.


Let me rephrase. Comments, maybe. Meant anything? No.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:56:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
So the theory is that most or all of the guys on this particular PSD team decided --just this once-- to kill as many as they could of whoever they could hit in payback for this IED attack?


Without having anything to back it up, I would guess that what probably happened was not that they decided to kill as many of whoever the could hit, but that they were returning fire and didn't care who they hit.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:04:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By ScoutOut:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
...Over 16000 missions with around 180 shots fired incidents.



I doubt the accuracy of that estimate.

Maybe 180 incidents reported. There's no way that accounts for every warning shot ever fired.


DoS ROE: There are NO warning shots. If you have flipped the weapon to "Fire," you are having a bad day.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:09:15 AM EST
Well history will show that the best way to lose a war is fight it with LAWYERS!!

And thats where we are headed right now!
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:24:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TRy again there Bama---I've one current and one former NOPD Sergeant, along with two current and former PO, who were there and can back me up.


So what? Those motherfucking useless walking turds that were SHOOTING at rescue copters? Hell yeah, if I was there to help people and they started shooting at me, I would GLADLY go out and try to KILL THE FUCKERS FIRST.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:25:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quien:

Originally Posted By ScoutOut:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
...Over 16000 missions with around 180 shots fired incidents.



I doubt the accuracy of that estimate.

Maybe 180 incidents reported. There's no way that accounts for every warning shot ever fired.


DoS ROE: There are NO warning shots. If you have flipped the weapon to "Fire," you are having a bad day.



Once again, there's a difference between policy and reality. I wasn't DoS. I was DoD. But I think our RuF's were probably pretty much the same. Warning shots weren't authorized but we were allowed to shoot to eliminate threats. If removing that threat can be accomplished by putting a couple of rounds in the dirt in front of a car that it is heading directly at you and refusing to yield, despite the fact that your waving a VS-17 panel at him, I think that's a prudent use of force. I also see no reason to fill out an SIR for it or for that matter to let the client even know it ever happened.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:27:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By BLY:
I don't buy the BS they try to spoon-feed us.

If BlackWater killed non-combatants in an engagement or due to the shear stupidity/ignorance of Iraqi citizens causing BW employees to fear for the safety of the VIP under their protection, then I could accept that as collateral damage.

How do you think they have such an outstanding record in the VIP protection arena? Because they do their job well.


agreed. whats the total now: 30 BW guys KIA and ZERO vips killed. sounds like they are doing the job to me
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:30:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By phatmax:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Can't speak to this incident, but I was present when a pack of BW asshats were getting ready to roll out on a boat and one of them said "C'mon, let's go get some skinnies."
This remark was met with assorted "hoo-ahh" responses. And they were talking about American citizens, residents of my flooded city. So I could believe it.



BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TRy again there Bama---I've one current and one former NOPD Sergeant, along with two current and former PO, who were there and can back me up.


So what? Those motherfucking useless walking turds that were SHOOTING at rescue copters? Hell yeah, if I was there to help people and they started shooting at me, I would GLADLY go out and try to KILL THE FUCKERS FIRST.


There were only three or four incidents of shots fired by BW during Katrina, all ND's.

All were asked, Window or aisle?
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:54:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:06:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By JonasWright:
These sort of hyperbolic responses miss the point. Even if they didn't go out looking to hose down a corner, they still responded poorly to the situation.


Which is a great leap to make considering we know precisely ZIP about the details of how the fight went down, save for a report by a DOS employee that lists an IED, a disabled vehicle, and heavy small arms fire coming at the BW guys....

But, hey. You have better info than that, right? So you can safely say that they screwed the pooch, and can say without fear of contradiction that it was BW bullets that killed all those "civilians" at the corner, and that none of the dead "civilians" were actually insurgents who just had their weapons carried off, right?
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:12:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By IBU-14_Gunner:
.....Do they actually think that we here in the USA are stupid enough to believe them? ......



Uhhhh... I think the media was calling for BW to be charged before the Iraqis.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 12:01:04 PM EST
Well I read the Iraqi spin on it from the guys that want to press charges. Even by their account,. there was an IED at less than 100yards away, and a white car speeding toward the convoy and not stopping or pulling out of the way. I don't consider that to be a completely unreasonable shoot. And they even admitted they had trouble piecing everything together after the fact. I mean how does the body count keep changing? The story keep changing? This is a completely politically motivated hatchet job. If they want to lodge a complaint, I have heard far worse things happening, and seen worse on sites like LiveLeak.

If the Iraqi govt doesn't want us or our contractors there anymore then we should pull everyone out. I mean they obviously have things under control better than us right.....

When are we going to start playing hardball with how their govt and military are shaping up. Or in not shaping up as the case may be.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:04:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wrekless:
Well I read the Iraqi spin on it from the guys that want to press charges. Even by their account,. there was an IED at less than 100yards away, and a white car speeding toward the convoy and not stopping or pulling out of the way. I don't consider that to be a completely unreasonable shoot. And they even admitted they had trouble piecing everything together after the fact. I mean how does the body count keep changing? The story keep changing? This is a completely politically motivated hatchet job. If they want to lodge a complaint, I have heard far worse things happening, and seen worse on sites like LiveLeak.

If the Iraqi govt doesn't want us or our contractors there anymore then we should pull everyone out. I mean they obviously have things under control better than us right.....

When are we going to start playing hardball with how their govt and military are shaping up. Or in not shaping up as the case may be.


There's a video link at another forum that shows a pickup from the scene with an obvious rocket launcher hole through the drivers door. Along with a large hole punched into a concrete wall that was from a rocket launcher.

I had seen a video of an IP who was at the scene of the shooting who also said the car that was carrying the women who were first shot at by BW was also hit by an RPG. Which is what caused the expolison and for it to burn.

Also it was kind of hard for me to tell but I could have sworn some of the shell casing in certain parts of the video appeared to be 7.62x39 to me not .556.
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