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Posted: 8/2/2005 8:57:07 AM EDT

China's spies come out from the cold
By Tim Luard



Modern spies are not thought to be the shadowy figures of the past
More than a decade after the end of the Cold War, spies are back in the news.

But instead of hardened KGB agents lurking on street corners in dark glasses, the spy stories appearing in the Western press recently have been about fresh-faced Chinese students.

Some are said to be engaged in research at respected foreign establishments, while others are enrolled as bright young business trainees in major Western companies.


Their mission - or so the reports allege - is to use fair means or foul to gather technological and commercial intelligence that will help speed China on its way to becoming the next global superpower.

Britain's Sunday Telegraph reported recently that a leading Chinese agent had "defected" in Belgium and blown the whistle on hundreds of Chinese spies working at various levels of European industry.

Like rape victims, companies that have been infiltrated are reluctant to talk about it

John Fialka,
Author of War by Other Means
The Belgian-based economic espionage network used a group called The Chinese Students' and Scholars' Association of Leuven as a front organisation, according to the French newspaper Le Monde.

These allegations follow the case of a 22-year-old Chinese woman who was detained in France after being accused of "illegal database intrusion" by the car-parts maker Valeo, which had employed her as an intern. She has since been released.

Police in Sweden also suspect Chinese guest researchers of stealing unpublished and unpatented research from an institute there, according to the Swedish radio Ekot's website.

Gaining experience

Chen Yonglin, a Chinese diplomat who recently defected in Australia, claimed Beijing had as many as 1,000 spies in Australia alone.

But Mr Chen, a former first secretary at the Chinese consulate-general in Sydney, told the BBC News website that his lawyers had told him to say no more, for fear of jeopardising his chances of receiving political asylum.

The cool response to Mr Chen's and other defectors' requests says much about current Western attitudes towards China.

Whether in government, business or academic circles, there is a general reluctance to do or say anything that might unduly upset Beijing and threaten access to its markets - not to mention its vast pool of high-paying and often highly gifted students.


Li-Li Whuang was accused of "database intrusion" in France
China has sent 600,000 students overseas in the past 25 years as part of a conscious policy of developing its science, technology and business skills.

While some belong to well-off families who simply want their children to get a good education, most are funded by the government and are expected to return to help their country afterwards.

"It is very easy for Chinese companies or intelligence agencies to approach these students - who are often quite nationalistic - and get them to collect information that might be of either commercial or military interest," said Christian le Miere, Asia Editor of Jane's Country Risk.

The recent defections suggest there are so many such contacts that what they produce could amount to a valuable pool of intelligence, he said.

In one case that came to light in the US, Chinese agents are said to have put pressure on a recruit by telling him that his family in China was at risk if he failed to do what they wanted.

But few such cases come to court, since they are hard to prove and involve people trained not to be caught, said John Fialka, author of a book on espionage, War by Other Means.

"And like rape victims, companies that have been infiltrated are reluctant to talk about it. They don't want people to know they've been hoodwinked by their own staff," he added.

Military connections

There is often a fine line between what is legal and what is not.

Asian societies tend to have a less legalistic view of intellectual property than some other nations, Mr Fialka said.

But China differs from many other countries because of the way its economic entities are still intertwined with the government and military, he added.

China has about 3,000 "front" companies in the US that exist mainly to obtain technology and military secrets, according to US officials.


Chen Yonglin claims Beijing has as many as 1,000 spies in Australia
Right-wing groups in the US, and opposition parties in Australia, Canada and elsewhere, are warning that Western countries may one day regret allowing China to take advantage of their openness and tolerance.

The dramatic growth in China's economic and political power will soon be matched in the military sphere, they claim.

But China has indignantly denied the spying allegations as fabrications stemming from narrow-minded fears of legitimate commercial and industrial competition.

Louis Turner, chief executive of the London-based Asia Pacific Technology Network, says it is a natural part of the "catch-up" process to place people as close as possible to where the best research is being done and get them to send back information.

"Just as Japan used to effectively steal a few tricks when it was learning from the West, I would be enormously surprised if China wasn't involved in some sort of technical espionage... and no doubt some of this is backed by the Chinese military," he said.

But he said China was genuinely keen on two-way collaboration - and said the main factors behind its rapid progress in science and technology were its sheer size, economic dynamism and willingness to learn.

Some of China's own universities are now producing world-class researchers, and some of its science parks are comparable with Silicon Valley in the 1960s, he added - "but with much more cohesiveness ... and on a much bigger scale".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4704691.stm

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:59:37 AM EDT

Do You Trust the Chinese


Nope.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:00:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Do You Trust the Chinese


Nope.



+1
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:00:34 AM EDT
About as much as I like eating dogs...
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:01:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 9:02:05 AM EDT by Ajax72]
Does a bear shit in the woods???

Of course.

Can we trust China???

HELL NO.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:05:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:05:54 AM EDT
Chinese are pretty sneaky.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:06:23 AM EDT
I don't trust the chinese govt. I worked over there in mainland China for a while. Like anywhere else, people are mostly nice. The govt is completely incompetent. If you havent't been there it would be an eye opener. Just bring some MRE's b/c the food sucks.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:06:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.



?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:09:10 AM EDT
I don't trust anyone. The Chinese are no diff.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:09:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Do You Trust the Chinese


Nope.



+1



+1000...not in a trillion years.

HH
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:09:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.



?




Koreans are much more famous for dog than chinese.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:11:14 AM EDT
I don't trust them. Every Chinese restaurant I go to makes Orange Beef differently.

As Monty Python so wisely put music to verse...here goes.

The world today seems absolutely crackers,
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There's fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing and it's senseless, and that's why...
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly, and they're ready to please.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today.
You'd better learn to like them; that's what I say.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.


I like Chinese food.
The waiters never are rude.
Think of the many things they've done to impress.
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching, and Chess.

So I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught.
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.

So, I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.

All together.

[verse in Chinese]
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Ni hao ma; ni hao ma; ni hao ma; zaijien! (How are you; how are you; how are you; goodbye!)

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine, and lychees.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees...
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:12:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.



?




Koreans are much more famous for dog than chinese.



We eat hot dogs, don't we?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:12:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.



?




Koreans are much more famous for dog than chinese.



Maybe where you're from. The chinese love them some puppies.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:16:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By senorFrog:
I don't trust the chinese govt. I worked over there in mainland China for a while. Like anywhere else, people are mostly nice. The govt is completely incompetent. If you havent't been there it would be an eye opener. Just bring some MRE's b/c the food sucks.



I'll bet you have some interesting stories to tell. How many years were you there?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:19:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:25:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Do you like Walmart, if you do, you like the Chinese.............

I haven't stepped into a walmart in over a year. I won't go back until they stop stocking 90% crap.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:36:32 AM EDT
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).

When you see a sign in NY that says "Kim's Dog Farm", it's not some lady that breeds dogs, it's probably some Korean guy selling dogs for food.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:38:58 AM EDT
No. Furthermore, I trust only about 2-3 countries in the world.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:46:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 9:47:36 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).



The chinese eat dogs. My dad's company did some work over there about 15 years ago and he brought back pictures of the meat markets on the street. You can argue "more famous" all you want, but that's subjective.

But I digress. I still don't trust them. Or the north koreans.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:55:06 AM EDT
I don't trust the Chinese government
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:58:16 AM EDT
NO
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:58:17 AM EDT
Do You Trust the Chinese?


BWAAHAHAHAHAHHA
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:59:15 AM EDT
FUCK NO!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:03:16 AM EDT

Great, this had to hit the news just as I sent out my resume to a few defense firms.

Chicoms. still fucking me in the a** 16 years after I left.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:05:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).



The chinese eat dogs. My dad's company did some work over there about 15 years ago and he brought back pictures of the meat markets on the street. You can argue "more famous" all you want, but that's subjective.

But I digress. I still don't trust them. Or the north koreans.

'


Guess what chinese eat sushi as well but who is more known for it? Japanese or chinese?

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:08:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
About as much as I like eating dogs...



Koreans.



?




Koreans are much more famous for dog than chinese.



I have read that just outside the major cities in China there are huge dog farms, with dogs like Saint Bernards, that are used for food similar to our cattle farms.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:10:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 10:10:39 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By FredM:

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.



Seriously, IMHO it doesn't really matter because I'd trust the Chicoms about as much as I'd like to eat a Labrador sammich.

IOW, NO FUCKING WAY!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:12:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).



The chinese eat dogs. My dad's company did some work over there about 15 years ago and he brought back pictures of the meat markets on the street. You can argue "more famous" all you want, but that's subjective.

But I digress. I still don't trust them. Or the north koreans.

'


Guess what chinese eat sushi as well but who is more known for it? Japanese or chinese?

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.



We eat sushi? It's news to me. Yea, dog is fair game in many rural parts of China.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:13:32 AM EDT
I trust the Chinese Gov't to do whatever it takes to dominant as many people as they can. They have no respenct for any laws or culture, except their own. They understand that power comes from the barrel of a gun. I find most Chinese people I meet to be pretty darn good people.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:18:22 AM EDT
as much as I trust the Isrealis and France.....
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:21:24 AM EDT
If they continue on their current path, the chinese communists are going to be a serious threat in 15-20 years.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:21:28 AM EDT
Of course; who else is going to make the best moo shu pork or orange beef? Don't know about dog.... well... there was the time I ate the street vendor stuff down in TJ......
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:22:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).



The chinese eat dogs. My dad's company did some work over there about 15 years ago and he brought back pictures of the meat markets on the street. You can argue "more famous" all you want, but that's subjective.

But I digress. I still don't trust them. Or the north koreans.

'


Guess what chinese eat sushi as well but who is more known for it? Japanese or chinese?



Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.



I've studied both, and you're wrong.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:32:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Koreans are more famous for eating dogs. The only Chinese that I know of that would eat dogs are Cantonese (most of the Hong Kong residents speak Cantonese) and Taiwanese (native Taiwanese).



The chinese eat dogs. My dad's company did some work over there about 15 years ago and he brought back pictures of the meat markets on the street. You can argue "more famous" all you want, but that's subjective.

But I digress. I still don't trust them. Or the north koreans.

'


Guess what chinese eat sushi as well but who is more known for it? Japanese or chinese?



Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.



I've studied both, and you're wrong.



I am wrong about what? Tell me what false.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:38:50 AM EDT
fuck no
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:49:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 10:50:21 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By FredM:


I am wrong about what? Tell me what false.

Thanks




Originally Posted By FredM:

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.



Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:54:09 AM EDT
I trust 'em about as far as I can throw 'em.......wait a minute they're pretty tiny.....I bet if I really tried I could launch one...........



Do you trust the Chinese?


HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:56:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 11:16:59 AM EDT by FredM]

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:


I am wrong about what? Tell me what false.

Thanks




Originally Posted By FredM:

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.







You argue that a sociologist could not scientifically determine if eating dog is associated more with Korean or Chinese culture?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:02:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:05:26 AM EDT

Do You Trust the Chinese?


Not a chance in hell.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:07:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By FredM:


I am wrong about what? Tell me what false.

Thanks




Originally Posted By FredM:

Its not subjective. Its a matter of culture study.







You argue that a sociologist could not scientifically determine if eating dog is associated more with Korean or Chinese culture?



Do you have credible results of such a study? If not, your assertion on which society consumes more is subjective.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:21:29 PM EDT
Chinese eat cats, damnit! You guys have it wrong!

Damn Chinamen! Can't trust a single one of them!
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:23:19 PM EDT
Nope. Not one bit. And I think the feeling is mutual.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:31:22 PM EDT
only when it comes to raamen noodles and moo shu beef....but even then, I wonder how many cows in China actually "moo" rather than "meow."
Ymmv
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:34:55 PM EDT
I have little trust in any government.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:37:23 PM EDT
Thanks, guys.... It's really nice knowing that if there's ever a shooting war with China, all y'all will want to take my job and throw my chinese ass in an internment camp....
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:40:59 PM EDT
I believe the intent of the topic is the Chinese government.

And NO, I do not trust the Chinese gvernment.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 12:42:04 PM EDT
No.

Bilster
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:50:10 PM EDT
The Chinese have been known to eat: dog, cat, rat, snake, and human child afterbith (placenta). I've even heard of them eating the fetus, but have not been able to confirm this from actual Chinese people.
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