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Posted: 4/21/2016 7:57:14 PM EDT
I'm curious what the general opinion is like here.

Personally, I find that education hits the classic identifiers of a public good, benefits are not exclusive and use by one individual does not reduce availability to another, however I was shocked to talk to my father the other week and he was vehemently opposed to the idea.

Please keep in mind that public provision of education does not prevent private provision of education any more than a public highway system prevents you from building a road on your property.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:58:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:01:11 PM EDT by FuriousYachtsman]
Education != public school, right?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:59:13 PM EDT
k-12 yes, college no.

if we are going to subsidize college it should be on a per major basis decided by business leaders, not the government
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:59:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 7:59:59 PM EDT by peekay]
I think that an intelligent and informed electorate is a good electorate. However, I don't feel that education should be tax payer funded.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:00:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By FuriousYachtsman:
Education != public school, right?
View Quote

Generally speaking, there are advantages to public goods being provided by the State, as it prevents some of the perverse incentives of a privately provided public good (charging a fee for use of a streetlight, for example).

Again, public education does not preclude private education.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:01:12 PM EDT
The founders where big on public education.

That makes me a (grudgingly) supporter of public education.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:02:01 PM EDT
Only a fool would allow his enemies to educate his children-- Malcolm X
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:02:37 PM EDT
Modern students are indoctrinated, not educated.

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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:03:18 PM EDT
Yes, but don't worry, there is always a devil in the details.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:03:26 PM EDT
It needs to be overhauled. The indoctrination is in full swing.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:09:07 PM EDT
Depends. If it's politically driven education, it's a waste of time. McGuffy's Readers for the win (and that sh*t is tough).
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:10:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By XJ:
Modern students are indoctrinated, not educated.

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And that is exactly what the problem is. They start the brainwashing in pre-K and continue till graduating high school.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:11:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By XJ:
Modern students are indoctrinated, not educated.

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Yep.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:11:44 PM EDT
Public education is fine. But the Department of Education at the Federal level should not exist at the Cabinet level.

States and localities should be the biggest drivers of education policy and implementation.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:13:19 PM EDT
Public schools are essentially day care, the indoctrination thing was probably an afterthought.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:13:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By forkbomb:
k-12 yes, college no.

if we are going to subsidize college it should be on a per major basis decided by business leaders, not the government
View Quote



Agree on K-12, disagree with "business leaders" making decisions, as their decisions would be solely to their own financial benefit and not in the interest of the public.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:14:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:15:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hondaciv:
The founders where big on public education.

That makes me a (grudgingly) supporter of public education.
View Quote

It shows.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:15:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:17:23 PM EDT by Currahee]
It is a net benefit to the society to provide a basic education.

Now (many) public schools are nothing but places for kids to be babysat between their free breakfast and their free lunch. So in many instances it is accomplishing nothing but keeping potential criminals off the street between the hours of 8am and 4pm. I guess that is still a benefit, but isn't very cost effective.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:16:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:



Agree on K-12, disagree with "business leaders" making decisions, as their decisions would be solely to their own financial benefit and not in the interest of the public.
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Originally Posted By forkbomb:
k-12 yes, college no.

if we are going to subsidize college it should be on a per major basis decided by business leaders, not the government



Agree on K-12, disagree with "business leaders" making decisions, as their decisions would be solely to their own financial benefit and not in the interest of the public.

Government officials would totally not do that
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:17:24 PM EDT
I believe a certain level of education (including content analysis and critical thinking) should be required to allow a person to be a "citizen".

It would solve a great many of our nation's problems.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:19:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:



Agree on K-12, disagree with "business leaders" making decisions, as their decisions would be solely to their own financial benefit and not in the interest of the public.
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Originally Posted By forkbomb:
k-12 yes, college no.

if we are going to subsidize college it should be on a per major basis decided by business leaders, not the government



Agree on K-12, disagree with "business leaders" making decisions, as their decisions would be solely to their own financial benefit and not in the interest of the public.


I think he means to direct people in to educational fields that lead to actual jobs, vs gender studies majors.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:20:54 PM EDT by Oiparhon]
Yes, but only the essentials: reading and writing, math, physics, bio-chem,, basic economics (if you bring no value to the group, you starve), workshop and logic.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:21:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:22:13 PM EDT by wsix]
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Originally Posted By Yarael:

And that is exactly what the problem is. They start the brainwashing in pre-K and continue till graduating high school.
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Originally Posted By Yarael:
Originally Posted By XJ:
Modern students are indoctrinated, not educated.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

And that is exactly what the problem is. They start the brainwashing in pre-K and continue till graduating high school.



That prepares them for their whiny assed college.

Kids are not taught how to process information. They are taught to take tests.

For instance, the OP took a very complicated issue and made it into a question for children where every argument has a glaring straw man as the other answer.

I strongly support education, but not publicly funded education.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:22:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Oiparhon:
Yes, but only the essentials: reading and writing, math, physics, bio-chem,, basic economics (if you bring no value to the group, you starve), workshop and logic.
View Quote

Was history left out on purpose?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:23:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:24:17 PM EDT by Lorax]
I think it was, until the Teacher's Union got so involved and big. now it's just indoctrination.

"We don't teach cursive anymore, we're thinking about dropping Algebra....but your kids would be so much smarter if you paid US more! And then we'll just turn it over to the Union bosses and they can funnel it to the Democratic Party.""


How does that work?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:24:44 PM EDT
Define 'education'

STEM, yes

Women / African American / midget studies? No
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:26:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:27:24 PM EDT by Goosemaster]
You have a basic responsibility as a society to ensure people are at least literate. Stupid people are a liability. That's about what k-12 should do.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:27:17 PM EDT
Yes, absolutely. Although it should be operated at a local level, since letting the Feds dictate education has been a disaster.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:27:21 PM EDT
Yes, education is a public good because it is nonrival in consumption and nonexcludable.

It is the responsibility of the government to provide that service, just like national defense. Sure, there are private schools, but they cater to a much smaller and niche market.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:30:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 8:31:53 PM EDT by CouncilOfDave]
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Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that an intelligent and informed electorate is a good electorate. However, I don't feel that education should be tax payer funded.
View Quote

This, at any level.

You could argue that Education falls under "Public Good", but you could argue that about mostly anything that has possible positive or negative benefits to society.

Does Healthcare fall under "Public Good"? How about any other industry?

Just because you can justify the Government involving itself in something, doesn't mean you should. Honestly Government and Public Good don't mix well together in my mind, at all.

(ETA, meaning Federal. State issue at most)
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:35:07 PM EDT
As defined in the OP, yes, having an educated populace is good for the public. It's good for a nation for that matter.

Using publicly funded schools, though... No.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:40:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that an intelligent and informed electorate is a good electorate. However, I don't feel that education should be tax payer funded.
View Quote


This.

Education, and more specifically, an intelligent, rational and moral citizenry, are certainly in the public interest. I don't see the government as effective in reaching any of those goals, and I also don't believe it to be their responsibility.

It's ours.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:45:47 PM EDT
This thread will identify the rent seekers. Don't feel bad immediately. It's ingrained into most cultures, similar to the way socialized medicine is.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:48:39 PM EDT
Education funded via theft ie taxation is not a right.



Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:54:34 PM EDT
Everyone benefits from a more educated society. EVERYONE.

There are awfully few services that I think the government should be providing, but education is definitely one of them.

In fact, my version of "welfare" would be "We won't give you money, but we'll help you find a job." And in some circumstances, it would extend to "And as long as you are working, and as long as you are getting good grades, we'll even provide schooling so you can get a BETTER-PAYING job." I won't fish for you, but I'll let you fish, and even teach you how to fish better.

If that makes me FSA, socialist, rent-seeker, whatever, so be it. But that's the one area where government spending can actually make a country better, richer, more peaceful, etc., etc..
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:59:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Nightfalcon007:
Education funded via theft ie taxation is not a right.



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Go ahead and cut your nose off to spite your face.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:14:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lawless_Flogic:
I'm curious what the general opinion is like here.

Personally, I find that education hits the classic identifiers of a public good, benefits are not exclusive and use by one individual does not reduce availability to another, however I was shocked to talk to my father the other week and he was vehemently opposed to the idea.

Please keep in mind that public provision of education does not prevent private provision of education any more than a public highway system prevents you from building a road on your property.
View Quote


Bernie? Is that you?

If that's really how you feel then I guess you want universal health care and the public to pay for peoples' college.

Fuck the "public good."

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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:16:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lawless_Flogic:

Generally speaking, there are advantages to public goods being provided by the State, as it prevents some of the perverse incentives of a privately provided public good (charging a fee for use of a streetlight, for example).

Again, public education does not preclude private education.
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Originally Posted By Lawless_Flogic:
Originally Posted By FuriousYachtsman:
Education != public school, right?

Generally speaking, there are advantages to public goods being provided by the State, as it prevents some of the perverse incentives of a privately provided public good (charging a fee for use of a streetlight, for example).

Again, public education does not preclude private education.


It may not 'preclude' private education but it burdens those of us who see no benefit from public education. Don't try to argue that public education is in any way worthwhile.


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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:21:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Knightzone:
Yes, education is a public good because it is nonrival in consumption and nonexcludable.

It is the responsibility of the government to provide that service, just like national defense. Sure, there are private schools, but they cater to a much smaller and niche market.
View Quote


If the state were not involved in education by way of threat of violence through compulsory taxation and education were left to families & communities, then private education wouldn't be such a 'niche market.' In fact, introducing a market approach w/ competition would benefit everyone much more.


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Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:22:31 PM EDT
Education is not socialization, which is what public education has become.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:24:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 9:25:52 PM EDT by Thuban]
Of course it’s a public good…

Let’s back up a bit.

When someone says they have a “right” to healthcare or a “right” to an education what they are really saying is that society owes them healthcare and an education as a debt. This is what is meant by “entitlements,” they are things you are owed by society.

(There are some entitlements which are earned, such as a military pension and there are some which are unearned such as food stamps. This should be obvious but I feel the need to state it as background information.)

And when someone speaks of a “Public Good” they mean things which are beneficial to society as a whole. Roads are a good example but so is a publically funded education. You can throw in things like police, fire departments, parks, wildlife preserves, publically funded medical clinics, welfare programs, etc.

It’s a confusion over the difference between the two that causes a problem.

An entitlement is a debt, it’s owed no matter what our ability to pay is. But a public good is optional even if it is highly desirable.

When it’s your family and you are budgeting money you may believe that a vacation is a “family good” but you might not have the spare money for one. And if you do then you need to maximize the benefit you get from your money. You don't owe your family that trip to Disney World. And society doesn't owe people an education.

So education is a public good, it’s not a right because society doesn’t owe it to you as a debt. But it is beneficial to society in general if everyone is reasonably well educated. When you accept that you can then realize that there are limits to how much we can afford to spend on this particular good and that we need to make sure the money is spent efficiently.

Same things for food stamps, not a right, a public good. Society benefits if the poorest among us can access sufficient food. But there is only so much we can spend on the program. And we need to direct that money to those that really need it, not just those who are too lazy to work.

It should be obvious why the difference between public goods and rights has cost us so much.


Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:38:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By peekay:
I think that an intelligent and informed electorate is a good electorate. However, I don't feel that education should be tax payer funded.
View Quote



Unfortunately the public education system has become a publicly funded baby sitting/feel-good indoctrination camp.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:38:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By C6H12O6:


If the state were not involved in education by way of threat of violence through compulsory taxation and education were left to families & communities, then private education wouldn't be such a 'niche market.' In fact, introducing a market approach w/ competition would benefit everyone much more.


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Originally Posted By C6H12O6:
Originally Posted By Knightzone:
Yes, education is a public good because it is nonrival in consumption and nonexcludable.

It is the responsibility of the government to provide that service, just like national defense. Sure, there are private schools, but they cater to a much smaller and niche market.


If the state were not involved in education by way of threat of violence through compulsory taxation and education were left to families & communities, then private education wouldn't be such a 'niche market.' In fact, introducing a market approach w/ competition would benefit everyone much more.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

because you just eliminated public education.

The problem with eliminating public goods is that no one person values them enough. Collectively, we can all pitch in and provide. But no one person values it the same as another. How much do you value national defense money wise? How much does a lib? 20,000 libs? Can you cough up the difference so we are all protected because a public good is nonexcludable? Public goods provide a service or product that everybody needs but yet no one values enough.

BTW, since public education is nonrival in consumption, you just footed the bill of education into the parent's hands, a much smaller group of people. It would get expensive really, really quick. As a matter of fact, what you described is college/universities. Hows the cost of college these days? Oh right. Not good because colleges are a business, and all they want to do is MAXIMIZE PROFIT. They are getting away with it because people pay for it, also because there isn't enough sellers in the market to drive the equilibrium price down enough where a competitive market works. But college isn't a public good and never should be. Society needs trash pickers.

Public goods cannot create competitive markets. This isn't like smartphones where each seller is selling the same basic good and one lower smartphone price drives the market price down, pushing pressure on the other sellers to drive their prices lower. There isn't enough schools. If you want your kid to receive a higher education, then there is private school which is solely for you.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:41:45 PM EDT
Not in its current form - schools are indoctrination centers.

Take away the public school system & let the parents use the tax money they are saving to educate their children themselves (or hire a tutor, or send them to private school, etc).
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:42:50 PM EDT
Today's public education is daycare with a heavy dose of liberal politically correct indoctrination.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:49:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GlutealCleft:
Everyone benefits from a more educated society. EVERYONE.

There are awfully few services that I think the government should be providing, but education is definitely one of them.

In fact, my version of "welfare" would be "We won't give you money, but we'll help you find a job." And in some circumstances, it would extend to "And as long as you are working, and as long as you are getting good grades, we'll even provide schooling so you can get a BETTER-PAYING job." I won't fish for you, but I'll let you fish, and even teach you how to fish better.

If that makes me FSA, socialist, rent-seeker, whatever, so be it. But that's the one area where government spending can actually make a country better, richer, more peaceful, etc., etc..
View Quote


You said it.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 10:24:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By XJ:
Modern students are indoctrinated, not educated.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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When kids prayed and read the bible in public schools, was that indoctrination?

Because that's what they used to do back when America wasn't a shithole.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 10:35:58 PM EDT
You talking basic education or PhD in Sanskrit?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 10:45:31 PM EDT
Provide taxpayer-funded public education, without prejudice to private education. That includes higher education.

Education is a social good, like roads, bridges, post offices, and other infrastructure.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 10:48:26 PM EDT
In theory I think widely available education is a good thing. In practice I think it's a broken system. Just look at all the illiterate fucks that post here with zero fucks given that they cannot communicate beyond a roughly third grade level.
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