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Posted: 2/16/2013 1:20:11 PM EDT
Is there a mandatory minimum amount of training that have to do no matter the cost?
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:21:08 PM EDT
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:29:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


win
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:30:25 PM EDT
You think the LA/NYPD trains?
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:31:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Wrong. Cost is very much a concern in ever shrinking budgets.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:32:41 PM EDT
Guess they can supply their own ammo for training like the rest of us.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:33:12 PM EDT
CHP gets one box, 50 rds, of .40 every month to train with.

Not sure about other CA PDs.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:34:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steve_in_PA:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Wrong. Cost is very much a concern in ever shrinking budgets.


Ask the LAPD if they factor costs or lawsuits into the training each officer is required.



Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:35:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Wrong.... We are cut way back.

So I buy my own to train with. Along with most of the gear I use daily.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:37:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:39:13 PM EDT
Our local PD put a temporary halt on firearms training due to lack of funds for ammo last month. I donated a few cases of .40S&W to help out and the local SO has shared some, but it wasn't enough to make much of a difference.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:39:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

Perfect for GD.

High on emotion, low on information.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:40:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


You have no clue about reality. We used to shoot every month. We haven't shot in about 8 now
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:41:15 PM EDT
Costs go up and budgets go down.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:41:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DRich:
Our local PD put a temporary halt on firearms training due to lack of funds for ammo last month. I donated a few cases of .40S&W to help out and the local SO has shared some, but it wasn't enough to make much of a difference.


Bravo...... Very cool of you.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:42:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

Perfect for GD.

High on emotion, low on information.


With a thick coating of Police Bashing all over it....

Ya gotta wonder where all the hate comes from.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:48:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:
Is there a mandatory minimum amount of training that have to do no matter the cost?


Yes.

At least the places I'm familiar with will still do the training, they may just do less shooting. There will be things like policy reviews, scenario discussions; where it's available, ISMT-simulator type training, and anything else that uses existing facilities and instructors' skills but that doesn't burn money.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:56:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By Danj:
Is there a mandatory minimum amount of training that have to do no matter the cost?


Yes.

At least the places I'm familiar with will still do the training, they may just do less shooting. There will be things like policy reviews, scenario discussions; where it's available, ISMT-simulator type training, and anything else that uses existing facilities and instructors' skills but that doesn't burn money.


This....

Qualifications are the same but the round count for the eight hour day is cut down (by about half what it once was).

The reduction WILL have an impact over time with the "non-gun" LEOs.

For the guys that are on special teams or enjoy extra training it won't effect them as much since they have likely been doing it on their own for years.

I must admit that I'm looking at building a .22 upper to match my patrol rifle setup like my buddy did.

Not the same but a cheap way to keep the rust knocked off.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:59:13 PM EDT
Most of the cops I know aren't shooters. They train the bare minimum.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 1:59:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

Perfect for GD.

High on emotion, low on information.


Generalize much? I had a fed LEO trying to give me boxes of 357sig....."no worries I didn't pay for it". Wonder why we get pissed.

Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:01:41 PM EDT
Absolutely. To the point that you run 10 to 1 drills constantly. And when there is money for ammo, it is not available. Agency's (somewhat dependent on size) suffer from the same issues that regular people do in getting ammo. There is no magical line to ATK you dial and ammo shows up on the brown truck a week later, you order it and wait like everyone else. You may get moved up a bit in the stack depending on how much you order and where you ordered it from, but you still wait a LONG time right now. At least in TX, there are minimum standards established by TCLEOSE for qualification round counts and frequency, but beyond that it is up to the agency.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:03:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

And it's totally incorrect.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:05:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

Perfect for GD.

High on emotion, low on information.


Generalize much? I had a fed LEO trying to give me boxes of 357sig....."no worries I didn't pay for it". Wonder why we get pissed.


You had someone try to give you ammo and you got pissed?

Perfect for GD.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:06:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

And it's totally incorrect.


I love the cop hate here. We're willing to giver every shithead service member the benefit of the doubt, but every cop is a dog killing, ammo stealing, Old newspaper delivery lady shooting JBT.

And I'm not a cop.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:09:45 PM EDT
YES. Cobb County PD in GA cut ammo allotments from 8 hrs free range time per month, unlimited ammo to 8 hrs and 50 or 100 free rounds. Forget which.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:09:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:11:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:16:53 PM EDT
Training less on the PD dime, still training though.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:17:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MONGO45:
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By 46and2:
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Best first post ever.

Perfect for GD.

High on emotion, low on information.


With a thick coating of Police Bashing all over it....

Ya gotta wonder where all the hate comes from.


Oh, I wonder.



I'm not a cop hater by any means but I'm not ignoring the direction things are going.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:20:35 PM EDT
Most of the hate is due to getting speeding tickets and other bullshit. The dog shooting and old lady shooting doesn't help.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:37:50 PM EDT
I worked for an S.O. for several years, where the Sheriff is a well known penny pincher. We qualified once yearly, and only because it is mandatory.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 2:41:58 PM EDT
Cost is very much a concern in the public sector. Probably more so at the State/local level (until recently anyway).
About 4 years ago, my fire department's training budget got slashed 50% due to budget concerns. That didn't stop them from increasing the parks & rec budget though!
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 3:04:53 PM EDT
On another note, I placed a $25k ammo order on thursday and will be lucky if I get it by the end of the year.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 3:07:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wav3form:
Most of the hate is due to getting speeding tickets and other bullshit. The dog shooting and old lady shooting doesn't help.


You are totally wrong about the speeding ticket thing from my personal observations.....most people I know, fully understand the need for civil laws such as speed limits, etc., and have no problem paying up when caught. Do they like it? no. Do they hold it against the cop and hate LEO's because of it? hell no.

The problem arises when cops have an ego the size of Texas and think they are the judge, jury, and executioner. I am not trying to make blanket statements, as there are alot of good cops out there and I respect them. But the douche bag to professional ratio is about 5:1.....I grew uip with about 5 different guys that are now cops and 4 out of 5 are absolute assholes and it is a crime in itself they were ever allowed to have any kind of position of authority over other people's rights.

I got a ticket the other day, I was going 10 over, wasn't pissed whatsoever, and expected to get a ticket. Cop was prfessional and courteous, I said yes sir, have a nice day. When I pulled away my first thought was wow, he was nice and absolutely professional. The problem is that why is this my first natural response to a cop who was doing exactly what he was supposed to do such an anomaly. Everyone just expects them to be complete dicks and is surprised when they act exactly how they should. It would be the opposite, if most cops weren't such arrogant pricks on a complete power trip. Respect is earned, you don't just get it by having a badge on and then acting however you want and demand respect no matter what. The cronyism, corruption, etc. doesn't help your cause either.

No one ever asks why people don't like lawyers, but the answer is the same for them as it is for police officers....because the majoriity are arrogant, self entitled, pricks.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 3:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sanunan:
Originally Posted By wav3form:
Most of the hate is due to getting speeding tickets and other bullshit. The dog shooting and old lady shooting doesn't help.


You are totally wrong about the speeding ticket thing from my personal observations.....most people I know, fully understand the need for civil laws such as speed limits, etc., and have no problem paying up when caught. Do they like it? no. Do they hold it against the cop and hate LEO's because of it? hell no.

The problem arises when cops have an ego the size of Texas and think they are the judge, jury, and executioner. I am not trying to make blanket statements, as there are alot of good cops out there and I respect them. But the douche bag to professional ratio is about 5:1.....I grew uip with about 5 different guys that are now cops and 4 out of 5 are absolute assholes and it is a crime in itself they were ever allowed to have any kind of position of authority over other people's rights.

I got a ticket the other day, I was going 10 over, wasn't pissed whatsoever, and expected to get a ticket. Cop was prfessional and courteous, I said yes sir, have a nice day. When I pulled away my first thought was wow, he was nice and absolutely professional. The problem is that why is this my first natural response to a cop who was doing exactly what he was supposed to do such an anomaly. Everyone just expects them to be complete dicks and is surprised when they act exactly how they should. It would be the opposite, if most cops weren't such arrogant pricks on a complete power trip. Respect is earned, you don't just get it by having a badge on and then acting however you want and demand respect no matter what. The cronyism, corruption, etc. doesn't help your cause either.

No one ever asks why people don't like lawyers, but the answer is the same for them as it is for police officers....because the majoriity are arrogant, self entitled, pricks.


I agree with most of what you said, to an extent. Surely there are many arrogant big-headed cops out there. It comes with the territory. However, I think a lot of the time the general public misinterprets assertiveness for arrogance. The cop is trained to maintain control of a situation and show authority or dominance. Now, I know that sounds real JBT-like, but the weak, timid cops can not handle the situations they are put in on a daily basis. A criminal can pick out the weak cop in a second. You can't maintain control of a confusing, hostile or escalation situation without assertiveness.

That being said, you can be assertive without being a dick head. Some cops don't understand that mentality.
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 6:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wav3form:
Most of the hate is due to getting speeding tickets and other bullshit. The dog shooting and old lady shooting doesn't help.

Learn to read. That will cut down on your speeding tickets.

The Police are not the ones making you speed. You are. Grow up.


Mighty Mo
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:43:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1-Ed:

Originally Posted By wav3form:
Most of the hate is due to getting speeding tickets and other bullshit. The dog shooting and old lady shooting doesn't help.

Learn to read. That will cut down on your speeding tickets.

The Police are not the ones making you speed. You are. Grow up.


Mighty Mo


I can read and I speed all the time. I expect to get a ticket, but haven't for ten years. I guess I'm not going fast enough.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:46:52 AM EDT
I can see a difference between attitudes on smaller departments from bigger ones but there is no rule of thumb here.

I know super arrogant cops that are 100% squared away, and social workers with badges, and guys that take advantage of their power, and ones that bend over backwards to help people, and ones that you wouldn't trust alone with your sister, and ones that would lay down their lives for a total stranger.

NO different than any other profession.... There are good mechanics and bad and cheats and solid professionals.

The difference is that most people have an opinion of how a cop should do their job..... whether they have a clue or not.

I can't tell you much about working on a car but I drive one everyday....
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:49:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.


Yes because there are no such things as budgets in local governments and the money just flows in like its Niagara Falls.


Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:49:48 AM EDT
We have a small agency. We all shoot at least once a month. The city can't afford to spend money on ammo every month so we buy our own. I even built the range at my home so we had somewhere to train. A lot of LEO are just like everyone here gun lovers and have a passion for shooting. Unfortunaly our politicians think we don't need guns and ammo. They are wrong we all need it. Contact your politicians and get the word out if not we are all going to lose this battle. Stay safe. John
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:54:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DaffyDuck:
Cost is not a concern when you spend other people's money.
ist post always,uncanny

Link Posted: 2/17/2013 6:59:37 AM EDT
We train annually. Except we have to provide our own duty and practice ammo.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:09:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2013 7:12:47 AM EDT by tri5333]
Ohio has just reduced the course round count and made it harder, my department still qualifies twice a year though, I'm sure the haters will be pissed because were wasting taxpayers money but they would certainly be more pissed if a shootout happens and they get struck with stray bullets. I'm really tired of all the police bashing here, seems every time someone post anything about LE on here it turns into this, any of you that think you want to try this job, strap on the gear, go get spit on have urine and vomit thrown at you, have to wrestle with every drunk that cant handle his booze, get called to manage peoples lives because they cant, and have to deal with human garbage on a daily basis for $36,000.00 a year COME ON were hiring, most of them couldn't pass the background or psych though and I'm sure the pay probably scares some people off to, I do the job because I truly want to help people and serve my community but this shit gets old, I can almost understand why some LEO get a bad attitude, just remember the next time you come in contact with LEO, the previous call they had may have been a bad one and you and your speeding ticket are the furthest thing on their mind but they still have to do their job whether you like it or not.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:22:42 AM EDT
I talked to a LEO here locally. He said they can shoot whenever they want. Most don't because they have to do so after their shift. They get pissed because they want to get paid to train
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:42:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Elijah1:
I talked to a LEO here locally. He said they can shoot whenever they want. Most don't because they have to do so after their shift. They get pissed because they want to get paid to train


I don't think its unreasonable to get paid to train. Almost any other job out there pays you for in-house training.

That being said, I having no problem advancing my training, over what it required, on my own time.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:48:12 AM EDT
If my department cut back on training, they'd have to actually begin surgical removal of brain matter from all of us. Since that would cost money, no, we are not "cutting back" on "training."

Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:52:42 AM EDT
The local PD here has cut back to qualifying only, no extra training unless you use your own ammo. They have massive backorders pending but have not been resupplied in months.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:52:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:
CHP gets one box, 50 rds, of .40 every month to train with.

Not sure about other CA PDs.




Every department around here, to include my own shoots one 50rd course per year.

That's it.

We have our own range and that's all we shoot.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 7:56:36 AM EDT
A couple of years ago--closer to 3 or 4 now, maybe--I was working with some local Sheriff's Deputies.

According to them, what with ammo prices going up and availability going down, their range time had gone from ~50-100rds every other month (ish) to a duty load equivalent (45rds) in the same interval. Then down to 45rds quarterly. Then 30rds (10rds/mag x 3 mags) quarterly. Last I was in touch, they'd gone from 4/year to 3/year. No idea what's happened since; last time I kept up was early 2011 at best.

So I'd say that yes, a lot of places are trimming back.

But most states also have mandatory standards of qualification, though those are pretty extremely basic.
Some agencies choose to make range training more important than some other kinds--there's a different agency around here that at least used to have range/ammo budget as close to a "sacred cow" as they could, for a public institution. But even they had to substitute some dryfire drills and the like, last I checked.

Then again, last I was really in touch with either of those places was quite a while ago, so things might have changed since.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 8:47:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2013 8:48:52 AM EDT by webman]
Around here, most cops don't shoot outside of the mandatory re-qualification every year. That being said, they are making it very difficult to shoot at our dept. range by not allotting time for practice. Also, while they don't officially limit the ammo, they make it difficult to get any more than 100 rounds. That is a lot more than many departments, but pales in comparison to the 500+ rounds I used to fire in a session.
Link Posted: 2/17/2013 8:52:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Elijah1:
I talked to a LEO here locally. He said they can shoot whenever they want. Most don't because they have to do so after their shift. They get pissed because they want to get paid to train


Ya think Burger King pays their people to learn to flip the burger or do they volunteer to come in on their day off...? Goof....
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