So what is all the fuss about?  Why are so many people angry about the government this or the government that?  They never seem to actually have been wronged by the government in the ways they allude to, but they all are hoping that they get stopped at a checkpoint, or get harassed at an airport terminal, or get pulled over for no reason, or get asked a question by a cop, or whatever.....

Lots of "fight the man" sentiment.  Just wondering if it is a predisposed condition, or if there is something underlying the surface, or maybe it's just general animosity towards any authority, or maybe just a general malcontent.

So what gives?

Non sheeple forum.

go figure

You are asking this question post-Klinton in a forum of military-style rifle enthusiasts?? [:D]

Whatdya' thinkin?

Things are really shitty right now. Go back and read the Declaration of Independence. Read the list of greviences the colonies listed for King George.

That should answer your question.

That explains it [rolleyes], "non-sheeple" are just argumentative and generally hate the government?  Despite having all their rights intact and never having had them infringed upon?  Hmmm.....interesting.  

Read them and know them fairly well -- but will re-read them on your advice.  However, the colonies had no recourse back then either, except to fight with all their means -- armed revolt.

We have the system by where these same agrieved people can change the system, or leave, or do whatever.  Again, my point is that if you dig hard on some of these malcontents you find no agrieved status, just a WISH to become agrieved so they can say, "See, we are doomed and all our rights are gone."

It's becoming quite baffling.  This is not to say there are not injustices being done, and people being wronged daily, weekly, etc.....just noticing that most of the discontent is stemming from hypothetical conjecture.

With the unabashed growth in the federal, state, local governments and the unending explosion of regulation impacting personal freedoms over the last 50 year, the general consensus by many here is that governmental entities have lost touch with the founding fathers governing principals. This has led to an apathetic response at best and a feeling of general hostility at worst toward the great big government. Many of us don't want the government to be father and mother.

Either that or we are just a bunch of scrats.

Every time I see or hear about someone being (figuratively or literally) killed, robbed, or beaten into the dirt by an government agent, agency, or organization without fear of appraisal - I wonder if I'm next.

I'm just a normal boring guy who goes to work and pays bills. Mostly below the radar of anyone or anything. So I'm positive I'm not interesting enough for anyone to be conspiring against me. It's just that I'm seeing too many guys and gals minding their own business getting taken (either killed by a no knock, property taken by imminent domain or for environmental reasons, claims of taxes not being paid, zoning laws not followed, the lists grows and grows) Not every gov employee and agency, is bad, corrupt, or just don't give a damn - just enough to make me nervous around them.

I think it's the "You're there for me to tax, my laws are for you to obey, and you are to comply and shut up attitude that pisses me off.

SHIVAN, I agree we have recourse in the polls. However, we are now a centrally governed nation of 300,000,000 people. Access to media is costly. The ability to organize and secure financial means to promote a political message has eluded even those who personally have the means to buy small countries - let alone some pissed off hayseed in BFE middle America with $200 in his checking account.

When you look at what it takes to even hang on to what you already have these days, I can certainly empathize with the colonial patriots who felt as if they had taxation with no representation. I certainly don't feel that I have any redress - even at the most local level. And I live in a small town of 8,000 people which is the seat of a county of about 40,000 people.

I think a lot of the angst comes from people's lack of understanding of our nation's history. After all, if the south had won, there would have never been any Washington DC as we know it. Your capitol would be your state's capitol.

Agreed.  Definitely have lost touch....definitely too big......I definitely out grew a babysitter years ago. {OK, not really, but I like to lie about that part.[;D]}

These arguments come from hatred that the people make out to be real infringements, ACTUALLY exercised against them, but it appears most are just hoping they happen to them.  Am I not conveying the point well enough?

It's almost like a person who has never been smacked telling everyone how much it is going to hurt when they actually get smacked.  That is the lowest analogy I can make which I think oversimplifies it.

Thanks,

Ed

Shivan, may I answer your question with a question??

Please name for me five things you do, (seriously now), that govt. does not regulate/tax......

1.  Take a leak.   (oh, wait.  They regulate toilet tank size).
2.  Walk down the street.  (hmmmm... last time I didn't have ID and the cop stopped me was not pretty.)
3.  Play on the computer (Carnivore.   Nuff said).
4.  Read  (taxed at retail end, controlled by coyright and censorship laws.  Not to mention it is my govt. that pays for the library)
5.  Gun-related hobbies    (don't need to explain that one, do I).


You're right.  The damn fed.gov is inside my life.

IT'S INSIDE MY HEAD!!!!

SHIVAN, I worked at a black college in South Carolina for three years in the '60's.  In my opinion, that experience would leave anyone leery of government authority without oversight.  I was arrested for jay walking, not charged, and still kept for three nights.  I've also been spit-on and blooded by cops in Columbia, SC for associating with blacks.   I don't drink and I never have, but I've been arrested twice for DUI.  Just because I'm not able to speak well, hold my hands steady, or look at a light at an extreme angle without having my eyes jerk, does that mean I don't have the right to travel freely?

In the other thread, I noticed that you seemed to have difficulty distancing emotional issues from the issue of rights.  That's a disability that has damaged gun rights.  Many of us have a very short fuse when it comes to the "it's for the children" attitude.  Rather than discussing the issue of whether or not random searches for the purpose of finding a drunk driver was legal, you started-off into a tangent concerning children.  That's the same type of though process that has put an end to many of the gun rights in this country.  It's also the same roadblock many of us gun owners reach when discussion gun control with others.  They get emotional about a particular shooting rather than logically looking at the issue.  I'm not trying to attack you personally.  I'm trying to help you understand the reaction you're getting from some of us.  We're not (to use your words) generally malcontent.  We're malcontent with people that use emotion to make decisions.



On that, we both agree!z

I don't know about members [i]hoping[/i] to be stopped at a checkpoint, harassed at the airport, or pulled over for no reason, but the griping about the government is certainly there.

Remember, this country was founded on the belief that government is a [i]necessary [b]evil[/b][/i], and not to be trusted.  As opposed to liberals and most European citizens (but I repeat myself) we don't believe that government is an inherently benevolent force.  Most of us have studied the history of this nation, and the founding of our government, and understand that the government was set up with the [i]intent[/i] of making accrual of power extremely difficult.  And most of us are quite aware that 226 years of chipping away at the protections has resulted in accrual of that power anyway.

The actions of our government both passively by taxation and regulation, and actively through direct infringement of the rights of innocent citizens has angered many of us.  The behavior of the BATF in the last two decades has been the [i]most[/i] egregious, not the only thing we complain about.  

We are excessively taxed and burdensomely regulated.  Our "civil servants" have the power to ruin (or even take) our lives, but risk almost no censure or penalty for abuse of their powers unless they act in flagrant violation of what even "the sheeple" will stand.  In short, in direct opposition to the Founders hope of constructing a government "of the people, by the people, for the people,"  we have achieved a government of essentially "us versus them."

Those of us paying attention are rightfully pissed.

He's just a troll.

What do you mean "just"???


"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom...  Uncle Sam has no conscience. They don't know what morals are. They don't try and eliminate an evil because it's evil, or because it's illegal, or because it's immoral; they eliminate it only when it threatens their existence....  Power never takes a back step - only in the face of more power."
[i]from[/i] Malcolm X Speaks, 1965

Have a Happy New Years SHIVAN!

[flame]I'm sorry.  Did I ask a question outside your range of comprehension, that you can't elaborate on further without making your head hurt? Or without making yourself sound silly? So you brand me a troll?

What's even funnier -- I STILL HAVE YOUR FUCKING ATTENTION!!!!  [owned][flame]

For those with actual thoughts....

With the limited experience I have had with interactions in the LE world, gun world and such things have gone fairly easily.  Which is why I tried to segregate the emotional thread responses in to a real, "Tell me why type thread."

It seemed that the fundamentals that our group has are getting intertwined inside arguments that make them seem abstract.  

Thanks for helping me along to understand what is really going on in the rest of the country since I doubt the Metro DC area is indicative of the rest of the country.

Ed

 

[b][url=http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman102.html]Eternal Vigilance and The Duty to Dissent[/url][/b]

It's really too bad they killed Malcolm when they did, I think he was really starting to get it.....

Duncan:

Only [b]one[/b] comes to mind:

1) Think.

Otherwise, you have me at ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........[;)]

Are there 5?  Are there 2?

Elaborate....

As I said above, I wanted pure "points", outside the framework of someone deciding the topic to argue with the ideals applied.

Feel free to use examples, but let's hope they {the examples} don't overtake the discussion.

Thanks

Never having them infringed upon? You are aware that people believed by the police to be guilty of certain drug offenses can have property confiscated without even being charged, much less convicted of a crime, aren't you? Are you completely comfortable with random checkpoints on public roads? Does the "assault" weapon ban as written actually make any sense to you? You are aware of many municipal goverment entities that forbid their residents from owning handguns. aren't you? You are aware that, as stated in another response, the goverment dictates how much water my toilet uses, right?
I imagine that you aren't familiar with title 16 social security disability, and just how many kids with "oppositional defiant disorder"  ( a penchant for not doing what they're told) are receiving part of your paycheck each month. It is literally in the hundreds of thousands of kids, just for that diagnosis. Many more are receiving for such things as attention deficit disorder, or a bad lisp. In the state of Wisconsin alone, over 1.2 BILLION dollars are paid out for such cases each year. You do notice the money taken from your check each payday for social security, right? You're not planning on that for retirement, are you?

As far as membership on this board goes, I'm pretty pro-goverment. But I'm also aware of many failings. Why are you blind to them? You really believe your rights aren't infringed upon? Come carry your legally owned, holstered handgun in plain sight around the Capitol square in Madison. If you want to check our local laws, you'll find that it's legal for you to do so. You can then discuss your rights with one of our officers.

Easy killer..... [;)]

I was addressing particular people I have in mind that I have seen with no other complaint than just generally not feeling good about the government, but that potrait those "feelings" as hard evidence that it is all screwed up.

I see you have fundamental issues with the Wisconsin gov't.  Just wondering what are you doing to change those issues, well besides yelling at me on a forum board?

I, for one, am still forming my opinions.  Which I beleive will be a lifetime chore, not to be done as hastily as people would have me believe.  Just as sure as shit, if I decide to be support a cause and become a "superman right-wing radical Constitutionialist" I will have someone else saying how this other thing is right or whatever.

Just wondering how many of the people got to where they are in their anti-Gov't beliefs, when so many of the "experiences" are second hand, read about, or whatever.

Thanks,

Ed

DC metro?? Jeesh, I had no idea. For the record Ed, you and I have had our run-ins, but I think you're serious about wanting to understand where some of us are coming from. For starters, RKBA/2nd Amendment is only a SMALL fraction of many of our gripes. Many of us are from the rural west, and have to fight all kinds of rules/regulations made up by some fat bureaucrat who's never even seen a sundown without smog, but is listening to some environmental wacko in a three piece suit.
For a good insight into our segment of the gun culture, may I suggest you get a copy of "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. The book is factual, as well as entertaining, and has some technical stuff in there that's fascinating. The political aspects of it may help bring you up to speed on where many of us are coming from. Remember this, for some of us, the 2nd amendement is DEFINATELY NOT what all  this is about...

How about this

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=161971&page=1[/url]

The government ass rapes us all every day and no one stops to ask why or say enough is enough.  There are too many small minded people who believe the govt is our friend when we are in actuality in the final stages of conversion to Socialism against the will of the people.  I think if most people could vote whether or not to get ass raped they would choose not to.  Problem is the govt does not allow things like this to be taught in public schools so we have a ton of peons who don't know they are being robbed of half their income by the organized crime syndicate know as the government.

Northern Virginia has been compared to the Berkeley of the East, only dumber. [;)]  I am 15 minutes to the Pentagon.

I will see what the book has to say.

Ed

DC Metro area?  Well that explains a lot.  You live in an area populated by people who (in the majority) believe that government is a wonderful thing - especially considering that the majority of them are dependent upon it for their livelihoods either directly through a government issued paycheck, or indirectly by working for a company being payed from government coffers.  

I second the recommendation that you read [i][u]Unintended Consequences[/i][/u] - at least the first two-thirds.  And bear in mind that each and every offense against the public detailed in the book is factual (though possibly embellished by the author.)

The rest of us who live in "flyover country" have a considerably more jaded perspective.

of course you still have my attention. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Whats your handle at DU troll...skinner?

you fit the bill for a democrap......emotional...condecending...........personal attacks.....troll

Congratulations. You now have the exact same unfettered freedom that so many millions in the history of the world have always enjoyed.

Freedom of thought, so long as it stays in your head.

You are now in good company.

Antebellum black slaves.

Inhabitants of the GULAG.

Czarist serfs.

Israelite slaves under Pharoah.

Yep. Total freedom to think.

As long as you don't speak or act upon your thoughts.

Think about [i]that[/i], while you still are allowed to.

Now - any further questions as to why so many people here have strong reservations about strong, overbearing, omnipresent government?

Listen, since you must either be 15 or have the intellect thereof:

I am a Platinum member which means I paid $100 bucks to be a member here, most DU'ers wouldn't have that kind of commitment.  Although that would be an extremely hard ploy to disprove.  I also have over 1200 posts in the little less than 6 months I've been on the board.  I have bought things from members here and I go to shoots with many of the other members in VA.  I also am the orgainzer of a brass purchase for the 458 SOCOM upper, of which I was a contributing member to the success of the 458 SOCOM upper group buy.

Trolling is coming on a thread and being a general nuisance......anyone know who that sounds like?  Hey kiddo in case you didn't notice I was talking about [b]you[/b].  Now run along and go ask mom if you can watch the Simpsons.  K?  Good.

Buh-bye.....

KB-

It also means we have a wealth of lawyers, and the police department in Fairfax County is one of the best educated in the country.  This goes a long way towards ensuring less stupid things happen.

It is kind of like how people who live in Dearborn think the auto unions are the best thing ever.  Anyway, I digress.

I will be checking in to the book ASAP.

Let it be known there are many things I don't agree with in the government.  Some of them are knee jerk reactions, like why it is going to cost me $8000 to get an M16.  Ugh....

Some of them are fundamental things that I know why I am reacting:  I never agreed with the ban on Catcher and the Rye in the rest of the bible belt.  We had no such restriction and thus were able to read it.  It was inane really, but littered with meaning that sparked some pretty good debates even as high school kids.  That was some time ago and things have changed still...

But the problem is I find myself at odds with many of the radical views of the Right.  However, I agree with the fundamental stuff.  This is why I wanted to specifically open a thread devoid of a framework that limited the thoughts to one thing to rail against.  It limits the thoughts that come out.

Thanks,

Ed

thats a big expense to be a troll isn't it?

Let's see...how far should I go back (how does the '30s sound?):

Roosevelt's court packing scheme unleashed a new wave of government nanny programs and judicial activism that haunt us to this day;

The Social Security debacle (don't need to elaborate more there at all);

LBJ's "Great Society";

Vietnam (agree with the concept, abhor the execution by our half-assed leaders);

Watergate (the true beginning of modern distrust of government);

Jimmy Carter (nuff said?--no, how about Tehran?  still not enough, how about double digit inflation?--that's enough);

Iran/Contra (lies and more lies);

GCA '86, '89--unconstitutional restrictions on our guaranteed rights rammed through by traitorous democrats and a few republicans);

Read my lips: No new taxes! (Bush 1 f@cked us; should have finished off Saddam but nooooo, politics were more important);

National Health Care (Hillary's--not even an elected official mind you--failed scheme to force one of the Nation's largest industries into a Socialist regulatory scheme;

'94 Crime Bill--night basketball and the assault weapons ban--'nuff said;

Ruby Ridge--NO GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WAS EVER PROSECUTED yet the government settled with Randy Weaver for several million dollars for the wrongful death of Vicky and Sammy;

Waco Texas--see above;

Knowledge of OBL and Al Qaeda--USS Cole bombing, Khobar (sp?) towers, Somalia--no decisive action to nip the burgeoning terror threat in the bud (fit too nicely into Clinton's plan to increasingly rely on U.N. authority for action rather than unilateral U.S. for its own protection and continued existence; plan to make U.N. the de facto seat of world government and power);

Blowjobs in the White House from young interns(while bombing Bosnia to draw attention away--impeachment, post office scandal, travel scandal, Whitewater scandal, Paula Jones, etc., etc.);

Lies from the Forest Service (and other agencies) about endangered species in order to further an agenda;

Going to bed with China, an avowed enemy of the U.S. for the mere benefit of cheap trinkets--and giving up secrets of National Security to further that end;

Inept service from the CIA, FBI et. al. re terrorism--they had the intel but organizational ineptitude failed to prevent the Trade Towers from falling;

The continued abrogation of our civil rights in the name of fighting "terrorism" (Patriot Act, TIA, TIPS)--remember, the 19 highjackers were illegal aliens, mostly on EXPIRED visas--while illegal immigration remains unchecked;

Failure to timely arm pilots--clear that had the pilots had guns, it is HIGHLY likely those attacks would have been thwarted;

Federalization of airport screeners lead to the confiscation of 2" toy plastic guns from G.I. Joe dolls because "guns" are prohibited on planes;

Should I go on?  DO I FUCKING NEED TO KEEP GOING?  

Go ahead and write me off as some wack job, tin-foil hat type.  

If you think peace is what's ahead, go buy some dope to smoke.

I'll be oiling my bolt and loading magazines.  

You've GOT to be kidding!  The Congress (both houses) is packed with lawyers, and the only thing they think about is writing ever more legislation.  "When the only tool you have is a hammer...."

Walk into a law library and look at the ranked tomes, stacked to the ceiling as far as the eye can see, and tell me that "wealth of lawyers" (an oxymoron in your meaning) is a [i]good[/i] thing.  Educated police?  Yes, that [b]is[/b] a good thing, and comparatively rare.  Do you want to tell me how wonderful the police department in D.C. proper is?  Or Prince Georges county?Good comparison.As do I.  That doesn't mean they're wrong about everything, as you admit.You're welcome.

And Rayven, just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him a troll.  

If everybody agreed with you, the rest of us would be redundant.

Didn't mean it that way.  Meant that the cops, being fairly well educated for cops, knew that there were a lot of lawyers around and that they don't dare fuck up.  When they do, we have a wealth of them around to hammer their ass to the wall.  They also don't want to risk actually harassing a lawyer and REALLY get in it deep.  No other meaning.....

[size=1]KB-I'd leave ravyn alone he might follow you around too.[rolleyes][/size=1]  

it has nothing to do with not agreeing Kbaker.

I'm just a bigot when it comes to liberals. [:)]

Hey rayvn.....when are you going to say something worth the bandwidth you are using?  I hope the letters you take so much pride in writing to the gov't have a little more thought than your posts here.  Do you have a 4 year old niece write them for you?  I'm sure she can develop a good strong argument for you.  Or do you just go with the material you've used so far?  If you do just use your stuff - might I suggest you consult that niece?

When you are as far to the radical right as you sound to be, everybody comes off as a liberal huh? [whacko]  

Fine.  Only it appears that anyone to the left of Attilla the Hun is a "liberal" to you.

Insulting people might be fun, but it doesn't accomplish anything.

KB-

I started it with him in another thread.  He's fine, really not enough wits to worry me.  You and I made the same point almost simualtaneously about the "so far right" thing.....[:D]

[b][i]I  [/b][/i] meant that those same cops, using idiot laws written by our legislatures both Federal and State can - legally or at least without fear of retribution - trample all over your rights.  Asset forfeiture, unreasonable search redefined, killing of innocents...  

Someone once said that the best reason to become a lawyer was to keep from being fvcked by the system.  That's a sad commentary, but I suspect it's true.

What say you lawyers out there?

Ed, here is a link, and a couple of snippets from the web site of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They have an analysis of the USA "Patriot" Act. A couple of excerpts;




There's more;



Note, this requires no evidence to be submitted, and no oversight. All they need to do is say it's a "significant" purpose. They can tap virtually any one.




[url]http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html[/url]

I would ask what the gubmint has done that gives anyone ANY reason to trust them ??

Shivan, I am 22 and like you still trying to figure out exactly where I stand. I think the government is jacked all to hell. That is one thing I cannot deny. People don't mistrust something as much as you see around here in such large numbers unless their is a reason. I like to look at the founding fathers words when I get confused..When in doubt, err on the side of liberty. I forget who said it exactly, but it is a good standard. I think that liberty as envisioned by those who made it possible was something requiring much effort to maintain. Vigilance, sacrifice, etc. NOT JUST ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE! Lot's of people seem to think that liberty is only defended 10,000 miles away with M16's and blood, but I feel that it is also defended by those of us going about our day to day lives. We defend it by not getting greedy and saying "who cares who comes here as long as our stuff is cheap." etc. We defend it by saying "I am willing to pay more, work harder and worry more...in return I expect to be able to go about my life as I see fit."  The reason our country seems to be going south is not really our politicians fault. They really are representing us. The problem is our nation as a whole really does demand these breaches of liberty. They want safety. They want gauranteed health care even if it is worthless. They want cheap goods, even if it means sending labor overseas. We are bringing it on our own heads. If the people didn't want it, they wouldn't be voing for it. If the people are not voting, and not making themselves heard, then they don't care and have no right to complain. Complacency WILL be the downfall of our nation. It has certainly been the downfall of many other great nations of history. We as a nation destroy ourselves from within. I have no solutions, except to try and help people learn to value freedom, and to except the personal responsibilty that comes with it.

Sorry if this made no sense, I am not too good at making my point sometimes.

Read "Unintended Consequences"  by John Ross.

It's a fiction, but you can check the facts.  I did, all the way through the book.  Very thought provoking.

Shivan, you were asking for examples of board members who had experienced violations of their rights directly. I also noticed that you mentioned making several transactions as an AR member. Can I get your opinion on this thread?
[url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=160074[/url]

Because the government does so many things wrong.


Yes, it is predisposed. It is in every true American's blood to be jealous of one's liberties and to distrust government. It is a animosity towards authority, especially when that authority has the power to , or is, infringing on one's rights.


Rights intact? Bullsh*t. Can I convert my AR to an M16 and not get a**raped by the BATF? Can I build a house without a permit? Can I buy a car without going through the state? Can I buy alcohol and give it to an 18yo? Can I do anything without the State regulating or taxing it in someway? No, absolutely not. The government is now in the business of infringing on our rights, ALL of them. The only JUST government is one who protects our rights, and our government do not do that.


And some would say neither to we.


No we don't. The system is broken. It has failed. Injustices are committed way more than you know. You don't hear about it because very few people care. Most take the injustice and shut up about it. I suggest you read "Lost Rights" by James Bovard. In fact, read all of his books. Also read "Send in the Waco Killers" and "The Ballad of Carl Drega" by Vin Supranowitz(sp?). They will open your eyes.


We may have not be directly aggrieved, but we have heard MANY, MANY stories of those who have. And we have seen the framework of oppression being laid down. One thing to remember about the American Revolution: the oppression was not really that bad(not compared to today, anyway). They didn't revolt because of the oppression, but because the signs, the precedent, and the framework for oppression were there.

As James Madison so aptly stated:

"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entagled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it."


Like what(in both cases)?



BINGO!!! The government should never get trusted unless they show that they can be trusted- and only on that specific thing only. America was BORN on the distrust of government, and we have a long history of it. We need to be eternally vigilant, as that is the price of liberty, as Washington said. Patrick Henry said to jealously guard the jewels of our rights. The only thing capable of taking them is government.

The history of not only other governments, but our own says that governments are not to be trusted. They lie and mislead the public all the time. Only a fool would trust government, and the biggest fools are socialists.

You would be stupid and naive not to distrust the government.

libertyof76:

Rather than using my points to make a point to me where my thinking may be flawed, make the points in general.  What you believe in spite of the argument you want to latch on to.  There is no reason to proclaim I need my eyes opened or whatever your major beef is with the way I wrote the original question.  This is exactly why I tried to bring this discussion outside the framework of a predetermined argument.  

Can you do all those things you listed?  Sure you can.  Do they have consequences in today's times, they sure do.  Are you leading the charge?  Are you forming the group that will write the next Declaration of Independance?  This is one of the things I do not agree with from the radical right:  The wanting to overthrow the government on some pretext that it is "broken".  I think there are a lot of things that need to be addressed, sure.  Broken and needing to be completely overhauled?  No.

Thanks,

Ed

Grounded that sentiment in hard facts and beliefs huh Matt? [;D]

Do you inspect every plane before you fly on it?  Nope, but the FAA has guidelines that you take for granted though, huh?  You are trusting them (the guidelines from the FAA) with your life.  There are several areas you can apply this to.  This is just one I think of on a regular basis.

That said, I have no blind trust for anyone or anything.  I was raised to ask questions, and find out answers for myself.  My interaction with Duncan (liberty86) a few weeks back opened a curiousity about the other sides of his argument.  So here I am asking questions.  There are plenty of things I know about the gov't that I dislike, mistrust, hate, despise, want to change, would try to change, whatever, but I don't think I have the complete picture -- so forgive my inquisitiveness.  

Ed  

Guys, lighten up. Shivan seems to be honestly looking for some answers here, lets just try to give him our thoughts in a non-confrontational/judgemental way if we can ok?  



Well, it IS "broken".

Ed, I have never seen, nor heard anyone in the "Patriot" community advocate the "overthrow" of the govt. Rather, I think the word "Restore" is a better one. No one I know of wish's to trash the Constitution. They only want to see it back in it's Constitutional chains where it belongs. As the govt. becomes more oppressive, it becomes more evident that this will not happen through the political process.