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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:39:52 AM EST
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:40:52 AM EST
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:42:00 AM EST
A person who does not own a gun is only a tiny fraction less of a gun owner than a person with several guns, because there are thousands of types of guns.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:42:32 AM EST
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:47:06 AM EST
Pie is proof that god exists.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:47:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"




This from a man who couldn't even tie his own shoes!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:53:02 AM EST
For physics, I'll go to Einstein.

For spiritual matters, I look to Jesus as The Authority.

'Nuff said.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:55:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"




That's a great quote...Sums up my feelings quite well.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:56:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World asI See It"




'Cause, after all, it's all about Einstein's conception of God, not God's conception of anything.

You say you can't comprehend God? That's a good starting point. Now to begin:

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. (Or, in my paraphrase of the same, "You won't learn anything worth anything about anything until you learn that God is not to be trifled with.")
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 7:59:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:01:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



This is silly. It doesn't even start to account for proportional numbers. Nor will you be able to convince these these guys that the other gods were legit. They were not after all, none are...

Do not attempt to use this one on anyone who is able to think on their own.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:03:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



This is silly. It doesn't even start to account for proportional numbers. Nor will you be able to convince these these guys that the other gods were legit. They were not after all, none are...

Do not attempt to use this one on anyone who is able to think on their own.



Once again, I find myself agreeing with you, DP. A sure sign that the apocalypse is at hand!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:03:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



This sounds like the same kind of lame argument as "Everyone is gay to some degree, so just admit it, you're somewhat gay"* It's an attempt to get people to think that we're all closer to each other (despite our differences) than we think. Do I believe it? No. In fact it's a silly argument IMHO.

*NO I didn't hear that from my Cub Scout leader.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:05:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



This is silly. It doesn't even start to account for proportional numbers. Nor will you be able to convince these these guys that the other gods were legit. They were not after all, none are...

Do not attempt to use this one on anyone who is able to think on their own.



Once again, I find myself agreeing with you, DP. A sure sign that the apocalypse is at hand!



Re-read, and your world will be correct again...
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:09:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



This is silly. It doesn't even start to account for proportional numbers. Nor will you be able to convince these these guys that the other gods were legit. They were not after all, none are...

Do not attempt to use this one on anyone who is able to think on their own.



Once again, I find myself agreeing with you, DP. A sure sign that the apocalypse is at hand!



Re-read, and your world will be correct again...



OK, except for that line.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:10:05 AM EST

Difference between Christians and Atheists


Simple enough:
True Christians (since we've already had that argument ) are going to heaven, Atheists are not.

Period. End of story.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:17:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.



+5
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:18:55 AM EST

Difference between Christians and Atheists


Christians can get by in the afterlife wearing nuthin but a ROBE,

Atheists will be needing an ASBESTOS SUIT!

Mike
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:28:06 AM EST
I have never been able to comprehend the primal certainty that one god is the correct one, and that everyone else's gods are false. Moslems, Incas, Iroquios, Huns, Celts, Tatars, etc. ad nauseum are/were as zealous as any fundamentalist Christian. If they were all dead wrong, how can any religion be embraced with no doubts?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:38:00 AM EST
Supposedly there was an expression in Medieval Europe that still seems applicable to me: "There is only one real commandment: 'Send thy money.'"
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:42:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.


Why? The point is that Christianity is just one of thousands of religions that have existed since pre-history, with no guarantee that it has any more validity than anything that went before or since.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:46:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.


Why? The point is that Christianity is just one of thousands of religions that have existed since pre-history, with no guarantee that it has any more validity than anything that went before or since.



If you say so....

In answer to your question: Christians are saved while atheists aren't. Simple, really....
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:47:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"



+1
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:48:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.


Why? The point is that Christianity is just one of thousands of religions that have existed since pre-history, with no guarantee that it has any more validity than anything that went before or since.



Yup. No guarantee at all.

Move along folks, nothing to see or think about here!

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:49:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 8:50:36 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"



+1



I wonder what ol' Albie would say if we could bring him back for a few moments?

You can choose to believe there is nothing bigger than this universe or bigger than ourselves. But doing so is no different than choosing to believe in the tooth fairy. A person can shut their eyes and pretend as hard as they want, but that won't make God go away.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:49:55 AM EST
Obviously there is a difference, and a large one, from a philosophical perspective. Bringing it down to a mathmatical one ignores the fact that the two are essentially polar opposites.

Bad argument.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:51:17 AM EST
Hmmmmmmmmmm.....why bother
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:53:43 AM EST
In fact, the mathemetics invariably point toward the existence of a creator.

Now, if you want to call that creator a god or a little green man from Mars, knock yourself out.

I choose to call Him "Lord"!

...and someday He will call me by my name, my TRUE name, and oh, what a day that will be!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:59:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

I wonder what ol' Albie would say if we could bring him back for a few moments?




Probably...Oi vey?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:12:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
You can choose to believe there is nothing bigger than this universe or bigger than ourselves. But doing so is no different than choosing to believe in the tooth fairy.



No, actually what's equal to believing in the tooth fairy is clutching to a belief in a diety, developed over 2000 years ago, by people who knew no better. ...with no evidence what so ever in its existance, other than a 2000 year old book, and what some attempt to pass off as proof..."faith". Try using "faith" as proof in ANY other discussion....count backwards from 10 and you'll get laughed out of the room before you get to "5".
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:20:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4:
Try using "faith" as proof in ANY other discussion....count backwards from 10 and you'll get laughed out of the room before you get to "5".



Seems to have worked for Darwinists for over 100 years now, despite the data heaping higher and highr that they are WRONG.

Also, asking that a discussion about the nature of God not utilize the word "faith" is like asking that the word "rifle" not be utilized when discussing hunting....
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:25:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 9:26:07 AM EST by tcsd1236]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
If you say so....

In answer to your question: Christians are saved while atheists aren't. Simple, really....


Thats a specific religious- based belief based on faith and has no merit for those outside the pool of believers in that particular religion.
Practitioners of every other faith are equally as convinced that they are the real religious faith and its everyone else who are the non-believers.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:30:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 9:31:39 AM EST by drache]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
If you say so....

In answer to your question: Christians are saved while atheists aren't. Simple, really....


Thats a specific religious- based belief based on faith and has no merit for those outside the pool of believers in that particular religion.
Practitioners of every other faith are equally as convinced that they are the real religious faith and its everyone else who are the non-believers.



While you are correct on the last part of your comment.
Faith IS the difference between Christians and Atheists.
Which as I recall is what the topic was about.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:32:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
I have never been able to comprehend the primal certainty that one god is the correct one, and that everyone else's gods are false. Moslems, Incas, Iroquios, Huns, Celts, Tatars, etc. ad nauseum are/were as zealous as any fundamentalist Christian. If they were all dead wrong, how can any religion be embraced with no doubts?



Well, that's easy.

I am a Christian because I've met Jesus. Not physically, but faced with my sin and His great Mercy, I trusted Him for my salvation.

Just as He promised, He came into my heart and nothing has been the same since.

As the old song says,

"And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own;
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known."

I know Jesus has saved me because I feel Him in my heart and my life. He is the most real Person in the world to me.

He walks with me and holds my hand, and will some day take me to Glory for eternity.

Oh, how I love Him!
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:33:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 9:36:52 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
You can choose to believe there is nothing bigger than this universe or bigger than ourselves. But doing so is no different than choosing to believe in the tooth fairy.



No, actually what's equal to believing in the tooth fairy is clutching to a belief in a diety, developed over 2000 years ago, by people who knew no better. ...with no evidence what so ever in its existance, other than a 2000 year old book, and what some attempt to pass off as proof..."faith". Try using "faith" as proof in ANY other discussion....count backwards from 10 and you'll get laughed out of the room before you get to "5".



"People who knew no better" hardly seems to describe eye witnesses of Christ, His crucifixion and His resurrection.

Jesus is as verifiable as just about any other aincient historical figure. The question is whether or not He was the son of God. Either He was, or He was psychotic.

Given that His teachings contain some of the most insightful ideas on the human condition and that His teachings form a foundation for the ideas of even our civilization, it seems unlikely that He was a psychopath, or that stories about Him were exagerated by a group of ignorant and unlearned fishermen.

Until the 3rd or 4th century, there was nothing to gain by being a Christian. Quite the opposite, as those who professed faith were usually brutally executed and tortured for it. All of the apostles save John were killed for the Gospel, and he was left on a deserted island to rot.

Those who told the story did not benefit from its telling one iota. This means that either they were telling the truth, or they were as psychotic as some believe Jesus to be.

Man exists in a universe whose boundaries he cannot even begin to fathom, and whose existence he cannot even begin to explain. Yet so many are confident about their stance on eternal things, though they live a mere 80 years or so on this tiny rock we call earth.

It never ceases to amaze me.

The founders of other faiths are now all dead. But Christ lives, for death was not strong enough to conquer Him. Where God truly is, there is power. Thus we have faith in Christ to the salvation of our souls....
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:39:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Just heard it put this way, and besides, I'm in the mood for stimulating a spirited exchange of viewpoints:

How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.



Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:43:15 AM EST
There is very little difference.

Both believe they know the true answer to a question beyond human understanding.

It takes faith to be an atheist, atheism is a religion of sorts.

Now agnostics are another matter, they have the wisdom to admit they don't know.

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:45:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By K2QB3:
There is very little difference.

Both believe they know the true answer to a question beyond human understanding.

It takes faith to be an atheist, atheism is a religion of sorts.

Now agnostics are another matter, they have the wisdom to admit they don't know.




There's nothing a man can't do when he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not....

Graham Chapman
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:53:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

I am a Christian because I've met Jesus. Not physically, but faced with my sin and His great Mercy, I trusted Him for my salvation.

Just as He promised, He came into my heart and nothing has been the same since.

I know Jesus has saved me because I feel Him in my heart and my life. He is the most real Person in the world to me.

He walks with me and holds my hand, and will some day take me to Glory for eternity.

Have you ever considered, just for a moment, for the sake of acedemic argument, that this was a placebo effect. After all, you've just answered all the typical questions man asks, as well as removing the burden of your mortality with one word: Jesus. Anyone's mind would feel relieved with such questions answered, be it with a correct or incorrect answer.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:54:03 AM EST
No. An encounter with God is many things, but not a placebo.....
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 9:58:27 AM EST
Pascal's wager only works in favor of the goddists if they pick the right god.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:04:11 AM EST
0 might as well be an infinite distance from 1. 10,000 is 10,000 times 1. But it is infinitely times greater than 0. Just like the Lord is such a distance from those He has not chosen.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:23:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:28:42 AM EST
Mankind isnt mature enough to handle organized religion.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 10:48:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 10:50:37 AM EST by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

I am a Christian because I've met Jesus. Not physically, but faced with my sin and His great Mercy, I trusted Him for my salvation.

Just as He promised, He came into my heart and nothing has been the same since.

I know Jesus has saved me because I feel Him in my heart and my life. He is the most real Person in the world to me.

He walks with me and holds my hand, and will some day take me to Glory for eternity.



Have you ever considered, just for a moment, for the sake of acedemic argument, that this was a placebo effect.



Great question, old buddy.

And the answer is: Of course I have.

But if it were a placebo effect, it times of trouble, it would fail. Jesus never does.


After all, you've just answered all the typical questions man asks, as well as removing the burden of your mortality with one word: Jesus.


What a great way of looking at it!

But it wasn't me that "just answered all the typical questions man asks, as well as removing the burden of your mortality", it was God. He took it upon Himself to answer all these questions and answer for my sins.

That is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. All other religions require man to do enough good works to save himself. Only Christianity says, "You can't save yourself. Only Jesus can save you. All your 'good works' are just 'filthy rags' in God's sight. You must trust in the Righteousness of Jesus."

If man was "inventing" a religion, he would have never made it like Christianity. In fact, that is why all others are diametrically opposed to Christianity. Man created all of them. Not Christianity. It was created by God.


Anyone's mind would feel relieved with such questions answered, be it with a correct or incorrect answer.



I would respectfully disagree with you here. Incorrect answers do not supply the inner peace found in faith in the Truth. The correct answer to all these issues is faith in Jesus. It supplies real peace because it actually, really answers these questions.

And Jesus did it all. What a Wonderful Savior.

Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:27:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2004 12:30:05 PM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

But if it were a placebo effect, it times of trouble, it would fail. Jesus never does.



It has also been proven that laughter is helpful to humanity. It has a stress relieving quality even though it is not spiritual in any manner.

As far as Jesus not failing, that's easy to say when he never makes his material presence known in this life and the faultless environment will be presented to you after your death. To think otherwise would be to indicate that 'saved' individuals have an easier time of it in this life through Jesus. Y'all are just as likely to get struck down or hampered by the normal afflictions and risks of life as the rest of us are, regardless of how much you pray for assistance in being safe.


That is what makes Christianity different from all other religions. All other religions require man to do enough good works to save himself. Only Christianity says, "You can't save yourself. Only Jesus can save you. All your 'good works' are just 'filthy rags' in God's sight. You must trust in the Righteousness of Jesus."
But is that not a 'good works' requirement unto itself? I don't know enough about the worlds religions to know if that is unique, but I'm quite sure the others also have a unique feature that could be used by the faithful as a point of differentiation.

The attraction to Christianity was that it had a low threshold to participate, in that it was not a religion of the wealthy or connected. Wouldn't it then fit that such a rule which is capable of being done by all would be an excellent motivator?


If man was "inventing" a religion, he would have never made it like Christianity. In fact, that is why all others are diametrically opposed to Christianity. Man created all of them. Not Christianity. It was created by God.



Incorrect answers do not supply the inner peace found in faith in the Truth. The correct answer to all these issues is faith in Jesus. It supplies real peace because it actually, really answers these questions.


Incorrect answers can provide the same lift as correct ones if the one they effect believes them to be true. The aincent Hawaiians probably really did think that the volcano was erupting because of a spiritual force. They had no concept of plate tectonics or the ring of fire. It was very real to them, especially to those who recently were exposed to an unusual incident. It would have been very easy to draw the conclusion that uncommon incident A caused the god of fire to make the mountain erupt.

Also, what you are saying is that ALL of the eastern religions that strive for inner peace never can truely achieve it because they are not Christian? I suspect that they would beg to differ.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:36:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By MisterFloppy:
Pie is proof that god exists.



We have a winner. No greater truth has ever been spoken.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:44:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many gods have been worshipped throughout history and pre-history? Every place and culture has had at least one, sometimes hundreds. Let's conservatively say 10,000. Mathematically speaking, then, a Christian (or Moslem, or whatever) who believes in one of them but no others differs from an Atheist by .0001 percent.




Your math-fu is weak.


That's a difference of INFINITY. 1/0 = infinity.

Christians are INFINITELY different than aetheists.

Rookies



Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:54:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
I know Jesus has saved me because I feel Him in my heart and my life.



As a famous person said, "emotions are not tools of cognition".
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:57:21 PM EST
I would love to possess the confidence and comfort of blind faith, but I just can't do it. I was raised Lutheran, but when I got old enough to have an inquisitive mind, I only got the sort of answers that sell swampland in Florida. When I began to study history, and specifically the history of Christianity, and learned how the various factions came to their respective positions, I eventually rejected the whole doctrine. I'd call myself an agnostic now, viewing organized religion as, at best, simply a fund-raising scam. Most bible-thumpers strike me as hypocrits and phoneys, or as too weak-minded to question the charletans they follow. Not all that long ago, various Christians were torturing and killing each other in the name of God over whatever goofy thing the latest cleric came up with to extort more money or accumulate more power. The pilgrims who came to the new world for religious freedom were burning each other as heretics within a generation. Right now on NPR, Apaches are praying to "mountain spirits". Can any of you true believers give me a single shred of evidence that they are wrong and doomed for eternity, or that you are right and will live forever? I'm not just playing the devil's advocate. I would truly love to have faith in an all-powerful being who would give me eternal joy. Who wouldn't? I just need the tiniest scrap of evidence to cling to for a start.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:59:24 PM EST
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