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Posted: 8/10/2005 7:32:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 7:39:14 PM EDT by motown_steve]
I support our troops and I support killing militant islamics, but I'm begining to loose faith in the mission. To me, at the moment it's begining to look like we lost nearly 2,000 American soldiers only to establish another Islamic republic which will eventually become another state sponsor of terror. Have we undone ourselves yet again by creating our next enemy (again)?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:34:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:34:28 PM EDT
No, but we did need to so we could cover up all the oil deals in Afganistan.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:36:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
I hold the soldiers blameless.



+1 the soldiers of this country do as they always, their job.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:41:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 7:42:21 PM EDT by GTLandser]
IMHO, no. I agree that if we mess up in Iraq, we are in for some more bad times (another Afghanistan). But as far as I can tell without visiting myself, we are doing enough things right that we will succeed--with success defined as a stable, democratic Iraq, independent (in about, say, 10 years) of any US support. We've got to change attitudes in that part of the world, and believe me, we are doing that. The leaders of the nations next door are positively shitting themselves. I think we could do a better job if we spent some more money on development in the region, but that will only be possible when we aren't spending so much on fighting in Iraq. Please visit strategypage.com, and you should read some news and views that you will find more encouraging. The Iranians and Iraqis won't be shouting "death to America" and burning Uncle Sam in effigy together like they're good friends, because there's a lot more to them than their religion.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:43:51 PM EDT
That whole region is not worth an American soldiers life or the $$ being spent. Secure our borders and kick those fuckers out. Cheap and effective. We are no safer than we were.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:45:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:46:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 7:49:17 PM EDT by -Absolut-]
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=373645

Like I have said before killing terrorists is just a short term solution in the war on terrorism. Spreading the seeds of democracy is the long term solution.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:48:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By double_wielder:
No, but we did need to so we could cover up all the oil deals in Afganistan.



At the pump today you have no idea how much I wish this was all about oil.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:49:26 PM EDT
Only God know's the REAL reasons (there's more than one I'm sure) we are there. Stupidity and very poor thought process of the US leadership. The Bull is in the China shop and now we got to pay for all the glass we broke.

We were INVADERS of a soveign country. No WMD's. What a royal F.U.

I pity our English friends as they too got sucked in and came to our side - THANK YOU BRITS, I'll Remember we owe you one.

The weirdest thing is this, the Democrates failed to exploit this MASSIVE misjudgement of the Republican Administration. Neither party has anything to brag about.

Support the soldiers - SURE. This ill-conceived war? I don't think so. The most sickening part (besides the unnecessary deaths of THEM and US) is that come next election, the Wicked Witch of NY will be our next leader.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:49:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GTLandser:
The Iranians and Iraqis won't be shouting "death to America" and burning Uncle Sam in effigy together like they're good friends, because there's a lot more to them than their religion.



they sure wont be allies either.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:50:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:52:15 PM EDT
The only reason we are still there is because the men of Iraq won't stand on their own two feet and take their country back from these demonic, head sawing, body mutilating murderers.

...but then again, what do you expect when you fight for another persons freedom.

You know going into it that they lack the nuts to do anything about it themselves, hell, that's why you're there.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:52:50 PM EDT
Iraq has turned into the front line in the war on terrorism.
The Islamic Militants we kill in Iraq won't be the ones carrying out attacks in the U.S.

Foreign Islamic Militants who come to Iraq to kill Americans won't be the ones carrying out attacks
in the U.S.

If we could somehow incite them all to go to Iraq, this could be a short war on terror.

U.S. Military in Iraq, ridding the world of extremist islamic militant terrorists, one day at a time.

HS1
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:53:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:01:04 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



My friends who were there said the Iraqi males are lazy as all and most of the males, even the ones in the Iraqi Army, hate the fact that we are there and cant wait for us to leave. One told me that from the way it looked to him, we will be ther forever because the Iraqis are incapable of self rule and they wave at you when you drive by but when you look in the mirror or spin the turet around, they are waving the bottom of their shoe at you. Fical , unruly barbaric people.

I have heard better things of the Iraqi people and Iraqi Army but my buddy was training them for a bit and he said even the ones who were eager to help and fight were horribly inept at warfare and tactics. He said the biggest battle of retards had to be the Iran Iraq war because you show em one thing anf they go righ ahead and ignore everything they were taught and screw it up beytond all comprehension. He said almot everytime they sent the Iraqis out, they would find them not where they were supposed to be making BS radio reports about their locations and generally fouling everything up.

This was over a year ago so hopefull things have improved. He wanted to go back but was medically withdrawn due to injuries sustained. Kinda talks real slow and seems doped up, but is 100% fine other than that. He took a pretty good head injury. A door from a booby trapped house flew into his head when the IED exploded.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:54:20 PM EDT
Yes, in a rather roundabout way. Honestly, I think the WMD story was a crock from the get go. Anything Hussein had was probably years away from being a credible threat to anyone. SH may well have violated UN decree, and none of the other 1st world pantywaists were going to do anything about it, but Iraq was fairly harmless, except to it's own citizens, and MAYBE to its neighbors.

However, many folk who would otherwise be plotting to fly planes into buildings and bomb subways are currently planting roadside bombs and shooting at soldiers (and all to often Iraqi civilians) in the sandbox. And with that in mind, it can be boiled down to attrition. We can kill far more terrorists than they ca kill of us. And so long as we manage to win the 'hearts and minds' of those living in occupied territory, the terrorists on't have the recruitment pool to draw from, and simply dry up.

I do think that this is winnable...it will just take a very long time, and a lot of sacrifice. Which is probably more than everyone who has an interest in our side winning is willing to make...I predict that if we could stay strong, Iraq will be a useful ally and a beacon of Middle Eastern democracy by 2050. I just thing that by 2015, when there are still people blowing themselves, and others, up in Iraqi police stations and 1st world bus depots, America will collectively throw in the towel.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:54:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:56:11 PM EDT

Did the US REALLY invade Iraq to make America safer from terrorists


I can't say for sure what the motivation for invading was. I imagine it was a combination of reasons. But this much I know.....the only place there has been any terrorist attacks involving Americans since the war started has been in Iraq.

I don't like seeing our guys dying over there. But the truth is, Iraq is the place where the badguys seem to want to flock to fight the US. Better to face them there with our troops than them face us here against defenseless civilians.

And whether or not the invasion was warranted, we are there now. So all we can do is just remain strong and see this thing through. We can't just simply walk away now. Doing so would be an utter disaster. It would send a message to the terrorists and the world that we are just a bunch of pussies.

And one other suggestion, to all of you who are having doubts.....turn off the fucking tv news. They may be painting us as losing and have given up. But by gosh, our boys on the ground over there haven't given up. Therefore I'll be damned if I give up on them.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:57:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:57:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:58:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



WRONG. When we defeated Japan we established a puppet state and kept a very tight reign on it. That is not happening in Iraq. The Islamic Republic of Iraq will someday become a state sponsor of terror and again threaten the security of the US.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:59:23 PM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:00:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Progunvoter:
The weirdest thing is this, the Democrates failed to exploit this MASSIVE misjudgement of the Republican Administration. Neither party has anything to brag about


I think the Dems should share some of the responsibility for the pickle the USA is in Iraq, because they pretty much dismantled the CIA during Bill Clinton's rein. When the 9/11/01 WTC/Pentagon came along the CIA was ill-prepared for the task of gathering intelligence. The REALIZE the mistake, this would akin to the pot calling the kettle black, so the Dems aren't going to scream too loudly because a little digging here and there and they could end up with $hit on their hands.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:00:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By double_wielder:
No, but we did need to so we could cover up all the oil deals in Afganistan.



At the pump today you have no idea how much I wish this was all about oil.



Its about securing a source of oil other that Saudi.
If no one sells us oil this country shuts down.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:00:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:07:43 PM EDT by Fast_Jimmy]

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



Ask the Marines in ramadi how they're liking their job. And how many more batallions they think they need.

If we stay, I hope our resolve is strong because the hard core veterans of our forces are about to get to the point where they simply cannot be sent back in good conscience. Some Marines are now on their third 7 month tour.
Solutions are difficult, blame is easy, but solves nothing. It's just depressing how much a toll this takes on the less experienced national guard and reserve troops. Ohio has been hit hard.

This was an adventure of the Bush administration pure and simple. Hindsight is 20/20, and it's clear that not only was our intelligence horrible, but the competence of the review and investigation of it was sorely lacking.

If you or I make a decision that costs huge amounts of money based on poor analysis of the available data, especially if we're directly responsible for the review of it, and the people collecting it, we get our asses fired.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I agree with you. I guess we don't have the balls to stick it out. That's obvious by some of the posters in this thread.



They make Bin Laden look like a prophet… he predicted exactly this spinelessness.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:02:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.




sad but true.

I remember Bush saying "they will not shake our resolve" over and over and fucking over again
I was like shut the hell up already, of course they won't. Why are you stating the obvious?
You think we need a pep talk, man? Get outa here!!

A few months down the road, and lo and behold, here we are.

He was right, we did need a pep talk. It's a damn shame really, how weak most of our resolve is.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:02:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Progunvoter:
Only God know's the REAL reasons (there's more than one I'm sure) we are there. Stupidity and very poor thought process of the US leadership. The Bull is in the China shop and now we got to pay for all the glass we broke.

We were INVADERS of a soveign country. No WMD's. What a royal F.U.

I pity our English friends as they too got sucked in and came to our side - THANK YOU BRITS, I'll Remember we owe you one.

The weirdest thing is this, the Democrates failed to exploit this MASSIVE misjudgement of the Republican Administration. Neither party has anything to brag about.

Support the soldiers - SURE. This ill-conceived war? I don't think so. The most sickening part (besides the unnecessary deaths of THEM and US) is that come next election, the Wicked Witch of NY will be our next leader.



Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:02:34 PM EDT
While I applaud the removal of S.H. and all that came with him, I remain hopeful that the only barrier that stands in the way of this being our last 'invasion' is one of technology. Namely, a way to safely and economically extract oil from a nuclear wasteland.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:02:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:03:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:06:38 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



I wouldnt say we should quit.

I say we should fight this war like Gen Sherman fought. Fight a damn war like a damn war. I just dont see any middle easter muslims, especially Iraqis capable of handling the gift we gave them.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:04:38 PM EDT
I just want to give everybody above a big +1 (except, respectfully, mrclean). When the people over there have alternatives to day-to-day poverty and oppression, blowing oneself up vs raising a family will become no contest. We've got a lot to answer for in the past (we got in bed with the devil on several occassions during the cold war, and are arguably at least holding hands in several parts of the world now) but what we're doing over there will pay off in the long term. GW can say silly things like "they hate our freedom" but he must either dumb-down his message to reach the lowest common denominator american, or spend hours and hours trying to explain history and geopolitics to people who watch "reality" television--sort of like talking to a wall, I would suspect. The real truth of the matter is GW is surrounded by a bunch of smart, dedicated people who know that we can shake things up in the region, and have a good chance of things going our way. But we're going to have to expect some mistakes (the armor issue is an example). Compare such things though, to the way we fought WWII. "Sherman armor doesn't hold up against Panzers? That's ok, we can build more tanks and train more crews than they can!" Whereas we're fighting a war that will last at least as long, and we're cranking out UAV's and robots, and revolutionizing warfare in the process, all on the fly. I would argue we have had pretty impressive results thus far, despite our well publicized mis-steps, but often ignored successes.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:04:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By double_wielder:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By double_wielder:
No, but we did need to so we could cover up all the oil deals in Afganistan.



At the pump today you have no idea how much I wish this was all about oil.



Its about securing a source of oil other that Saudi.
If no one sells us oil this country shuts down blows some shit up.



fixed it for you.

you think if every country boycotted selling us oil that the US would say:
"Awwww SHIT, we're screwed now. I guess we should have been more...polite?"

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:04:50 PM EDT
Wrong, right, left, up, down, sideways, it's about showing the fuckers the US doesnt take shit from anyone and WE DONT CUT AND RUN FROM A FIGHT ANYMORE!!!!


While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer:
God Bless America.
Land that I love
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies ,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America
My home sweet home.

God Bless America,
Land that I love
Stand beside her,
And guide her,
Through the night
With the light from above,
From the mountains,
To the prairies,
To the ocean,
White with foam,
God bless America,
My home sweet home.
God bless America,
My home sweet home.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:05:59 PM EDT
Here's the cold hard truth, gentlemen. The War on Terror will go on for years. I predict it will likely continue for a hundred years, maybe more. The winner will be the one who can tough it out and stomach it the longest. It will be a long, bloody war of attrition.

Our enemy is tough. Therefore we gotta be a little bit tougher. However, it's not a good sign to see some people giving up and losing hope only after a few short years of this fight.

We're gonna have to be tougher than this people, if we are to have any chance of winning this fight. And with the realization of what losing means, this is a fight we cannot afford to lose. So suck it up and steel yourselves. We've been in much tougher fights before and didn't give up. We have no chance of being defeated military by this current enemy. The only way we can be defeated is if we defeat ourselves by throwing in the towel.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:06:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:07:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



WRONG. When we defeated Japan we established a puppet state and kept a very tight reign on it. That is not happening in Iraq. The Islamic Republic of Iraq will someday become a state sponsor of terror and again threaten the security of the US.



World class BULLSHIIT.

You mirror the 1945 Monday morning quarterbacks that were making the same silly speculations about Japan in 1945 when they let the Emperor stay.

Let us try something… lets actuality wait and see what happens with the new Iraqi government before we tuck or tails and run.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:10:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



I wouldnt say we should quit. I say we should fight this war like Gen Sherman fought. Fight a damn war like a war.



Sorry, those tactics won't work and you know it. This is a war fought like none before. Terrorism sucks, plain and simple. The only way to deal with them is to kill the terrorists and their sympathizors. The trick is finding them. Killing them is the easy part.



It would work. These people understand brutality , in fact they respect it and respond to it properly. If a city harbors terrorists, then that city became the enemy. A villiage harbors terrorist, then raze that village down. We are letting them coddle the enemy. We are letting the enemy have a mouthpiece. Al JAzeeras satellite should have been knocked out years ago. We need to bust sheads the proper way and set up strongmen that we can manage and they can keep the people in line.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:11:14 PM EDT
To clarify, I'm not talking about "cutting and running" or "leaving before the job is finished". I am however extremely disturbed by the fact that we are going to be having militant islamics (some of whom we actually had to fight) running the country. How long will it be before they start harboring terrorists again?? Espeically considering the fact that they are already siding up with Iran.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:12:39 PM EDT
The time to question the war is past.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:12:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



Ask the Marines in ramadi how they're liking their job. And how many more batallions they think they need.



Really? Why don't you post a link to back up your statement.



Fair enough.

Here's a link:

www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050729/infantrycover.art.htm


And a quote from the story:

Clerics have routinely preached violence against Marines. Early this month, loudspeakers from the Saman Mosque in Ramadi blared: “My God: Victory to the enemy of America!”

Marines estimate that there are roughly 2,000 potential insurgent fighters here, rallied by a hard core of perhaps 150 full-time combatants skilled at sniping and roadside bomb ambushes. Suicide car bombers are also a threat.

“They kill us. We kill them,” Smith says grimly. He could easily use two more battalions of about 850 Marines each, he says.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:12:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



I wouldnt say we should quit. I say we should fight this war like Gen Sherman fought. Fight a damn war like a war.



Sorry, those tactics won't work and you know it. This is a war fought like none before. Terrorism sucks, plain and simple. The only way to deal with them is to kill the terrorists and their sympathizors. The trick is finding them. Killing them is the easy part.



It would work. These people understand brutality , in fact they respect it and respond to it properly. If a city harbors terrorists, then that city became the enemy. A villiage harbors terrorist, then raze that village down. We are letting them coddle the enemy. We are letting the enemy have a mouthpiece. Al JAzeeras satellite should have been knocked out years ago. We need to bust sheads the proper way and set up strongmen that we can manage and they can keep the people in line.



You're not a cop are you?


God I hope not.
I will assume youa re just really worked up and don't mean what you say.
After a further evaluation of your comments, you will realize what you have said and say something to the extent of "well, you all know what I mean...screw those terrorists"
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GTLandser:
I just want to give everybody above a big +1 (except, respectfully, mrclean). When the people over there have alternatives to day-to-day poverty and oppression, blowing oneself up vs raising a family will become no contest. We've got a lot to answer for in the past (we got in bed with the devil on several occassions during the cold war, and are arguably at least holding hands in several parts of the world now) but what we're doing over there will pay off in the long term. GW can say silly things like "they hate our freedom" but he must either dumb-down his message to reach the lowest common denominator american, or spend hours and hours trying to explain history and geopolitics to people who watch "reality" television--sort of like talking to a wall, I would suspect. The real truth of the matter is GW is surrounded by a bunch of smart, dedicated people who know that we can shake things up in the region, and have a good chance of things going our way. But we're going to have to expect some mistakes (the armor issue is an example). Compare such things though, to the way we fought WWII. "Sherman armor doesn't hold up against Panzers? That's ok, we can build more tanks and train more crews than they can!" Whereas we're fighting a war that will last at least as long, and we're cranking out UAV's and robots, and revolutionizing warfare in the process, all on the fly. I would argue we have had pretty impressive results thus far, despite our well publicized mis-steps, but often ignored successes.



+1
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:14:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:16:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



Ask the Marines in ramadi how they're liking their job. And how many more batallions they think they need.



Really? Why don't you post a link to back up your statement.



Fair enough.

Here's a link:

www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050729/infantrycover.art.htm


And a quote from the story:

Clerics have routinely preached violence against Marines. Early this month, loudspeakers from the Saman Mosque in Ramadi blared: “My God: Victory to the enemy of America!”

Marines estimate that there are roughly 2,000 potential insurgent fighters here, rallied by a hard core of perhaps 150 full-time combatants skilled at sniping and roadside bomb ambushes. Suicide car bombers are also a threat.

“They kill us. We kill them,” Smith says grimly. He could easily use two more battalions of about 850 Marines each, he says.




And that article was published before the US offensive in Ramadi, right? So what has happened to those 2000 insurgents now? They bunch up, they die.



Just sounds like a bloodthirsty Marine, not a dire need for more men.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:17:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



WRONG. When we defeated Japan we established a puppet state and kept a very tight reign on it. That is not happening in Iraq. The Islamic Republic of Iraq will someday become a state sponsor of terror and again threaten the security of the US.



World class BULLSHIIT.

You mirror the 1945 Monday morning quarterbacks that were making the same silly speculations about Japan in 1945 when they let the Emperor stay.

Let us try something… lets actuality wait and see what happens with the new Iraqi government before we tuck or tails and run.



You need to associate yourself with reality. Iraq has already declared that the official religion of the state will be Islam, and they have decided that the Koran will be the source for legislation.

They are paving the way to their next conflivt with the US right now.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:18:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

You do realize that the vast vast majority of Iraqi's hate the insurgent terrorists worse then anything? You also realize that the vast majority of insurgents in Iraq right now aren't even from Iraq. Somehow I don't think you understand these facts.



That sounds great.

Prove it with links to numbers/stories that confirm it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:18:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:19:36 PM EDT by distributor_of_pain]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Isolationism doesn't work. Plain and simple. It got us 9-11-2001.

All you ever heard about in the MSM is bad things. You never hear about the 1000 good things that are going on. A lie said enough times starts to sound like the truth. Talk to someone who has been to Iraq to find out how things are going. They are going pretty well. Do a little research and look up the occupation of germany. The US military has done a hell of a job, and continues to do so.



The people of today if alive during WWII would have quit somewhere in the middle of the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Al-Qaeda is apparently right we are to weak, short sighted, and stupid to beat them.



WRONG. When we defeated Japan we established a puppet state and kept a very tight reign on it. That is not happening in Iraq. The Islamic Republic of Iraq will someday become a state sponsor of terror and again threaten the security of the US.



World class BULLSHIIT.

You mirror the 1945 Monday morning quarterbacks that were making the same silly speculations about Japan in 1945 when they let the Emperor stay.

Let us try something… lets actuality wait and see what happens with the new Iraqi government before we tuck or tails and run.



You need to associate yourself with reality. Iraq has already declared that the official religion of the state will be Islam, and they have decided that the Koran will be the source for legislation.

They are paving the way to their next conflivt with the US right now.



A democracy has a tendency to change over time...People having the right to vote...that kinda thing
...have you looked around lately? This ain't your grandpa's country anymore
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:20:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
To clarify, I'm not talking about "cutting and running" or "leaving before the job is finished". I am however extremely disturbed by the fact that we are going to be having militant islamics (some of whom we actually had to fight) running the country. How long will it be before they start harboring terrorists again?? Espeically considering the fact that they are already siding up with Iran.



You don't know anything yet... you are making assumption based on what you see in the press.

There is no agreement on the Constitution yet and the Kurds have stated they will NOT accept a constitution that establishes a Islamic state… This little factoid has not been widely reported.

Wait and see...
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