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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/31/2002 2:52:51 PM EDT
While walking the First Monday Trade Days grounds today, I saw an AR15. It was a Colt 9mm. 7 magazines, plus a case. Several of the magazines were even loaded. 1300.00 It was clearly stamped "LEO ONLY" (or whatever that exact phrase was). I passed on it. The guy indicated we could do it without papers, and would come down even more with a cash/check combo. I am not military or law enforcement. I outrank them both as a citizen. However, I was curious. Was the rifle: A. Stolen B. good deal C. 1300.oo Felony I voted for C. Hence, I passed. I am left wondering though. If I had bought this weapon for 1100.00 or so. Could I have resold it for a profit? What are the legalities, ethics, chances of getting caught? Risk vs. Reward? I weighed the risks in my mind, and passed. I am curious however, what others might have chosen to do. I had the money in the bank, but I walked away top avoid a crime. Would you have done the same? On the same note, this was a nice weekend to walk the place. I saw an M203 Grenade launcher with Leaf and Square sights, plus handguards for 500.00 OBO I passed on that as well. I hate being squeaky clean, but I need to hear if it was right, wrong, stupid to pass up these firearms and accessories. I do not currently own ANY pre ban firearms. Post bans only. Call me paranoid, but ... TIA The[blue]Red[/blue]Goat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 2:54:51 PM EDT
Sometimes it's good to be paranoid.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 2:56:04 PM EDT
I think you did the right thing. Are you sure that was a real M203 and not a flare luancher?
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 2:58:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By big_guy: I think you did the right thing. Are you sure that was a real M203 and not a flare luancher?
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No, I am not certain. I have never owned one before, and I have only seen them on the web in pics. Call me a noob, but it 'looked' like the M203's I had seen on the web. It did not look 'new.' From its outward appearance I am almost certain it was the real deal. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:06:52 PM EDT
in a public forum like that you can never be too carefull. now i would have asked him how he got it, and why he was willing to commit a felony in public. OTOH it is "off the paper" so once the deal were to have been done, if say it was not a sting, you would have been in the clear. and if it were one of those things whare they break down the door later on, it wouldn't be in my home, so they wouldn't have a case anyway. MHO you did good, just cant be too carefull if you don't want a whole world o' hurt.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:09:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By big_guy: I think you did the right thing. Are you sure that was a real M203 and not a flare luancher?
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No, I am not certain. I have never owned one before, and I have only seen them on the web in pics. Call me a noob, but it 'looked' like the M203's I had seen on the web. It did not look 'new.' From its outward appearance I am almost certain it was the real deal. TheRedGoat
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Maybe look down the barrel ( unloaded of course ) and see if it's rifled? Doesn't the M203 have rifling grooves? Unless the 37mm flare launcher also has grooves.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:10:41 PM EDT
They run about $770 direct from COLT and those that will use a distributer for LEO rifle purchases can expect to pay around 850 so it would not only have been a bad idea to buy ot but it would be hard to onload as a LEO gun especially if it was used. If the mags were LEO only also then that drops the mag prices from around $100 a pop to $25-30 each. This is all not to mention that you cannot buy a LEO only gun without doing the proper paperwork. Not legally. It would have been asking for serious trouble. He probably wanted to unload it cheap as he knew it was already a serious profit at $1,100 not to mention he's risking his FFL. I cannot believe how stupid these dealers are or act, and how they try and convince an innocent buyer he can have a restricted weapon just to make a buck. It's just not worth it. On the other hand a preban at those prices would have been a great deal.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:12:17 PM EDT
Congrats RG. You get to keep your "Get out of Jail Free" card this time. LEO means just that.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:15:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2002 3:32:46 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:18:43 PM EDT
You did the right thing. I am paranoid when it comes to these types of things. I would have thought to myself right on the spot that it was a sting op. No question. Then again, that's just me.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:19:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DonR: Congrats RG. You get to keep your "Get out of Jail Free" card this time. LEO means just that.
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Funny way to put it. I also thought back to his willingness to accept part of the payment in check form. I left my tinfoil hat back at the house, but it seemed odd to me. Paper trail? Name addrees and DL#, perhaps?
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:22:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2002 3:26:50 PM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Originally Posted By LE6920: $770 direct from COLT can expect to pay around 850 so it would not only have been a bad idea to buy ot but it would be hard to onload as a LEO gun especially if it was used. On the other hand a preban at those prices would have been a great deal.
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That is exactly my concern. Since it was LEO only, i assumed 850-950 was its value (I was wrong) If it had been a preban (which it wasn't) that its price would have been 1500+ I still don't why the guy wanted semi-preban prices for a 'felony to possess' weapon. I also assumed my odds of reselling it were slim and none. As for the M203. I never took it out of the guy's case, so I do not know if the tube was rifled. The[blue]Red[/blue]Goat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:25:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DarkHelmet: "If it looks too good to be true.... it probably is."
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Good point. I kept thinking the same thing. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:35:23 PM EDT
Good move! Nobody likes a free trip to a Federal "Pound you in the A$$" prison. Vulcan94
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 3:40:55 PM EDT
The Federal Government. Eliminating the gun culture one firearm owner at a time.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 4:57:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2002 4:59:09 PM EDT by Arquebus12]
Legal or no, that's still a lot of scratch for any 9mm carbine, even with an assembled AR lower receiver thrown into the deal. For me, it's a matter of practicality, so I'd pass for that reason first; second, and more importantly, I see red flags a-wavin' with the loaded mags on the table(!), LEO ONLY clearly stamped wherever, and the guy wants to make a reduced quick cash sale? With no papers? Fuck that... now I REALLY don't want it. Ya did good taking a pass, RG. Continued good luck your way. PS- Redgoat, did you mention earlier you were taking your hogs with SA surplus ammo? I picked up two 300 rd. battle packs at the last show I was at, seems clean enough. Any problems with that? [edited to add post script]
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:19:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Arquebus12: PS- Redgoat, did you mention earlier you were taking your hogs with SA surplus ammo? I picked up two 300 rd. battle packs at the last show I was at, seems clean enough. Any problems with that? [edited to add post script]
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Yes, all of my recent hogs have been taken with SA surplus ammo. I love the stuff for hunting boars. Mil-spec. Inexpensive. Effective. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:25:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:43:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Striker: I guess maybe because I use one at work I can't get excited over the 9mm carbine. They are fun to shoot but in my mind impractical. I would much rather have a good .40 handgun and a m4.
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I see your point. KKF is working on a 9mm carbine for me. I am going to try it as a hog weapon. Less damage to my hearing than a .223 and with +P+ ammo, I suspect it will perform as well as my 'Federal Premium, Personal Defense' .40 handgun. 9mm is acceptable against steel plates, when a .223 is not. BTW, my current hog killing package is an 'm4gery' and a .40 handgun. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:43:32 PM EDT
That was a very wise choice you made. The risks were too great.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:48:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2002 5:50:28 PM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Originally Posted By HvyAR: That was a very wise choice you made. The risks were too great.
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Until I posted back here, I was unsure of my decision. I feel vindicated that I did not let my greed overcome my common sense. To top it off, I was fairly certain I would have trouble selling the weapon to anyone from AR15.com. So even then, my greed would have cost me some cash. Once again, common sense (and a healthy dose of reason) prevailed. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:52:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat: It was a Colt 9mm. 7 magazines, plus a case. Several of the magazines were even loaded.
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I can't believe nobody said anything about the bonehead having loaded mags!!! From some of the idiots I've seen at a few gun shows I would've unloaded the mags myself!
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 5:53:34 PM EDT
Was the rifle in preban configuration? If so, then yes it would have been illegal for you to purchase. If someone had just used an LEO lower to build up a postban then it could have been legal. $500 for a real M203 would be a pretty good deal, but since it's considered a DD by itself it would need to be registered just like a machinegun or suppressor. I'm guessing it was probably a 37mm copy, but you never know. Did you happen to see who the manufacturer was on it? If it was a real 40mm it would have been stamped just like a gun.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:02:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Was the rifle in preban configuration? If so, then yes it would have been illegal for you to purchase. If someone had just used an LEO lower to build up a postban then it could have been legal. $500 for a real M203 would be a pretty good deal, but since it's considered a DD by itself it would need to be registered just like a machinegun or suppressor. I'm guessing it was probably a 37mm copy, but you never know. Did you happen to see who the manufacturer was on it? If it was a real 40mm it would have been stamped just like a gun.
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The Colt was in preban config. As for the M203, I am such a noob, I did not even look for a manufacturer. I know soooo very little about M203's I should be slapped. Sorry. I forgot to mention I saw a preban config Mini-14, metal folding stock, 425.00. No documentation available to show it was shipped in preban config. Three seperate vendors, each with a felony for sale... weird. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:08:48 PM EDT
You did the right thing its not worth it. that sounded like a set up. maybe im just paranoid. around here our atf guys are not allowed anywhere near the gun shows though. thats from my depts atf lieason. he didnt say why though.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:15:06 PM EDT
Yep, sounds like you did right then. Usually the 37mm launchers are made out of what looks like sheet metal (think AK) while the 40mm launchers look like a much more heavy duty piece. Was the Mini-14 in the factory folding stock? They are the wood with the metal folder. If so that would have been a great deal as it would have almost definately been the real deal. The stocks themselves go for around $400. I missed a deal like that that was in the classifieds. A factory Ruger folder with two Ruger 20rd mags for $450. Lots of people don't really know what they've got with Ruger folders.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:19:11 PM EDT
If the "dealer" sells a restricted "LE Only" weapon to Mr. Average Gunshow, and that person gets tagged with it, it will trace right back to the dealer who sold it to you. I guarantee it. This is why NO FFL would be so damn stupid as to sell one to a citizen. A dealer recently got arrested for selling the rifles to COPS who had forged dept. letterheads. This leads me to tthe conclusion that it was: A. Stolen and this is unlikely. or B. Some ATF trap. Given that B. is the most plausible answer, I'm really pissed just thinking about it. Along comes "Mr. I Really Don't Know The Law" and bingo instant felony conviction combined with "Illegal purchase attempt at gunshow" drama for the 10 oclock news.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:23:31 PM EDT
So was this guy actually an FFL? I'm assuming by first Monday you are talking about Canton, which is a giant flea market for those who don't know. I've seen people selling guns there before that weren't dealers, just guys like you see set up at some of the gunshows with the "cash & carry" signs. If he was an FFL he's an idiot, if he was Joe Blow I'm wondering how he got the gun in the first place.
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:23:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 6:36:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2002 6:38:47 PM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Canton, which is a giant flea market ... I'm wondering how he got the gun in the first place.
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Yes, Canton. Giant Flea Market. Joe Blow, IMHO. He would have sold it for cash. Unles the ATF had a mobile unit set up ready to tail the purchaser home, I don't see how they would have set this up as a sting. At 1300.00 they would have been waiting all day for someone to walk up with that kind of cash. Mojo, I am glad you guys are not reading a thread from MrsRedGoat describing all my guns she is selling in order to make my bail Steyr, I am left scrathing my head about the whole deal. 1300.00 for a 900.00 LEO Only. Makes very little sense. As for the ammo in some mags, you never know what you are going to see in Canton. I saw several guns, being handled by potential buyers, with a magazine INSERTED. The customers were sweeping each other with the barrel, without checking the chamber! Yikes. Flea markets are strange places sometimes... TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 7:02:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By UlysseNardin_1846: Sometimes it's good to be paranoid.
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It's not paranoia if they are really after you!
Link Posted: 3/31/2002 7:16:11 PM EDT
RG, You did the right thing. The gun may have been stamped "LE ONLY", but you may have ended up with "SUCKER" or, worse yet, "PRISON BITCH" stamped on YOU. That whole scenario stunk like 3 day old fish. Good move passing it up!
Link Posted: 4/1/2002 5:07:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BusMaster007: RG, You did the right thing. The gun may have been stamped "LE ONLY", but you may have ended up with "SUCKER" or, worse yet, "PRISON BITCH" stamped on YOU. That whole scenario stunk like 3 day old fish. Good move passing it up!
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You have a way with words busmaster. Still ROFLing!
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