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Posted: 9/11/2005 4:44:13 PM EDT
Okay, it looks like within a year or two I will be at a point in my life that I can afford to look into building a nice size home out in the middle of nowhere. I intend to design a home from a security stand point. My theory is that you can make a bunker look like a house but can't easily make a house as defendable as a bunker. Is there anywhere to look for ideas? Anyone care to weigh in on contstruction ideas for defendability? I intend to have a full basement that can act as a safe room and vault.

Should be looking for a couple hundred acres in the middle of Tennessee so that I can plonk a house on there. The current game plan is that I acquire the acreage and slowly build up a place over the next few years until I can retire. And in the mean time I can have a bug out location and huntin property.

Ideas?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:46:22 PM EDT
A moat...with cool draw bridge.

I didn't read the whole post, sorry.


ByteTheBullet
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:46:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:47:53 PM EDT
The future Ms. Wingnut vetoed the moat idea, specifically when used in conjuntion with diesel fuel making a fire moat. She also put the kibosh on the pissed off tiger idea.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:49:19 PM EDT
Jeff Cooper, founder of Gunsite Training Center and famous "gun guy" has his house in Paulden Arizona built with a high tower, double door entry hall with firing ports and underground valuts etc....I wish I could give you more detail. As this country sinks into weirdness, it will become more and more of a good idea specially when the SHTF.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:51:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
The future Ms. Wingnut vetoed the moat idea, specifically when used in conjuntion with diesel fuel making a fire moat. She also put the kibosh on the pissed off tiger idea.




Fire moat is too obvious.

Build the moat but load it up with electric eels. As the undead flesh eating zombies wade into the murky waters silently BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT EAT HOT KILOVOLTS AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

* ahem *

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:54:56 PM EDT
One thing is to have outside lights that shine AWAY from the house when turned on.....That way you are dark inside, can see everything, and the BG's outside are blinded by, and in the light. Motion sensors are helpful but can be defeated, just ask SteyrAUG.....he's run some clandestine missions in his front yard to determine how quickly he can move without setting them off......
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:54:59 PM EDT
I've thought about this many times, the main delema I have is to build it with many easy escape routes or to have one main hallway/entrance that is easy to defend and clear if you beleive someone is in the house.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:55:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
The future Ms. Wingnut vetoed the moat idea, specifically when used in conjuntion with diesel fuel making a fire moat. She also put the kibosh on the pissed off tiger idea.




Fire moat is too obvious.

Build the moat but load it up with electric eels. As the undead flesh eating zombies wade into the murky waters silently BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT EAT HOT KILOVOLTS AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

* ahem *





Wrong. This definately requires sharks with lasers on their heads.

But seriously having the house set back on a larger property would give a sizable advantage in early warning. I would think one of the requirements would be a sensor network of some sort to see folks making their way up so the rest of the defenses could be implimented.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:56:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:59:07 PM EDT by Kharn]
Roman-style is probably the best way to go.
Basically, the house is shaped in a square, with an inner court-yard. All exterior windows are thin so no one can climb through them (legally you need a certain-sized window to count as a bedroom, so selling this place would be a pain; you'd have to have normal windows into the court yard to meet code), built entirely of concrete or brick. Enterance is either via heavily secured door from the exterior in, or through the double gates into the court yard and then more fortified doors into the actual house.

Here's a pic to give a general idea, connect the rooms via doorways and halls instead of having doorways into the courtyard for each room:


Kharn
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:57:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 5:01:54 PM EDT by cyclone]
How about some of those pissed off water moccassins from New Orleans for home defense? Put those in the moat
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:57:59 PM EDT
The best defense is to have a great offense. Get a doublewide and twin .50s.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:00:36 PM EDT
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:01:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 5:04:18 PM EDT by fargoman]
Remember the three little pigs seriously, build with Slump block, brick, stone, concrete or cement construction. Not wood or sheetrock. Solid doors.

Remember what ever measures you take to prevent entry should not at the same time prevent you or your family from exiting. You want a safe house not a death trap. Keep the windows small but not too small, barred windows should have a quick release mechanism from the inside.

Basement is a must.

Good field of view with a no-mans land, yeah shade trees are nice but they also provide cover.

Remember, they don't make a house or a building that is capable of surviving a bombing run or a artillery attack but you can make your home resistent to small arms fire and infantry assault.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:02:13 PM EDT
how about making it "convertable"? (Provisions for making windows and doors reinforced in an instant or short period of time (walls and everything else reinforced when built))
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:04:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm



ICF's are looking very very interesting (both from a thermal and security standpoint)

www.buildblock.com/whyicfs.htm

www.rewardwalls.com/
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:07:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:07:31 PM EDT
First, since I am an electronics guy, I priced out a sensor network operating not on motion but on seismic activity. And two sets of lights, one set of high amperage instant on halogen and some of the more efficient lights that take about 5 minutes to come on completely. That way, the first set could be triggered on immediately and go off when the second set came up full strength. Of course, I am planning on an integrated computer controlled package.

I was planning on the external walls to be poured or prefab reinforced concrete with a brick fascade and the windows to have some shattergard or other coating to prevent spall. And for a longer-term defendability, useable shutters (steel). And of course a steel core front door with a reinforced door jamb.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:08:45 PM EDT
Concrete!
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:08:58 PM EDT
I agree with Kharn. Build an inside out house. Square, with a courtyard. One side can be the garage. Build two or three entrances, and no external first floor windows. Or, build them out of 2" lexan and with no ability to open. On the second floor you could have windows to the outside, but keep the shrubs and anything someone could climb or hide in away from the house.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:09:49 PM EDT
Consider rammed earth. Three-foot thick walls will stop a lot of ordnance.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:12:06 PM EDT
What do you think about creating the basement as a first as a self-contained bunker? Then, as funds become available have the ceiling of the bunker used as the slab of the house with entry points from the master bedroom and first floor.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:13:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm



Bullets will pas right through the joints where it isn't poured solid.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:20:32 PM EDT
Do what I am doing now in the house Im building. The first floor is weatherproof, the second floor is the only place you wouldnt want to be in a hurricane.

We designed the first floor and second floor walls to withstand any natural disaster. The foundation is around the outside walls, as is required, but we went ahead and poured foundation for the interior walls also. The foundation is 48"+ in all areas with 16 rebars running in 4x4 formation with collars every 6 inches.

The walls of the first floor are all 8" concrete block, no partitioned walls on the first floor. The walls around the stairs are solid poured concrete with rebar tiedowns to the foundation in the cells 3 feet apart spaced around the house on ALL interior walls. Tie-downs are also around each window. We have 6 mega colunms around doorways, each column is solid poured concrete with at least 6 rebars each with collars every 6 inches. All doorways leading outside are solid poured concrete with rebar tiedowns on each side, the doorjams are quarter-inch thick steel.

We have a double tiebeam on the first floor on the front and back of the house, all other walls ALL have tiebeams, even interior walls. The tiebeam is 18-48inches high with 4-6 rebars in the concrete depending on the height (there is such a difference in the height because the house being built on had a gabled roof). All windows and doorways, including garage doorway, are solid concrete with 6-10 rebar running 2x2 with collars every 6 inches.

The truss system for holding the second floor's floor is a Hambro metal truss system, like the type of trusses warehouses use. The floor of the second floor is 4 inches of steel wire reinforced concrete w/ fiberglass threads.

All exterior second floor walls are 8" cement block with tiedowns to the 1st floor tiebeam every 3 feet. The interior walls on the second floor, are sadly, going to be partition walls.

3700 sqft, large one car garage, 10ft ceilings, 5/3
It is going to cost well over $700,000 when finished.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:22:04 PM EDT
Be sure to use sand.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:26:35 PM EDT
So sand and pissed off water moccassins. So any suggestions for designing a driveway for a chokepoint? Any ideas as to how much an automatic bollard runs? Had the idea of using the excavated dirt from the basement to put up a berm that the driveway would have to pass through creating a perfect ambush point.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:27:01 PM EDT
Have fun storming the castle!

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:27:35 PM EDT
One idea that I had was to have all the bedrooms that will normally be inhabited on the same side of a hallway with doors interconnecting them. This way if badguys make it inside your house, to the floor with bedrooms, you can shoot through walls into the hallway without worrying about loved ones on the other side.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
A moat...with cool draw bridge.

I didn't read the whole post, sorry.


ByteTheBullet



I didn't even get half way through the initial post before i thought " MOAT!"


All i have to add is an Alligator...to put in the moat.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:30:27 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:32:47 PM EDT
Big landscape boulders along driveway funnel it into a chokepoint.

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:34:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




No. I couldn't think of a way to build a brick or concrete wall and then transport it to the range.

I'm still thinking.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:35:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Big landscape boulders along driveway funnel it into a chokepoint.

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




Definitely gonna have to use frangible ammo inside the house. But hey, at least there is next to zero chance of overpenetrating (unless I use that .50bmg CQB rig I've been working on)
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:37:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By postpostban:
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm



Bullets will pas right through the joints where it isn't poured solid.



There aren't any joints, it's a continuous pour. even the header above the garage door is poured, and all the garage walls are poured so the house could be defended even if the garage door was breached.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:38:41 PM EDT
Defense against what?

You could go with an earth-covered house, which would give you excellent protection against ordnance and fallout and wouldn't stick out in skyline, but maybe not have so much sunlight. A sensor network would probably be at least as valuable for a defense.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:41:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Merrell:

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




No. I couldn't think of a way to build a brick or concrete wall and then transport it to the range.

I'm still thinking.




I have a book somewhere that recommended pea gravel between plywood reinforced drywall (similar to the sand in your test) - think the idea with a loose material is that not only will it diffuse the energy from a round, but (with gravity's help) naturally refills the cavity from earlier projectiles, enhancing the durability against repeated fire. Don't recall if there were tests on the optimum granularity (particle size - guess it would range from powder, through sand, up through larger gravel) vs. overall wall thickness...

Wish I had a yard big enough for a range...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:43:28 PM EDT
You guys really need to hang out in the survival forum more............
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:52:12 PM EDT
Basically what I have in mind is the look of a 250 year old European villa using modern contruction and with modern amenitis.


Build near a stream, and put up a power station there.
Build on a hilltop, with reinforced concrete outer walls and steel frame inside (it will be invulnerable to anything reasonably forseeable).
Underground water supply is nice, as is having your own natural gas supply. The latter is really secondary.

I like the idea of roman style construction. Build in a warmer climate, and build it with a courtyard big enough to effectively live in (BBQ, pool, large table[s, depending on the number of freinds you have], all basics for a good party).
Basement underneath the whole thing, with the part of the courtyard that isn't the pool having an all-reinforced-concrete room underneath with vault door. Possibly a second room to serve as a storage room.
A flat roof. In extreme SHTF, you can collect rainwater from the runoffs (ie, if your well and stream have become contaminated). Also, in a hardcore SHTF enviroment, the roof makes an nice place too keep an eye 360 degrees around the (now) compound.

Another thought: the outside windows, get steel shutters for them; either (discreet) solid sliding steel (between the outer brick and the inner concrete wall), or solid and swinging like on old-style european constructions.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:56:28 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:01:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By postpostban:
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm



Bullets will pas right through the joints where it isn't poured solid.



I've seen one...its ALL solid!
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zer04evr:
Do what I am doing now in the house Im building. The first floor is weatherproof, the second floor is the only place you wouldnt want to be in a hurricane.

We designed the first floor and second floor walls to withstand any natural disaster. The foundation is around the outside walls, as is required, but we went ahead and poured foundation for the interior walls also. The foundation is 48"+ in all areas with 16 rebars running in 4x4 formation with collars every 6 inches.

The walls of the first floor are all 8" concrete block, no partitioned walls on the first floor. The walls around the stairs are solid poured concrete with rebar tiedowns to the foundation in the cells 3 feet apart spaced around the house on ALL interior walls. Tie-downs are also around each window. We have 6 mega colunms around doorways, each column is solid poured concrete with at least 6 rebars each with collars every 6 inches. All doorways leading outside are solid poured concrete with rebar tiedowns on each side, the doorjams are quarter-inch thick steel.

We have a double tiebeam on the first floor on the front and back of the house, all other walls ALL have tiebeams, even interior walls. The tiebeam is 18-48inches high with 4-6 rebars in the concrete depending on the height (there is such a difference in the height because the house being built on had a gabled roof). All windows and doorways, including garage doorway, are solid concrete with 6-10 rebar running 2x2 with collars every 6 inches.

The truss system for holding the second floor's floor is a Hambro metal truss system, like the type of trusses warehouses use. The floor of the second floor is 4 inches of steel wire reinforced concrete w/ fiberglass threads.

All exterior second floor walls are 8" cement block with tiedowns to the 1st floor tiebeam every 3 feet. The interior walls on the second floor, are sadly, going to be partition walls.

3700 sqft, large one car garage, 10ft ceilings, 5/3
It is going to cost well over $700,000 when finished.



Wow, that sounds great! I'd love to see pix!
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By postpostban:
A friend of mine is currently building a house with 12'' thick concrete outside walls. He is using a styrofoam moad that you assemble leggo's and fill with conc. It has plastic strips in it to nail siding and drywall to.

The house will be VERY efficient and quite bulletproof.

www.dulley.com/docs/f860.htm



Bullets will pas right through the joints where it isn't poured solid.



I've seen one...its ALL solid!



Some ICF's are (solid), and some have a structure with foam webs (which could be easily penetrated by any rifle caliber) of course the solid would be preferred...


Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:14:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Merrell:

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




No. I couldn't think of a way to build a brick or concrete wall and then transport it to the range.

I'm still thinking.



I can vouch for it's strength!


I once negligently popped a 5.45x39 FMJ point blank and directly into a tile floor (holding the rifle in one hand, at my side, muzzle down). It penetrated the first layer of tile, barely penetrated the second, and stopped at the concrete backing - approximately a half inch total penetration (okay, it didn't 'stop', it fragmented). The tile didn't even crack, it looked as if somoene took an icecream scoop out of it. The first layer was standard ceramic tile, the second was a brick tile, the backing was cement.

(If you care, it took about 15 minutes to fix as there was leftover/replacement tiles from construction. Also taught me a real good lesson in keeping my finger off the damn trigger, and that all guns ARE always loaded... Ya see, at the time I had only one black '74 mag, which I always kept empty. I had just finished a week-long salt-water submersion test on some polymer Wolf ammo and decided to keep the rounds. Guess where I'd put em? Yeah, they still worked ).
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:22:12 PM EDT
Wingnut, IM me if you have any questions reguarding electronic/physical security systems. I install/maintain said systems for a major corp. here in TX. Don't forget to include a CCTV system as a layer in your plan.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:29:59 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:30:21 PM EDT
To Defend againt people assaulting your house - STEAM!

Rig your house so that the roof is in no way an option for "intruders".

Then, a piping system to carry the steam to every possible entrance point on your house.
Each window should have say....5 steam ports. A doorway - 10 or more.

Design your doorway so that the steam jets point towards the door. This will help conceal the jets for the initial assault, as well as making it so that all assaulters who are now getting the SHIT BLASTED OUT OF THEM WITH STEAM...have to go TOWARDS the steam to get away from it.

Also rig every possible entry point with a "fake room". Don't spen fortunes of money on stupid ways to keep people out. These are usually obvious, and will be defeated.

Instead...let them come on in
Once they breech the door they will come into the "fake room" and they will be trapped. Use whatever method you want for this.

make it so that you also have steam jets in the "fake room"

oh motherf#*ker that would NOT be good

Steam is perfectly legal - perfectly cheap (compared to other options) - and perfectly deadly...although very slow and excrutiatingly painful

Another benefit to this, is that all further attempts to assault your house will be thrown in the garbage can.
Bad news, they will probably nuke you from orbit.

Oh yes, you need something for the tanks. Dragons teeth covered in overgrown Ivy combined with a moat can make an attractive, yet formidable defense against the Tank.

Good luck
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:42:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Merrell:

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




No. I couldn't think of a way to build a brick or concrete wall and then transport it to the range.

I'm still thinking.




I have a book somewhere that recommended pea gravel between plywood reinforced drywall (similar to the sand in your test) - think the idea with a loose material is that not only will it diffuse the energy from a round, but (with gravity's help) naturally refills the cavity from earlier projectiles, enhancing the durability against repeated fire. Don't recall if there were tests on the optimum granularity (particle size - guess it would range from powder, through sand, up through larger gravel) vs. overall wall thickness...

Wish I had a yard big enough for a range...



Wouldn't sand pour out from the penetration point(s), though? How about wet sand?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:45:33 PM EDT

Oh yes, you need something for the tanks. Dragons teeth covered in overgrown Ivy


Very feasible, and very low key.
It will also keep out normal BG with trucks, cars, etc.
When I buy a house, I'm using your idea.
Just have to have the Ivy grown already - dont wanna blow opsec with a bunch of concrete barriers out in your yard waiting for the plants to grow.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:55:13 PM EDT
What about an old missile silo thats been converted to a home? Usually in the middle of nowhere, with a good amount of acreage.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:39:39 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:42:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Andreuha:

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Merrell:

OP, did you ever test a brick or concrete Box o truth? (know blocks wouldn't hold up that well, but poured concrete... not sure how to test without ricochet city...)




No. I couldn't think of a way to build a brick or concrete wall and then transport it to the range.

I'm still thinking.




I have a book somewhere that recommended pea gravel between plywood reinforced drywall (similar to the sand in your test) - think the idea with a loose material is that not only will it diffuse the energy from a round, but (with gravity's help) naturally refills the cavity from earlier projectiles, enhancing the durability against repeated fire. Don't recall if there were tests on the optimum granularity (particle size - guess it would range from powder, through sand, up through larger gravel) vs. overall wall thickness...

Wish I had a yard big enough for a range...



Wouldn't sand pour out from the penetration point(s), though? How about wet sand?




I think that was the rationale for using larger screen gravel (rather than sand) - figure anything larger than 1/2 inch would be too big to spill out of an entrance hole, and if the material stopped before exit, then no leakage....

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