Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 7
Posted: 1/28/2008 12:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2008 4:42:13 PM EDT by FordGuy]
I'm here at Ft. Benning GA on TDY attending the Designated Marksman course, and I thought folks who love the black rifle might want a "range report!" (Limited, of course to public domain data) I hope to upload pics later IF they allow me to take/post them. (I actually already asked permission and was told "absolutely!") I decided to leave all faces off except mine, (or those far away/obscured) so you'll see lots of backs of shirts, etc. EDIT: ok, got permission to post some faces, you'll see below! actually folks were eager to show their pearly whites once they saw all the pics and great comments!

So here we are at the home of the Army Marksmanship Unit!


To anyone who would say " thank you for your service" don't thank me..thank these Non Comissioned Officers who run this course - they are the backbone of the Army.

* several people e mailed/im'd me about enlisting: I'm not a recruiter but I'll help any way I can;
* many soldiers sent messages inquiring about how to get in the course: I've replied to all with the NCOIC's info - I'm currently caught up on the replies.
* what kind of rifles: the Armalite rep THE PRESIDENT OF ARMALITE (sorry Sir, I didn't know) posts on page 5, I believe. very informative post, mostly Armalite national match components with Daniel Defence rail, Harris bipod. Barrel is bull, Armalite Stainless. 8 twist. 2 stage Arkalite match trigger.

these NCOs and Civilians are awesome. I have NEVER seen such a well-run course, and I'll be singing their praises at my home station.........so here goes!

This turned into a ARFCOMVENTION when I ran into at least two more ARFCOM ambassadors of the Black Rifle! One of them is another soldier who decided to take a few minutes from his lunch break and coach my shooting, and help pull targets! I won't call his name but will post a pic or two. SEVERAL more arfcomers were there also, I'll let them chime in if they want to.
Let's get this started right. We let our rifles 'sleep in' till the crack of 7.....here they are, a family of Armalite rifles, sleeping soundly together....shhhhh! They insisted on pillows in "Army Digital" pattern....



I gathered up just any old ammunition I could find.....here's some....it says something about "Black Hills" I suppose it'll do...

If this isn't enough, there's a whole case of it in the back of the F-250.

a close up, you say?



For those with AKO access, the course materials are online, so I won't go into specifics, but there are some things I can tell...(also, there is a lot of public domain info on SDM, here's a link for example... link )

First day of SDM I learned more about precision shooting out past 600 meters than I have learned from every Preliminary Marksmanship instruction or PMI class I have ever attended in 19.5 yrs of service. the .mil guys are all "President's Hundred" and they also have civilian coaches from the CMP program! What an incredible partnership, and the beneficiary is each soldier-sailer-airman-marine who comes through this course!

The Long Walk downrange!
The shot you see here is of targets that are more than 600 meters away. So we picked up our rifles and moved toward the 300 meter line. Our first engagement was from 300 meters. Source units only sent folks that could routinely hit a 300 meter silhouette, so everyone here is familiar with putting steel on target.


And one of today's firing line - and I swear this Coach (blue jacket) has got to be Old Painless's twin brother! (OP, is that really you?...ok, ok, but you gotta twin?)



My buddy caught my brass in the pic!



A better close up




Yep...all that came out of the old beat-up F-250 range truck.....What F-250 you ask? Well, while I was loading up with Black Hills ammo, enjoying the smells/sights of a known distance range (KD range) some guys pulled up in this...and I had to pose for a pic!!! You know that Black Hills ammo? Cases...and cases...in the bed of this truck...


So while I'm ogling the truck..guess who walks up? The NAVY!!!! Super nice fellows. These guys are a Riverine unit, and they will probably be patrolling the Tigris or Euphrates in the coming months, at least after this experience they will be able to reach out and touch the goblins...with 77 grains of hot, smokin, screamin lead...Just so you know, of the folks I've talked to, we have Active Army, Reserves, National Guard, Navy. The navy guys said they currently have M-14 but said they are working toward building SDM rifles like the Armalite's in the pic above.



the Guys in blue are the civilian CMPs...my coach is in blue. And super nice too...


So I got to work...My assigned CMP coach, "G man" says "shooting is hard work. If you are not working hard for each shot, you're not doing it right. Work hard, men!!!"

Yall ever heard of "chipmunk cheek?" You want your head to "settle in" to the rifle, pulling your cheek up on to the stock, hence the term "chipmunk cheek." Well, how do you like mine?


And the obligatory pic through the ACOG from 300 meters. (MORE OF THESE ON PAGE 2)




Ok so we wrapped up our day by shooting from 500 meters with iron sights. I can hit center of mass all day long from half a Kilometer away...but after time with these guys, EVERYONE can! That's right, every firing point was getting them all in a man sized silhoutte from 500 meters with a 5 to 12 mile per hour crosswind!!! think about that...

and can you guess who this guy coaching the shooter is?



So here's another member of ARFCOM who dropped by to help out - this is one heck of a soldier - and an outstanding member here - I won't "call him out" but i'm sure he will be along shortly!

While I have your attention - please note the structure around me - each target is controlled by a shooter from another firing line. We rotate, shoot then move behind the berm to "mark targets." This isn't automated - it is done the old fashioned way. And once again, there are USAMU NCOs back there to help make sure this thing runs like a top!


And now from a shooter's perspective, and from the range of 600 yards.




Happiness....is a bucket of brass!


We covered, among other things,
*Natural Point of Aim (NPA)
*Settling in to the weapon
*proper follow through
*the magic of a two stage 4.5 lb trigger...!
* the formula for correcting windage... for example, that if you are engaging a 400 meter target with a 10 mile an hour cross wind, the windage induced horizontal/lateral error at the POI will be 16 inches;
*we learned you don't need a zero range to zero
*How to engage in "no man's land." the average rifleman engages targets from 0 to 300 meters, the sniper engages from 600 meters on out, but the Squad Designated Marksman is especially trained to use the SDM rifle (PICS COMING!!!) to engage targets from 300 to 600 meters (and beyond) to the very limit of what heavy Black Hills ammo will do;
* how to "read the mirage" to estimate wind
* difference between "squared off" stance for close quarters marksmanship and shooting position for long range shooting, standing, kneeling, and prone;
*"Focus on the front sight, SMOOTH on the trigger." nuff said.

So sorry for the generalities, but I wanted to say enough to get some interest without giving away the farm if you know what I mean! Again, google SDM to learn more than I Have said here!

Oh, by the way, the weapon is ....drumroll please....An AR-15 made by Armalite. With 2 stage match trigger (breaks clean at 4.5 pounds) and Daniel Defense free floated rail. It has the CMP emblem on the side. ACOG was a TAO1. They also have TA31F (chevron).

YOU CAN KEEP THE M-4, I'LL TAKE THE TWENTY INCH!!!!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:49:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2008 12:51:37 PM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:50:11 PM EDT
I am jealous. Learn your craft well. Use it for good. Have fun. I wish I was there.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:52:05 PM EDT
Tag for more info, and thank you for your service.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:52:28 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:52:49 PM EDT
Looking forward to pics . . . (not a tag)
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:53:35 PM EDT
tag for pictures
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 12:56:57 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:00:14 PM EDT
kool, tag
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:01:33 PM EDT
TAG!

Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:02:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:03:12 PM EDT
Good luck in your training. Your hard work will pay off and those in your unit will reap the benefits too. Thanks for serving.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:03:15 PM EDT
Eagerly waiting for pics!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:05:48 PM EDT
YARGHHH
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:08:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By numberofthebeast:
Eagerly waiting for pics!


+1
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:13:07 PM EDT
I get to go and be on the teaching staff in a few weeks.

I love my job
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 1:47:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:
I get to go and be on the teaching staff in a few weeks.

I love my job


well I think you are about to love your job even more!!!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:37:55 PM EDT
I am one of the CMP instructors for that course. It sounds like you are one of the more motivated individuals attending, which is great. There is a lot of information put out that first day in class. Now you get to put it to work the rest of the week, which is the fun part. Pictures shouldn't be a problem, we took plenty as instructors and distributed them. If I could find the folder they are in I will try to post some.

Just a little correction on the rifles - they are not M16s but civilian AR15s built by Armalite for the CMP. They have DD rails, rejected AMU barrels (which are still really, really good), two-stage NM triggers (don't remember the make), Harris bipods and Trijicon TA01s. The TA01 is preferred as it gives a more precise sight picture at longer ranges than the donut reticle. A little known secret is that the CMP is the main supporter of the program, not the Army. They bought and paid for the rifles, they provide all the ammo for the Benning courses (Black Hills 77gr M262), and pay for the CMP instructors travel and lodging (volunteering covers the salary part ).

I found it a little ironic that a program that was originally created for the military to promote civilian marksmanship now ends up having to support the military. It says something about priorities in the Defense Dept that the Army has to do this to get its soldiers proper training. So get out there and buy your CMP Garands and ammo if you want to see this program continue!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:40:16 PM EDT
OST for pics.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:41:14 PM EDT
I taught as a civilian instructor for guardsmen in my state a few years ago. Good course and it was good to get some young troops some trigger time at ranges beyond what is normally practiced.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:43:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFaz:
I am one of the CMP instructors for that course. It sounds like you are one of the more motivated individuals attending, which is great. There is a lot of information put out that first day in class. Now you get to put it to work the rest of the week, which is the fun part. Pictures shouldn't be a problem, we took plenty as instructors and distributed them. If I could find the folder they are in I will try to post some.

Just a little correction on the rifles - they are not M16s but civilian AR15s built by Armalite for the CMP. They have DD rails, rejected AMU barrels (which are still really, really good), two-stage NM triggers (don't remember the make), Harris bipods and Trijicon TA01s. The TA01 is preferred as it gives a more precise sight picture at longer ranges than the donut reticle. A little known secret is that the CMP is the main supporter of the program, not the Army. They bought and paid for the rifles, they provide all the ammo for the Benning courses (Black Hills 77gr M262), and pay for the CMP instructors travel and lodging (volunteering covers the salary part ).

I found it a little ironic that a program that was originally created for the military to promote civilian marksmanship now ends up having to support the military. It says something about priorities in the Defense Dept that the Army has to do this to get its soldiers proper training. So get out there and buy your CMP Garands and ammo if you want to see this program continue!



This is sad and awesome all at the same time.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:44:57 PM EDT
This is an
Awful
Good thread.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:48:30 PM EDT
Ost!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:50:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFaz:
I am one of the CMP instructors for that course. It sounds like you are one of the more motivated individuals attending, which is great. There is a lot of information put out that first day in class. Now you get to put it to work the rest of the week, which is the fun part. Pictures shouldn't be a problem, we took plenty as instructors and distributed them. If I could find the folder they are in I will try to post some.

Just a little correction on the rifles - they are not M16s but civilian AR15s built by Armalite for the CMP. They have DD rails, rejected AMU barrels (which are still really, really good), two-stage NM triggers (don't remember the make), Harris bipods and Trijicon TA01s. The TA01 is preferred as it gives a more precise sight picture at longer ranges than the donut reticle. A little known secret is that the CMP is the main supporter of the program, not the Army. They bought and paid for the rifles, they provide all the ammo for the Benning courses (Black Hills 77gr M262), and pay for the CMP instructors travel and lodging (volunteering covers the salary part ).

I found it a little ironic that a program that was originally created for the military to promote civilian marksmanship now ends up having to support the military. It says something about priorities in the Defense Dept that the Army has to do this to get its soldiers proper training. So get out there and buy your CMP Garands and ammo if you want to see this program continue!


Thank you and the other volunteers for your time and efforts for this program, and the excuse to order another case of 30-06 for my Garand.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:50:53 PM EDT
Sounds like fun. Tag.

-Ben
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:53:07 PM EDT
I'm just in the Guard, is there a way to go to this school? I am a 13P, combat arms but not 11 series.

I've got to know!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:56:29 PM EDT
I think if I were to be in the military, in a capacity that I had to carry a rifle and shoot at Tangos, I'd want the Designated Marksman position.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 6:57:32 PM EDT
Tag, just because its been so long since I've been to Benning.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:01:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:02:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FordGuy:

YOU CAN KEEP THE M-4, I'LL TAKE THE TWENTY INCH!!!!


Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:11:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFaz:
A little known secret is that the CMP is the main supporter of the program, not the Army. They bought and paid for the rifles, they provide all the ammo for the Benning courses (Black Hills 77gr M262), and pay for the CMP instructors travel and lodging (volunteering covers the salary part ).


I'm shocked that it has come to a non-profit organization stepping in to help the Army provide marksmanship instruction that has been lacking for the last 30+ years.



Really, I am.


I found it a little ironic that a program that was originally created for the military to promote civilian marksmanship now ends up having to support the military. It says something about priorities in the Defense Dept that the Army has to do this to get its soldiers proper training. So get out there and buy your CMP Garands and ammo if you want to see this program continue!


This almost makes me want to vomit. The Dept of the Army, the DOD, the NCA, and Congress are complicit in this marginalization of marksmanship in the Army. I have been variously disgusted, disappointed, and less-than-impressed at the marksmanship training I have seen or experienced since Day One in the Army.

While I congratulate the CMP and its volunteer instructors . . . as a professional officer, I would rather see their precious non-profit dollars spent on more junior/youth indoctrination (ahem, instruction) and spreading the Gospel according to John (Moses Browning) to the unwashed masses of the the US population.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:12:08 PM EDT
ost
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:48:11 PM EDT
I got back from Iraq a couple of months ago and I could tell you horror stories about Army Marksmanship.

My unit didn't zero our aimpoints until we got to Iraq, I made sure our platoon boresighted with the laser beforehand. The other platoons didn't bother and it took them took hours to zero, we were done in 30 minutes. Noone brought zero targets or knew the offset for the various optics--except me.

Our platoon had two ACOG's and our company had one Barrett .50, which we never got to use. We didn't have enough rail systems to go around.

On the plus side, the active duty unit that replaced us--every NCO had an ACOG and the troops had the new aimpoint, although serveral troops didn't know how to operate them.

And I used an M4, it's easier to use in an urban enviroment, and plenty deadly for most engagement distances. Anything over 300M, I'll let my gunner with his 50 deal with it.

Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:07:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Oh, by the way, the weapon is M-16 A-4, Armalite.


Where are all the Tier 1 fanboys now?
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:14:01 PM EDT
Cool.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:18:32 PM EDT


kick to the front of the line for more info/pics
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:21:40 PM EDT
tag-a-licious
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:25:01 PM EDT
Whats the correct formula for windage and does it only apply to 20 inch AR's?
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:30:08 PM EDT
Can't wait for an update
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:32:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Oh, by the way, the weapon is M-16 A-4, Armalite.


Where are all the Tier 1 fanboys now?


Whats wrong with Armalite?
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:40:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By ken_mays:

Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Oh, by the way, the weapon is M-16 A-4, Armalite.


Where are all the Tier 1 fanboys now?


Whats wrong with Armalite?


Apparently, not a damned thing!
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:43:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2008 4:37:42 AM EDT by Naked80]

Have fun.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 9:48:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 10:00:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2008 10:02:19 PM EDT by daemon734]
i was supposed to go to the full course but got screwed and took a short breather course on SDM before we went to Iraq. Im even stationed at Benning originally, so im going to try and hit it when i get back.

as far as unit marksmanship goes, even in infantry and armor it is kind of lacking in certain areas, although it is up to the individual leadership to kick it up on notch. my platoon had our own borelights, zero targets for individual systems like Peq2 and acog, and we made sure we get plently of range time to confirm and experiment. another platoon in my company could care less about that and it shows.

as far as the M16 goes, im glad that even though i am the de facto squad SDM at the moment i still got an M4 with an acog. i am in and out of vehicles way too much to get the musket.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 10:11:40 PM EDT
The amount of training we received in preparation for Iraq was a joke. I am embarrassed, almost ASHAMED to be in an Army with such fucked up priorities. The only time we shoot is to zero and qualify and that's only twice a year. This is a Goddamn Infantry unit.

Wow, shooting 10 rounds to zero and 40 to qualify has sure made me quite the marksman.

Other pre-deployment training we have conducted included:
1. Glass houses, which is retarded and pointless, unless you are a cherry ass private.
2. One instance where they gave us blanks and let us run around MOUT City, which was a completely unorganized free-for-all.
3. NTC. We sat on top of an OP for 2 weeks straight.


Hopefully, our new chain of command can put out a new METL that actually makes sense, but this is the Army and that's wishful thinking.

My company sent a few NCO's to some week long carbine class not too long ago, and that was the last I heard about it. Senior NCO's, you need to take this information and teach your soldiers, because that might be the only training they get.
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 5:39:40 AM EDT
Sounds like fun to me.
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 5:48:22 AM EDT
Sounds a little like what the USMC taught me 25 years ago!
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 2:11:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2008 5:28:39 PM EDT by FordGuy]
So, it looks to be a good day at the KD range!




When we talk about President's Hundred, this is it..


This is what I'd like to try for this August. The pic above is from one of the USAMU staff.


And my CMP coach? Here he is, let's call him "G."


this is the Blue Crew! They are the CMP folks that function as coaches, and safeties, on the range. I told them about the ARFCOM thread and they were happy to oblige with a photo!



Quit screwing around, Fordguy, this range is HOT!



here's the "Focus on the front sight" part of the equation!



and here is a focus on the target (error).


So....focus on the front sight...
Smooth on the trigger.




To top if all off....Here is some FIRST CLASS coaching from THE BACKBONE OF THE ARMY....THE NCO!!! HOOOAAA!
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 2:17:30 PM EDT
Yep. 20 inchers will get you the best results.
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 2:20:26 PM EDT
What kind of barrels are used? You stated that they were rejected AMU barrels, but I don't know what they use either.

Are they SS, HBAR, etc.?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 2:28:09 PM EDT
appear to be stainless steel full profile Hbar...and if I can hit a man sized target at 500 meters with them then I'd love to see the barrels they didn't reject!
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 7
Top Top