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Posted: 2/25/2002 11:40:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 11:46:49 AM EDT by FLGreg]
WOW! [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/02/24/soldier.killed/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/25/soldier.killed.ap/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 12:29:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 12:43:25 AM EDT
that just plain sucks!! for both sides, on the police officers side he has to live with the fact he killed a US soldier, who wasnt endangering his life. truly sad. I guess the military needs to communicate better with local law enforcment even if they wherent involved in the excersize, whenever the excersize takes place in there jurisdiction they should be notified.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 12:48:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 12:51:55 AM EDT by Boland]
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:22:10 PM EDT
I think the LEO is this case is a LIAR and a shitheel
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Based on.......?????
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:57:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 8:57:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CANADIAN_TACTICAL: I think the LEO is this case is a LIAR and a shitheel. And I am always pro-LEO
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Yeah, I can see just how pro-LEO you really are. How can you call him a liar? Everything so far points to this being an accident, The Sheriffs Office says they werent notified, and the ARMY admits that the soldiers thought the sheriff was part of the "game" and that one soldier tried to disarm hime while the other went for the M-16 in the back. But of course, its still the LEO's fault. He should have known that there were blanks in that M-16. While the anti-cop crew on AR15.com feels this is yet another reason to cop-bash, I think that you guys should look elsewhere. If there isnt anything more to this story, then what you have here is a mistake.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:36:46 PM EDT
CANADIAN_TACTICAL, There's a great cop-bashing thread on this subject in General Discussion right now. Why don't you take your thoughts there and share them with the other folks there who also don't know what psychoanalysis is, eh? The best you're probably going to do here is get this topic locked.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 4:06:16 PM EDT
Dave, Not all of us who have problems with the way LEOs behave are ignorant, uneducated keyboard commandos. QS
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 3:57:08 AM EDT
I think the lack of commmunication between the SO and the army would be mostly to blame adn the officer more than likely reacted with good officer survival instincts. In my world any one who threatens my personal saftey or that of others is bad very bad. And any actions that would be nesacary to ensure I would go home at the end of my shift to see my wife and kid are completly acceptable. If the army SF individuals had used there common sense when the SO deputy had drawn his weapon after they had tried to disarm him they should have been able to tell the deputy was not playing and very serious through this whole incident. I would like to know if the SO has ever acted in any part of these exercises in the past. And what in the world made the Army SF think the SO was involved. To the person who stated the Deputy was a liar, You are obviously not an LEO and would never become one even if you tried to. You and Your type are the ones I would issue a speeding ticket to and then say yes sir through the whole stop and then go to my suppervisors and complain about the stop and ticket and demand they dismiss the ticket. And after the supervisor offered to review the video tape and let you know if any thing wrong was done by the officer you would still appear in court and ensure I get some overtime pay which is ok with me. And depending on the judge still pay the ticket. So if you have never been in the situation where your decision you make in less than 1-3 seconds decides wheather you go home at the end of your day or not do not judge those who have. I feel there is a great debt owed to all LEO's and Emergency Service workers. So many gave there lives last year to save the lives of others in NY. They did this without taking time to think the out come their only concern was to help those in need of help [Soapbox]
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 1:57:25 AM EDT
just a quick remark!!!!!!! cop worked there 7yrs. known about this type of training {but not on this day right} 1 non military man in back on tax payers car right so far. cop when back to truck to talk to passenger of truck whiling man in back of truck was {alleged by the m16} right again. where in his statement did he say he looked in the back of truck by this game {the threat assemment no1 close person to u or so i have been trained}and why was there no plate check done by the cop. 1st thing i do is plate check see who i'm walking up on. In his own words said he thought the truck was strange wit ha man riding in the back with 40degree weather. plate check come back gov. no problems, no shots, no kills. MY $.02 but sounds good to me but with pay never in my county
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 6:02:29 AM EDT
These were SF guys in civies, they had weapons, and tried to disarm the Deputy. The SF guys thought the Deputy was a role player and the Deputy acted accordingly after they tried to take his gun. And governemnt owned license plates don't show up in NCIC as such all the time. Most of them are blocked as to a return at all. IE No record.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 9:44:32 AM EDT
From the information available, the Deputy was not aware that the vehicle he was stopping was involved in an exercise. He knew that [b]HE[/b] wasn't involved in one. There is no evidence that the vehicles involved bore any distinguishing marking to indicate that they were involved in any exercise, nor was there any indication that any of the participants wore distinguishing markings or identification on their clothing indicating that they were participants in an exercise. No verbal ID was passed either. It seems to be that a key safety procedure, identifying participants from those not involved off the military reservation was omitted or not even considered. Bad move on the military primarily, and the local LE folks, too. As for the incident as related in the media, under the circumstances he was presented with, the Deputy responded correctly, defending himself from what he perceived as serious threat against his life. Hopefully everyone will learn from this incident. Something nobody here has considered, though. Suppose the incident had involved an officer who was a knowing participant and the SF guys, out in the middle of town, had overpowered the officer as part of the exercise, only to have a civilian CCW holder, not in on the exercise, come to the aid of the officer who didn't need it. I really think the days of holding exercises involving SF and local LE out in town, in an uncontrolled environment, needs to be seriously reconsidered. Such exercises need to be conducted, but they should occur in an environment where only active participants or observers can be present to avoid unnecessary accidents.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 8:04:42 PM EDT
i dont know how many of you are "LE" out there but i am and the main thing that i was taught in "basic police recruit training" was that i am the one wanting to go home and will go home at all cost!i am not going to blow sunshine up your a-- but this is a messed up job!and anything can happen. my brother is 82nd AIRBORNE and i know if you start trying to take his weapon or point a gun at him what will happen!!THIS WAS A MAJOR!! LOSS BUT SIT BACK AND LOOK AT BOTH SIDES OF THE DEAL!!
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:09:42 PM EDT
I did. Look at both sides, that is. I don't know any law enforcement agency foolish enough to conduct training exercises in a public place involving a traffic stop with the potential for confrontation without first establishing complete control of the training environment, to include removal of any live ammunition from the role-players. The more I think of it, the more I tend toward the conclusion that there is much more to this event that we're being allowed to see. For one thing. The trainees were supposedly to be evaluated for their performance 0on the exercise. Well...Where the hell were the evaluators while their charges were confronting an officer not part of the exercise? Where was the communication and control for the exercise? What are "they" hiding, if anything?
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 7:37:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 8:57:47 AM EDT by CANADIAN_TACTICAL]
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 11:09:27 AM EDT
CT, Your initial post borders on trolling for a fight. that's a no-no. That would get a topic locked and could result in the poster's account being suspended. What is the source of your information? How about some links? Everything I've seen on the news and on the net, other than forums, tends to support the Deputy's story, including the Army's public response which indicated that there was only a general notification that an exercise was in progress, and that there was no notification of the specific recon exercise made to the SO. For info, I did a Google search using the words "Deputy Special Forces." Of note is the WRAL video.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:16:18 PM EDT
ot all of us who have problems with the way LEOs behave are ignorant, uneducated keyboard commandos. END quote No but 99.9999999% are just what you described. The Army messed up on this one the LEO did what he was trained to do. Its a sad affair with no winners. One thing is interesting is that the LEO was able to defeat a gun grab by 2 special forces guys. PAT
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 10:02:48 PM EDT
You can hear in his voice on the tape that the deputy thought he was fighting for his life. The soldiers were roll-playing, likely at much less than 100% until after the first shot.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 11:38:34 AM EDT
I hope everyone thinks to remember none of us were there and u cant armchair quarterback a officer who has 1/2 a second to make a desicion between life or death. i wonder what type of call he was responding to. his dispatch should have notified him they were in the area training.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 11:43:48 AM EDT
sorry just realized it was a car stop. u never know who ur stopping. im sure he had no idea either. its a unfortunate situation.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:48:28 AM EDT
But of course, its still the LEO's fault. He should have known that there were blanks in that M-16. I guess he also should have known that the bullets in the gun they were trying to take off his hip were the non-fatal variety also! I just have to say somebody dropped the ball in this case!
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