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Posted: 10/2/2011 4:58:02 AM EST
Saw this yesterday:

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/09/geek-dads-please-show-your-support-of-model-rocketry/#disqus_thread

DOT Wants to label model rocket motors as "Explosives" for shipping. I know a lot about the properties of explosives and hazard classes from my job, and no way would DoD make such a classification. There's no evidence that there has ever been an incident with motors in shipping, no way they can spontaneously ignite, or that they have an output that would ever transition to an explosion. I'm wondering if this is a political trial for doing the same thing to ammo.

I think ammo makers and gun users ought support the rocketry hobbiests, because this sets an unsettling precedent. (Not just because I like shooting rockets with my boys). ;)
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:59:36 AM EST
The rocket motor industry doesn't have lobbyist like we do.

They will try though.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:03:21 AM EST
This administration doesn't like model rocketry because they worry that some bright individual will combine model rocketry with GPS guidance and turn model rockets into instruments of war that can be used to attack government offices and workers.


But it's more practical to use R/C aircraft, rather than rockets.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:04:27 AM EST
does this mean an increase in home made sugar motor manufacturing?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:04:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:05:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Crap..there goes my plans for my fleet of R/C cruise missles.

They're after R/C aircraft too.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:05:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3Trip:
does this mean an increase in home made sugar motor manufacturing?

You mean pipe bombs?


Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:10:47 AM EST
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:11:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 5:12:41 AM EST by gonzo_beyondo]

Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?

No.


Allow me to be more specific:

The US Department of Transportation (DOT) has recently advised that they propose to terminate a special permit under which model rocket motors and igniters have been shipped for the last 33 years. If the permit is terminated model rocket motors and igniters will no longer be able to be shipped as "Flammable Solids" and will instead have to be shipped as "Explosives."

In 33 years there have been no incidents involved in the shipping and transporting of model rocket motors and igniters.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:14:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 5:14:50 AM EST by gonzo_beyondo]
They're also after shipping restrictions bans on R/C batteries, specifics of that I don't know.



Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:15:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?


I had a rocket that had a clear chamber in it for a payload. I put a junebug in there and loaded up a C motor, junebug died sometime during the flight.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:16:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?

No.


Allow me to be more specific:

The US Department of Transportation (DOT) has recently advised that they propose to terminate a special permit under which model rocket motors and igniters have been shipped for the last 33 years. If the permit is terminated model rocket motors and igniters will no longer be able to be shipped as "Flammable Solids" and will instead have to be shipped as "Explosives."

In 33 years there have been no incidents involved in the shipping and transporting of model rocket motors and igniters.


Bureaucrats, like rust, never sleep.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:18:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jeff_1:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?


I had a rocket that had a clear chamber in it for a payload. I put a junebug in there and loaded up a C motor, junebug died sometime during the flight.

So this is all YOUR fault!
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:19:23 AM EST
this is the kind of stuff that happens when you have buildings worth of people sitting around with nothing important to do but needing to look busy
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:36:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 5:37:17 AM EST by GB243]
E-mail sent to Specialpermits@dot.gov .
posted to FB
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:46:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Agilt:
this is the kind of stuff that happens when you have buildings worth of people sitting around with nothing important to do but needing to look busy

An underestimated but significant part of our troubles.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:47:59 AM EST
Fucking insurance companies are behind this.

Follow the money.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:18:39 AM EST
Stupidity in action. We have no idea how to actually make anyone safer, so let do SOMETHING.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:29:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By 3Trip:
does this mean an increase in home made sugar motor manufacturing?


Shhh! They'll ban sugar!
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:34:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By 3Trip:
does this mean an increase in home made sugar motor manufacturing?


Shhh! They'll ban sugar!


they already want to
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:39:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:04:38 AM EST
Is there a link to this on ROL or other hobbyist forums? This sounds like an issue where we need to get in contact with our senators and reps.

This is disappointing, but not surprising. Just like TSA, we are going after weapons, instead of terrorists. Except in this case, no one has even used hobby level rocketry for nefarious purposes.

The govt bureaucrats seem to think Bob the retired Lockheed engineer, or Frank the computer programmer, is going to help Akhmad, the lonely quiet guy from Pakistan with his Level III cert projects, just cause he seems like a nice young man?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:06:52 AM EST
Email sent to the DOT.

I realize that this isn't an attack against the 2nd or firearms directly but it would be great to see this turn into a fire mission of sorts and put the power of the Hive to work..
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:11:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:12:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?


Yes.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:17:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By skeeterh:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Has there EVER been an accident involving rocket motors?


Yes.


Aerotech had an enormous fire (and explosion) at their storage facility in AZ, I believe? This was a few years back. But that was a storage problem, not a transport problem, and we are talking thousands of pounds, vice a few pounds at the most for most hobbyists.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:19:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 7:21:38 AM EST by TrapperJohn4077]
Does this cover 350 Rocket through 455 Rocket motors? Or even the lil ones?
Is this simply an Oldsmobile prejudice?

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:21:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dog1:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
I'm starting to believe it wouldn't be all that bad if DC got nuked when Congress was in session.

just sayin


Strangely, I'm ok with this.


Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:25:56 AM EST
The feds have had a hard-on for hobby rocketry for years. BATFE tried to essentially shut down the High Power side, but finally were given a kick in the nuts by Federal Judge Reggie Walton.

The weird thing is that prior to now, DOT has been pretty cooperative with rocketry. They must be under pressure for this move, seems like an attempt to limit the source of high-power fliers - the kids who start out with Estes and Quest kits.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:33:32 AM EST
What is this classification change supposed to do?
Flammable solids and explosives are treated and charged the same by shipping companies.
They're both table 2 hazmat.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:04:54 AM EST
Hobbies such as model rocketry are evil and should be banned or discouraged whenever possible. First of all, there is the danger, as noted above, of a terrorist building a fleet of ballistic missiles or cruise missiles (hobbyist jet engines should be banned also).

Also, when children are exposed to things such as this they may develop an interest in science. This makes the government plan for developing a welfare / food stamp based society that is dependant upon the government for everything, much more difficult to implement.

While we are at it, there are quite a few books that can be used for evil purposes and promote productive thought. We should start planning how to get rid of those also.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:18:43 AM EST
First they came for the model rockets?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:20:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By Badass03:
Originally Posted By Dog1:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
I'm starting to believe it wouldn't be all that bad if DC got nuked when Congress was in session.

just sayin


Strangely, I'm ok with this.




I'm inside the blast radius for a strike on the capital. Please use something small and clean.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:28:17 AM EST
This administration is all about setting this country backwards. Zero has dismantled the space program, done nothing to encourage R&D at any level and destroyed the economy. Getting rid of model rocketry is just another to discourage kids from taking an interest in anything remotely educational. Plus its a step towards banning the transportation of ammo via common carrier. After if something that has been transported by common carrier for 33 years with no problem then its just natural to extend the ban to ammo since its actually just as dangerous.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:29:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 8:30:20 AM EST by Furious]
PLEASE READ



I just got an email this morning from my RC field president and another from Tower Hobbies saying this. The Feds have been in discussions with the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics) for some time now about putting serious "restrictions" on RC airplanes. Now it seems that they are attacking model rockets first.
I remember building rockets with my Dad back when I was very young. Then when I was in 8th grade our industrial arts teacher had us all build model rockets from scratch. I sure hope that they dont eventually take our hobbies from us all together.




Here's a sample email that you could fill with your name and send the feds to possibly stop this in its tracks. Please take the time to send this and help fight this attack against our harmless hobbies. It will only take a couple minutes of your time. THANK YOU.






TO: specialpermits@dot.gov
Subject: DOT-SP 7887 Show Cause Response

Dear Associate Administrator,

The purpose of this e-mail is to request that DOT-SP 7887 be kept in force as written. The Special Permit, previously DOT-E 7887 has been in place since 1978 and is used by many of us who enjoy hobbies including model rockets, motors and igniters.

To my knowledge, there has never been an incident involving the shipping and transporting of model rocket motors and igniters. Further I believe that shipping these products as "Explosives" will create unnecessary fear and difficulty for those handling, transporting, receiving, storing, selling and using these products.

After 33 years of use, the termination of the Special Permit is unwarranted and possibly damaging to an educational and recreational product that has an excellent record. In closing, I again request the Special Permit be kept in place as written.

- Your Name and Address





Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:26:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 10:31:42 AM EST by Boecker351]
Originally Posted By HenryReardon:
Originally Posted By Agilt:
this is the kind of stuff that happens when you have buildings worth of people sitting around with nothing important to do but needing to look busy

An underestimated but significant part of our troubles.


agreed.




eta: email sent.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:28:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By TrapperJohn4077:
Does this cover 350 Rocket through 455 Rocket motors? Or even the lil ones?
Is this simply an Oldsmobile prejudice?

http://image.carcraft.com/f/30430819+w750+st0/ccrp_1010_14_o+oldsmobile_455_big_block_engine_build+on_the_dyno.jpg


Only one person could be this diabolical

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:36:57 AM EST
Back in the 60s we could send the damned things through the mail.


I recall my opening my family POB and fishing out about 6 tubes of 3 motors each.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:37:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By GTLandser:
Is there a link to this on ROL or other hobbyist forums? This sounds like an issue where we need to get in contact with our senators and reps.

This is disappointing, but not surprising. Just like TSA, we are going after weapons, instead of terrorists. Except in this case, no one has even used hobby level rocketry for nefarious purposes.

The govt bureaucrats seem to think Bob the retired Lockheed engineer, or Frank the computer programmer, is going to help Akhmad, the lonely quiet guy from Pakistan with his Level III cert projects, just cause he seems like a nice young man?


The part in red is not quite true. As a very young man, i admit to taking great delight in using my model rockets for the sole purpose of making the old lady across the street shit her Depends onevery oppurtunity I got. She would scream bloody murder at my mother about it. My dad and Mr. Uncas, her husband, got almost as much a kick out of it as I did. I would get the symbolic fussing from Dad, while he was trying not to laugh out loud. Of course my mother was giving him the look that said " Don't you dare laugh and encourage him , but I think it's kinda funny too"
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:45:55 AM EST
Nobody needs to fly model rockets or R/C planes anyway. What are you all bitching about?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 10:50:17 AM EST
here is another solution in search of a problem
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:00:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 11:12:26 AM EST by Dru]
Sounds to me like they're simply 'Re-classifying' the material.... So instead of now being shipped, placarded & labeled under a 4.1 flammable solid they'll now be shipped under a 1.2 explosive....


In my world of hazmat... re-classifying a material, regardless if it's done byt the manufacture/shipper of the material or DOT is not that big of a deal.


And Op... If you knew anything of hazard classes, you would know Explosives are also divided up into 'Divisons' .... For Example: Division 1.1 – Explosives that have a mass explosion hazard, i.e. a mass explosion affects the entire load instantaneously.

Consumer Fireworks= Division 1.4 – Explosives that present minor explosion hazard. The explosive effects are largely confined to the package and no projection or fragments of appreciable size or range are expected. An external fire must not cause virtually instantaneous explosion of almost the entire contents of the package.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:02:45 AM EST
Once again, some nameless, faceless, unelected paper shuffling son of a bitch has decided to make himself look useful, by fucking with someone and fabricating some imaginary crisis over something so obscure and so harmless, that many people don't even know it exists. What would your Congressman say? "I don't know anything about that. I'll check into it. We don't have any involvement in those decisions." Fuck every last one of these bureaucratic, socialist, evil, pencil necked bastards, whose station in life depends on the importance of the asses they kiss, and the Departments and Agencies that they happily work for. Fucking skeeves.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:18:16 AM EST
What direct consequences will this ruling have for the end user should it occur?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:22:15 AM EST
Another example of controlling the citizens through regulation. Every administrator under Obama is going to get their opportunity to snatch a few more of our liberties. Rocketeers could be conservatives, therefore, potential threats and in need of control.

Of course the end-game is to control ammo sales and shipments.




Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:23:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By raven:
Nobody needs to fly model rockets or R/C planes anyway. What are you all bitching about?


Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:24:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
What direct consequences will this ruling have for the end user should it occur?


The best I can tell, absolutely none. It will cost the same to ship and uses the same restrictions and requirements to ship whether they be flammable solids or 1.2 explosives, which begs the question, why change the classification?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:29:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 11:40:45 AM EST by Dru]
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
What direct consequences will this ruling have for the end user should it occur?


The best I can tell, absolutely none. It will cost the same to ship and uses the same restrictions and requirements to ship whether they be flammable solids or 1.2 explosives, which begs the question, why change the classification?


Who knows!

I know my employers, they needed to ship some Class 4 Dangerous When Wet, UN 2988 on a plane to a customer (Which according to the DGR, is a no-no)... They had it re-classified to Class 3, UN 2985.... Just to be able to get it on a plane and across the big pond in a timely manner to the customer.

So who knows why... There ain't no telling!
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:37:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
What direct consequences will this ruling have for the end user should it occur?


The best I can tell, absolutely none. It will cost the same to ship and uses the same restrictions and requirements to ship whether they be flammable solids or 1.2 explosives, which begs the question, why change the classification?


Hmmm...Is their any route here they could take to effect a de facto ban without further legislation? Maybe re class to something more restrictive than 1.2?

Would this current proposal affect the item under state laws like in Ohio with regards to 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 items?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:54:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
What direct consequences will this ruling have for the end user should it occur?


The best I can tell, absolutely none. It will cost the same to ship and uses the same restrictions and requirements to ship whether they be flammable solids or 1.2 explosives, which begs the question, why change the classification?


Hmmm...Is their any route here they could take to effect a de facto ban without further legislation? Maybe re class to something more restrictive than 1.2?

Would this current proposal affect the item under state laws like in Ohio with regards to 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 items?


That I have no idea, it could be they are just going to incrementally make rocket engines more and more restricted until you can't get them (a de facto ban like you said). I have no idea other states laws but in Cali there in no law restricting the possession of explosives based on there class, the restrictions are based on the actual explosive. For example, small arms ammunition is class 1.3 and is perfectly legal to own, Black powder is class 1.1 and is also legal to own, RDX is class 1.1 but is a high explosive and is illegal to own without permits and an explosives magazine.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:56:44 AM EST
That sucks. Oh well, back to hybrid motors....... Ever see a salami used as fuel?
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