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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/22/2002 10:25:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:42:02 AM EDT
They looked like ProTec brand. [url]http://www.pro-tec.net/welcome.html[/url] Go to the BMX section and look at the CLASSIC Helmets.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:51:38 AM EDT
If I remember correctly, that was one of the problems in Black Hawk down. The hockey helmets didn't stop bullets and shrapnel. In the book, one Delta guy took a bullet to the head. His hockey helmet didn't do a thing.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 11:00:47 AM EDT
You do remember correctly Q-Man. In the book it specifically explained that the Delta SpecOps guys wore plastic hockey helmets instead of Kevlar ballistic helmets because of the weight savings and the fact that they figured they were much more likely to whack their head on something while executing a mission than they were to take a bullet or shrapnel in the same spot. At least one of the Delta guys found out the hard way the error in their logic that day. His hockey helmet was worthless when the SHTF.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:03:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:15:26 PM EDT
The kevlar PASGT helmet poses other problems: - It makes it harder to hear - It flops around too much - It can interfere with radio headsets
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:18:22 PM EDT
another problem with the kevlar-it does not necessarly stop bullets- I saw one at a range -it had been shot through several times with a AR.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:36:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:51:49 PM EDT
I second what bunghole said. Those helmets are just like what we use for whitewater and kayaking. idaho-ar15
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:54:32 PM EDT
This is one of those, "You don't wish you had it until it's too late" kinda things. Good protection, that is.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:00:11 PM EDT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, the Kevlar helmet is really only good for shrapnel and pistol calibers. I understand that 5.56 and 7.62 will both penetrate the helmet, so that Delta guy probably would died from the shot anyway.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:01:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DarkHelmet:
Originally Posted By Q-Man: If I remember correctly, that was one of the problems in Black Hawk down. The hockey helmets didn't stop bullets and shrapnel. In the book, one Delta guy took a bullet to the head. His hockey helmet didn't do a thing.
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That is correct. They are a compromise. They provide protection from the occasional bump and knock but very VERY little if any ballistic protection. But they are considerably lighter and tighter fitting than a USGI Kevlar. Imagine flying on the Little Birds as they did wearing a Kevlar. The air rushing into it at 50-80 knots would be like having a kite attached to your head. It would be ripping your head back from the air rushing into it. If you'd like to test... wear your Kevlar and drive down the road at about 55 or 60... then roll down the window and stick your head out.... [:D]
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In the airborne we used what we called "Rabbit Ears". They were 2 nylon, Velcro straps that were attached to the back screw and secured to the chin strap. This prevented the helmet from flying off while exiting the aircraft. Kind of tightened everything to the head. You wouldn't think it would work, but it did. I never had one fall or get blown off my head during a jump. The helmet worked good for those few occasions that you hit like a bag of brick and nailed your 5th point of contact to.:-)
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:05:18 PM EDT
This has led to the development and testing of a better helmet just for operators, I remember the testing at bragg during the early months of 2000, was a redesigned kevlar with attached mic/earphone, perm NVG mount ect. I think it is called the SPEARMICH or something like that.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:10:50 PM EDT
I tested a DXd PASGT helmet that one of my soldiers used as a chock block for a 5-ton truck. It won't stand up to a 5.56 from 25yds, so I wonder how it's gonna stop an AK. It was never meant for direct fire weapons, anyway. It was a shrapnel/spawl helmet desinged to protect against fragments.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:13:14 PM EDT
My last battalian commander was a fanatic about wearing the helmet and flak jacket. If we were not in the rack asleeep we were wearing the helmet and flak jacket. I hated the kevlar helmet! I saw lots of neck and scalp injuries caused by ill fitting kevlar.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:25:07 PM EDT
I've seen photo's of Russian Police wearing a bulletproof titanium cap that looked pretty compact. The padding is probably what adds the bulk to the kevlar, and the necessity of a one or two-sizes-fits all hat that's big enough for the biggest.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 3:33:01 PM EDT
Ahhh the wonderfull flak and helmet. Commonly refered to by grunt's as the Vest of death!! and the dome of doom!! Don't let the green grass fool ya!! 03 out!! [sniper]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 4:53:21 PM EDT
Force Recon is now using a MICH helmet (Modular Intergrated Communications Helmet). It uses a CGF Gallet Kevlar shell with a new suspension system and intergrates a Sordin headset. (Reportedly the Sordins were tougher than the Peltors.) The suspension is 4 point instead of 2 point like the PASGT and there are visco elastic pads velcroed inside. The pads are from Oregon Aero. The pads provide bump protection and conforms to the head. A lot more comfortable than the PASGT. An added plus if you work around water (like the Marines) is that the helmet floats. Don't know if Delta is using it. The helmet was, I think, originally designed for they SPEARS requirement. If you or your department want them, a couple of dealers can supply them. E-mail me for names. Frances PS If you want your Pro-Tech helmet to meet DOD jump standards, change the liner to the improved Oregon Aero liner. Again, more comfort and bump protection.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 4:56:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cleatus: another problem with the kevlar-it does not necessarly stop bullets- I saw one at a range -it had been shot through several times with a AR.
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exactly. We tested them and they did not stop .223 or 7.62 at all. They did stop most handgun rounds though.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 5:02:17 PM EDT
I have seen PASGTs hit by AK fire (7.62x39) twice and both times they stopped it. I do not know what the range was, but one of the bullets had the tip protruding into the interior of the helmet. I guess a couple more grains of powder and the wearer would have cashed in his SGLI. Just my experience. YMMV. Do not try this at home.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:30:13 PM EDT
The PASGT won't stop a direct shot from most rifles, but it will stop the odd round that's been slowed down by distance or by ricocheting or by penetrating another barrier or that impacts at an odd angle.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:47:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 7:47:38 PM EDT by REDHORSE]
Here is the new improved ballistic helmet [b]TC-2000[/b]. [url]http://www.lightfighter.com/item.html?PRID=1109960[/url]
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 8:22:39 PM EDT
I wonder how many kevlar helmets have 5.56 holes in them from "field tests". hee hee
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 8:52:16 PM EDT
hey Axel...WTF? theres no padding in a Kevlar. none, notta. some guys buy the foam donut at the PX but its pretty worthless. and they come in 3 sizes. heavy, heavier, and "jesus-christ-get-this-thing-off-me"
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 12:11:32 AM EDT
I dont know if the Delta use of hockey helmets is such a bad idea. A .22 magnum will penetrate a PAGST.
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 12:12:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: I have seen PASGTs hit by AK fire (7.62x39) twice and both times they stopped it. I do not know what the range was, but one of the bullets had the tip protruding into the interior of the helmet. I guess a couple more grains of powder and the wearer would have cashed in his SGLI. Just my experience. YMMV. Do not try this at home.
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BULLSHIT
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 5:32:28 AM EDT
HEAVY......Try going and picking up grandpa's WWII steal pot and liner. They did studies back in WWI and found that most fatal head injury occured as a result of artillery fragments...Thats why helmets in there modern form were adopted by most armies. Hey and in this bright new age of lazer range finding, air burst shoulder weapons the helmet might be a real good idea again.
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 4:00:30 PM EDT
Raven: The PASGT helmets were first used in combat by the 82d in Grenada. (Anyone else remember that far back and the big stink that some people made over US troops wearing Nazi helments?) In part probably because of the PR factor, there were some photos circulated of a PASGT with an AK round sticking out. The PASGT was credited with saving the soldier's life. Of course, the factor missing from the Grenada incident and the ones SF mentioned is just how far away the shooter was.
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 4:06:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DvlDog: theres no padding in a Kevlar. none, notta. some guys buy the foam donut at the PX but its pretty worthless.
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Correct. USMC Kevlars circa 1989-1993 had just a leather, canvas and steel clip suspension system. State of the art in 1942. I found the foam donut did offer a small amount of releief. My current LE issue kevlar does have foam padding in it. But it is still an uncomfortable beast and I refuse to wear it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 4:22:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By SF: I have seen PASGTs hit by AK fire (7.62x39) twice and both times they stopped it. I do not know what the range was, but one of the bullets had the tip protruding into the interior of the helmet. I guess a couple more grains of powder and the wearer would have cashed in his SGLI. Just my experience. YMMV. Do not try this at home.
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BULLSHIT
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Oh ye of little faith.... Anchorage to Atlanta. Transfer to Fayetteville. Take 95 bypass to Owen. Owen will eventually turn into the All American Highway. Get off on Gruber and make a left . Two lights and make a right onto Reiley. Ist Left is Ardennes. Make this left and go about 2 miles into Division area. On your right set back about 200 meters is the 82nd mueseum. Park in an approved spot, go inside and find the Grenada display. You will see a K pot with a 7.62X 39 mm projectile stuck in it, protruding through to the inside. Read soldiers statement that it was a direct shot. Fly back to Alaska, log onto internet and offer to kiss SF's ass for your rudeness and ignorance [:)]
Link Posted: 1/23/2002 6:36:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pdm:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By SF: I have seen PASGTs hit by AK fire (7.62x39) twice and both times they stopped it. I do not know what the range was, but one of the bullets had the tip protruding into the interior of the helmet. I guess a couple more grains of powder and the wearer would have cashed in his SGLI. Just my experience. YMMV. Do not try this at home.
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BULLSHIT
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Oh ye of little faith.... Anchorage to Atlanta. Transfer to Fayetteville. Take 95 bypass to Owen. Owen will eventually turn into the All American Highway. Get off on Gruber and make a left . Two lights and make a right onto Reiley. Ist Left is Ardennes. Make this left and go about 2 miles into Division area. On your right set back about 200 meters is the 82nd mueseum. Park in an approved spot, go inside and find the Grenada display. You will see a K pot with a 7.62X 39 mm projectile stuck in it, protruding through to the inside. Read soldiers statement that it was a direct shot. Fly back to Alaska, log onto internet and offer to kiss SF's ass for your rudeness and ignorance [:)]
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PDM: Thank you. I did not say that I would put one on and let someone take a shot at it with their AK, or that they would stop every round, from any range and direction. But I have seen that they have stopped 7.62x39 rounds. On the other hand, it provides much better ballistic protection than the M1 skull underneath it. Exactly where one of them resides. 82nd Abn Div CG passed that one around to my Infantry Officer Advanced Course class in 1983 and told us the story. I touched it. The other one was in El Salvador. Similar scenario. Guess that one was BS too. Oh ye of little faith....
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:58:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 11:59:52 AM EDT by DIVARTY]
Originally Posted By Frances: Raven: The PASGT helmets were first used in combat by the 82d in Grenada. (Anyone else remember that far back and the big stink that some people made over US troops wearing Nazi helments?) In part probably because of the PR factor, there were some photos circulated of a PASGT with an AK round sticking out. The PASGT was credited with saving the soldier's life. Of course, the factor missing from the Grenada incident and the ones SF mentioned is just how far away the shooter was.
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Yes, you are right. I've seen it first hand. It's on display at the 82nd museum at Ft. Bragg. The helmet, not the picture. If I remember right it enters through the left rear and is sticking out of the left front top of the helmet. The kevlar material is frayed around the slug. It's a hell of a thing to see.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 12:11:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 12:12:28 PM EDT by DIVARTY]
Originally Posted By pdm:
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By SF: I have seen PASGTs hit by AK fire (7.62x39) twice and both times they stopped it. I do not know what the range was, but one of the bullets had the tip protruding into the interior of the helmet. I guess a couple more grains of powder and the wearer would have cashed in his SGLI. Just my experience. YMMV. Do not try this at home.
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BULLSHIT
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Oh ye of little faith.... Anchorage to Atlanta. Transfer to Fayetteville. Take 95 bypass to Owen. Owen will eventually turn into the All American Highway. Get off on Gruber and make a left . Two lights and make a right onto Reiley. Ist Left is Ardennes. Make this left and go about 2 miles into Division area. On your right set back about 200 meters is the 82nd mueseum. Park in an approved spot, go inside and find the Grenada display. You will see a K pot with a 7.62X 39 mm projectile stuck in it, protruding through to the inside. Read soldiers statement that it was a direct shot. Fly back to Alaska, log onto internet and offer to kiss SF's ass for your rudeness and ignorance [:)]
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Those directions brought me back to the good old times at Bragg. As I read it I was picturing the roads and sights on the way. I wish I was back at Bragg. Airborne all the way. Keep your feet and knees together and your chin in your chest. Slip right for a soft landing and don't hit you 5th point of contact when you hit the ground. Pull the release for your risers , get your weapon out of the case, and unleash your ruck. Find the rally point. In my case, find your 102, 105mm howitzer, cut it from the platform, cut the hummer from it's platform, hook it up to the humvee and leave the DZ to set up your firing line and dig in. By now it's just about sunrise so you need to stand down and hope you don't fall a sleep while in the prone position or your fox hole if you had time to dig it. After sunrise, either open you MRE or get in line for the "K" rations. Then as you sit down to eat you hear,"FIRE MISSION" and there goes your chance to eat. Oh the good old times.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:37:29 PM EDT
DIVARTY: Continue down Ardennes to the end and make a right on Mckellars. Take this for about 3 miles until you hit Lamont and make a right. Go about 2 miles to Manchester and Make a left. About 5 miles on your left is Sciliy DZ. Jump in..... and walk back[:D]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:54:00 PM EDT
pdm: McKellar's Rd. is blocked at Lamont for security reasons. Go out Longstreet and turn right on Lamont, then left on Manchester. (That is on my way home every day). DIVARTY: "K Rations?" How old are you? Do you mean "Tray Rations", or T-Rats instead? [;)]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 7:05:39 PM EDT
[img]http://media.bigstep.com/shop/4/59/4417594/upload/1007505288119.jpg[/img] [img]http://media.bigstep.com/shop/4/59/4417594/upload/1007505288267.jpg[/img] CGF Gallet TC-2000 helmet. It is the ballistic proition of the Modular Integrated Combat Helmet Program. High Performance Tactical Gear! [url]www.Lightfighter.com[/url]
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:32:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: pdm: McKellar's Rd. is blocked at Lamont for security reasons. Go out Longstreet and turn right on Lamont, then left on Manchester. (That is on my way home every day). DIVARTY: "K Rations?" How old are you? Do you mean "Tray Rations", or T-Rats instead? [;)]
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D'oh! Ya you're right. "T" rats. Sorry, not every detail makes it with age. Let's put it this way. When I was in we still used the "Y" suspenders for the LBE. The 82nd was using the 102, 105mm Howitzer and we ate from the first generation of the brown MRE's. Even before the hot sauce was added. I got out about 6 months before desert storm. The real pisser though was that when I transferred to HSB 3/319th F.A. from Alpha BTRY 3/319th, A BTRY was on alert status and went to Panama. For some reason God didn't want me in those situations. My Basic and A.I.T. at FT. Sill, OK was served in the old WW II barracks. We were the last BTRY to use them. A long room lined with bunks on either side and a floor to wax in the middle. Not like the pukes who went to what we called Hollywood and had a room with only 3 or 4 men each. Jump school was done in Delta Co., "the Rock".
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:36:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pdm: DIVARTY: Continue down Ardennes to the end and make a right on Mckellars. Take this for about 3 miles until you hit Lamont and make a right. Go about 2 miles to Manchester and Make a left. About 5 miles on your left is Sciliy DZ. Jump in..... and walk back[:D]
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If I drive there, how do I "Jump in"?
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:44:31 AM EDT
i dont know much about kevlar but i believe one of the acceptance criteria for the m16/.223 was the ability to penetrate both sides of a steel helmet (and presumabley the skull inside it). i think helmets are intended to stop fragments and MAYBE pistol rounds, but not high power rifle ammo. correct me if i'm wrong, it's obvious some of you know lots more about this than i ever will.
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:51:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2002 6:51:46 AM EDT by BURN]
In basic I got into a verbal arguement with the guy in the hasty next to me....i was wearing my kevlar so when he got up and sneaked to my position and butt-stroked me with his m16..the kevlat saved me a cuncusion and the blow didnt even stun me ...conclusion...even if it wont stop a bullet it will protec from other crap im a firm beleaver in kevlar's......in a rural setting i can see how artillery fire can be dangerous (IE: shrapnel) but in the new urban fighting (there will still be RPG's and grenades I know) I think light protection of the head from bumps and knocks is much more of a danger......
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 6:52:45 AM EDT
Jeez, It dosn't sound like that helmets and vest provied that much protection! Hopful new materials such spider silk and metalic foams will yeild an armor that will actual stop rifle rounds without weighing a metric ton!
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