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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/14/2006 4:07:35 PM EDT
There are many opinions about firearm ergonomics, however I don't know if there is a clear definition. Many people will trash a certain rifle because it has "bad ergos" or "ergos suck" Well, why does it suck? Is it the length of pull? Where the controls are located? how the grip or gun feels?

It is all subjective than definitive.

And what rifles do you feel have bad ergonomics?

So far very few people can explain why a HK rifle or Steyr AUG has bad ergonomics.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:09:20 PM EDT
Overall feel, combined with ease of operation, ease of mag changes, etc. Very subjective. To me a standard AR has great ergonomics because that is what I started shooting with and used for six years in the military.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:10:15 PM EDT
1. how comfortable is the rifle to hold, shoulder, and shoot. for example, rifles with pistol grips are generally considered more ergonomic than thoes without because a pistol grip allows the rifle to be held with the wrist in a more natural position.

2. how fast and easy the rifle is to operate. how easily and quickly the charging handle, magazine release, etc can be operated. bullpups like the AUG are sometimes said to be unergonomic because the magazine is located farther away from the shooter's non-dominant hand, so reloads tend to take longer. also, on bullpups many of the controls are located in difficult to access positions for lefthanded shooters.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:18:38 PM EDT
When I use the term, it is purely a term that describes the way that a rifle personally "fits" me and my body and preferences.

For example, the HK G3 just doesn't fit me very well, and it is difficult for me to shoot it accurately without having a bruised cheekbone by the end of the day. Not ergonomic for me.

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:25:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 4:26:38 PM EDT by DonS]
HK91 bad ergos:

Poor balance point.

Crappy trigger pull.

Recoil transferred over short time period, making for greater perceived recoil.

V rear sight on same optical plane as peep.

Can't speak for the AUG. I tend to view lots of things as ergos: sights, sight radius, trigger, balance, safety, mag release, grips, recoil, and so on. Proof is in the pudding: the ability to engage several targets very quickly is the bottom line.

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:36:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
It is all subjective than definitive.



Not all of it.

Put an AK and an M4 in 100 peoples' hands for the first time, and all 100 of them will have a more difficult time operating the safety on the AK than on the M4. You could even quantify it, by measuring the amount of time it takes for them to operate the safety on each rifle.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 4:46:48 PM EDT
For a good definition of Ergonomics in a firearm, do some research on how the high $$ custom shotgun makers work.

Basically, they fit the stock angle, length of pull, drop, offset, etc. etc. to the individual. When the owner shoulders the shotgun, his eye is in the perfect position to follow the target.

Rifle ergonomics are similar--when I am looking at a rifle, I shoulder it WITH MY EYES CLOSED, and see where it naturally falls. If it is close to the proper position (for eye relief and where it should be pointing), then it has good overall ergonomics for me. I then work the controls (be it a bolt gun, semi-auto, etc.). If you have to strain to reach the safety or operating mechanism (Bolt/carrier), or your trigger finger hits the trigger poorly (all the way back at the knuckle or just barely at the tip), then it has poor ergonomics. The AR is nice, as you can get lots of aftermarket stuff to raise/lower sights, change length of pull, grip, etc--so you can custom fit the rifle to yourself.



AFARR
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:05:16 PM EDT
For starters…

The grip should be comfortable and not pinch or restrict hand motion much. But it should be designed so that your hand can naturally take the same grip every time.

The trigger should be easy to reach with the index finger.

The safety should be in a position where it can be easily manipulated without taking your hands out of the firing position.

The magazine release should be in a position where it is easy to operate, preferably with the right hand because the left will be busy grabbing a spare magazine.

The bolt should hold open on the last shot and it should be easy to release after a reload.

The charging handle should be easy to manipulate.

The stock comb should be at the proper level to allow a good cheek weld when using the sights. The stock shouldn’t be too long or too short for the shooter.

The rifle should balance well.

A lot of these things depend on the individual shooter. And with so many possible AR configurations it’s very possible to find one that fails in a couple areas. As a general rule though the AR has as good of ergonomics as you can find.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:31:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thuban:
As a general rule though the AR has as good of ergonomics as you can find.




A side charging AR would have everything perfect. I know that they can be found now, but I wish it had been designed that way, I won't use a proprietary system with limited parts access on my AR.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:36:38 PM EDT
It's REALLY simple.

"How your gun fits you!"

That's it. If an H&K 91 works well for you, but an AR-15 with all the latest in stuff doesn't then the H&K 91 has good ergonomics as far as you're concerned. Beyond that, who really cares.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:28:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paradude54:
It's REALLY simple.

"How your gun fits you!"

That's it. If an H&K 91 works well for you, but an AR-15 with all the latest in stuff doesn't then the H&K 91 has good ergonomics as far as you're concerned. Beyond that, who really cares.




Thanks Paradude,

I feel the same way.

Ergonomics to me is defined how a firearm fits you. The only reason why I care, is because too many ARFCOMMERS are trashing firearms that they have never shot, or held because of their understanding of ergonomics.

I like Rifleman2000's answer that the AR15 has perfect ergonomics because the AR15/M16 was the rifle that he was trained with, and used for six years. And that is what everyone feels, they like the weapon they are most familar with.

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