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Posted: 1/1/2003 10:34:30 AM EST
Okay, let's try this one again without the personal attacks okay? Liberals with guns need not participate.
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-: (snip) huh? Or, could it be possible that we can't always assure our own safety and that we daily rely on the forebearance of others for our lives? (snip) If you think that you can assure your safety as a total individual, with no help from anyone else, such a simple mindset will quickly lead you to hypocrisy. No man is an island.
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What is this crap about depending on other people for your own protection? Why, then, is it not okay for people to depend on the [b]State[/b] for protection? Guess you just don't see your hypocrisy...
Originally Posted By Barrel-BurnerM2HB: Not coming to the rescue of someone in need is exactly whats wrong with this country. Not the only thing but a big one. Too many people just turn their heads and say it's not their problem. Well, someday it could be. I am just a military cop but I treat everyone with respect until they start becoming disrespectful. If an individual wants to ruin his/her career or life over a speeding ticket so be it. I will always come to the aide of anyone that needs it. Regardless of possible legal ramifications.
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You are so right, but do you honestly expect people to come to the aid of strangers when they can be [b]prosecuted[/b] for doing so, or worse, shot by responding officers? That's what the problem is with this country: laws that discourage self-defense of others and cops that shoot first. You're saying you would do it and risk the consequences, or even your very life, for a stranger? All the responses here deal with people coming to aid of people or cops that they [b]know[/b]. Nobody has as yet stated that they would defend a complete stranger with a firearm.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:36:11 AM EST
I take it you don't consider yourself a member of the militia.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:39:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:40:15 AM EST
ND state law says that it is lawful to use deadly force to defend yourself, someone else or an officer of the law from death or great physical harm. Maybe ND law was set up by people who didn't need to cover their asses all the time and would help others out. Think about that for a minute Kroagnon.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:41:34 AM EST
Let me be second.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:41:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 10:43:41 AM EST by shotar]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:42:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:47:13 AM EST
Let me ask you this: Who is the LAST to arrive at a crime scene? Perpetrator, Victim or Officer? And why do we call the Police? Because they are the ones with the guns. Now it also depends on WHO we are saving? Woman about to be raped. You witness this going on and you have a firearm. I would definitely use a firearm to save her. Man just robbed a store, bunch of kids tackle him and beat the shit out of him to no end... I doubt it... STRONGLY.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:49:22 AM EST
I would defend a complete stranger with a firearm. Damn the consequences. I would rather spend a few years in jail and know I saved someones life, then spend the rest of my life watching them die over and over when all I had to do was cinch up my nuts and prevent it. And I do not think YOU see your hypocrisy. The whole point of this country is to help and defend one another. Liberty doesn't mean "remove all decency". It means take responsibility and do the right thing, even if the consequences are not exactly enjoyable. It means to go about your life, and when you see someone violating anothers liberty, you go DEFEND their LIBERTY.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:49:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:51:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:51:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 12:43:40 PM EST by DScottHewitt]
Thread from Brothers of the Shield: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=160921[/url] Scott
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:51:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By DigDug: ND state law says that it is lawful to use deadly force to defend yourself, someone else or an officer of the law from death or great physical harm. Maybe ND law was set up by people who didn't need to cover their asses all the time and would help others out. Think about that for a minute Kroagnon.
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Sounds great to me. Don't get me wrong, I agree with many of you on [b]wanting[/b] to defend someone. You make me out like somebody who couldn't care less if somebody gets assaulted right in front of my house or out in the big bad world ("Corporal Upham" was one reference). You couldn't be more false. But given the state of the laws and the probability of being shot by the police I dare say few people would actually do it. I'm not afraid of being shot by a perp but by a cop who would get away with it legally - and if I shot back I'd be charged with a crime!
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:54:37 AM EST
I wouldn't think twice about defending a complete stranger with a firearm. What kind of a pussy would just stand by and let something bad happen to someone just because they didn't know them? I came to the defense of a kid once, probably 10-12 yo, from an abusive father. We were out fishing and they were sitting down from us. The dad had been yelling and cussing at the kid all day and then he got his line tangled on something. The dad commenced to yelling and screaming and wildly beating the kid. I calmly walked over to the guy and told him flat out that if he laid another hand on the kid in front of me that we would get sideways. He was speechless and just stared. I took down his license plate as he packed up and I gave it to the police when I got back in town. I wish I could have done more for the kid, but what can you do? That was one son of a bitch that I wouldn't have thought twice about shooting had it come down to it.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:57:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 10:58:59 AM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:58:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:11:49 AM EST
For me, it boils down to a question of conscience. If I intervene to help somebody and get arrested, convicted, and sentenced for my efforts, I have the opportunity to appeal the conviction. If I stand idly by and let somebody get hurt or killed when I could step in and stop it, I've got the rest of my life to live with that guilt. There is no appeal for a guilty conscience.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:12:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By shotar: Doing ones best with whatever tools are on hand to defend someone under criminal attack is simply a matter of decency. I suppose I would even come to your aid if it was needed although I might later find it distasteful.
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But my defense plan doesn't envision any help of any kind, so I don't expect any help that wouldn't come anyway. If I can't defend myself effectively I die, that's how it works in life.
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: What's interesting (and sad) is the original topic came up in the Brothers of the Shield forum. Coming to the aid of an officer under attack. And some people actually seemed to be in favor of just sitting and watch it happen.
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An interesting read and yet another reason why defending a stranger with a firearm is discouraged: personal liability in the form of lawsuits. Defending yourself from a lawsuit requires money, often lots of money. Has there ever been a documented case where a victim ever helped out with the legal payments?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:12:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:14:25 AM EST
I would defend another person's life in a second. I would employ my firearm to do so. To NOT do everything in your power to prevent the injury or death of another when you are clearly ABLE to do so, smacks of the rankest cowardice or a distinct and reprehensible lack of concern for your fellow man. In either case, the person who walks away or watches safely from afar is a blot on our society and definitely NOT one whom I would want in a fighting hole with me. Clearly that person's self interest is placed so high on the totem pole as to put all around him at risk when the chips are down. Many years ago, my brother, in his mid-twenties, watched as a large doberman savaged a young woman. I would have drawn my pistol and shot the mutt dead on the spot. I would have done the same if the perp had been human rather than canine. My brother is a disgusting coward (And a flaming liberal anti) who has always run from a conflict of any sort. He knows it and so do the rest of us. That is how I would catagorize those who, "...don't want to get involved" in order to safe themselves from personal injury or legal proceedings. In my county, I suspect that the sheriff would look with favor on my actions if I wasted a perp in the act of a violent crime on a fellow citizen. In any case, I know that my need to protect human life would quickly overcome any nascent fears I might harbor of legal or personal retribution for my actions. I don't consider taking such action as necessary vigilantism either...rather the mark of a good society. This is what I was taught by my parents and my leaders in the military. That is one of several reasons I choose to carry a firearm with me at all times. Finally...I DON'T depend on the state for my protection. That is why I do carry a firearm. Hey...Kroagnon...I'd even come to your aid. Go figure. [:X*]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:14:35 AM EST
I would like to think that I am a good enough person to come to the aid of those that can't defend themselves. Two of my best friends are police officers. I would hate to think that if they needed help the only people around would think as Kroagnon does. I bet the family of this girl wishes someone had helped her. [url]cspd.ci.college-station.tx.us/events_news/02-014298u.pdf[/url]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:18:24 AM EST
Kroagnon, All the people who have died defending America must have been real chumps then. What was in it for them? I guess they weren't looking out for number one.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:23:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:32:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I carry for defense of my family, my self, and my friends, and rank thier safety in that order. That is the only reason I carry. In todays society, there are only certain situations worth risking my future on. Help a stranger, end up being sued or dead. The only other situation is if a LEO specificly asks me to help..... once they do that in this state I am entitled to the same medical and legal coverage they have from the government. Winning the gunfight is only the first step on a looooonnnngggg battle that will be fought in the courts. Before you pull your weapon, you had better be prepared to realise that once you pull that trigger you may lose everything you own, and possibly your freedom or life, for doing what you think is teh right thing. Each person who carries must ask themselves eaxactly who they are willing to go through this for. For me, it is family, myself, and close friends. Nobody else is worth sacrificing my or my families future, period.
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I feel exactly the same way.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:35:57 AM EST
I would most likely defend someone if I felt it reasonable; it would be a situational decision obviously.] However, if you don't want to risk your life for someone, that is your choice. You are NOT obligated to be your brother's keeper. But it just may be a good idea.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:40:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:44:54 AM EST
"If I can't defend myself effectively I die, that's how it works in life." how old are you?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:13:32 PM EST
Guarantee me full and total protection from civil suit by the turd's family and I would not hesitate to use deadly force to protect a stranger. Otherwise forget it. If you use deadly force to protect yourself or your family when it is perfectly justified under criminal law you are still going to get sued in civil court. But in the case of protecting myself or my family I would accept that as part of the price for survival. It makes no difference that you were in deadly peril. Some scumbag of a civil lawyer is going to represent the family of the person you shot and try for some big money. He will paint you as a vigillanty that was carrying a gun and just looking for someone to shoot. And represent the dead thug as a model citizen who was on his way to bible study when you wrongfully shot him. They will pay everyone from his neighbors to his families church members to testify to his good character. Why risk being sued motherless for a total stranger? Who is going to help you find a new job when your employer finds some reason to let you go due to pressure from political correct types after you cap someone? Who will provide for your familie's future wellbeing when you are totally broke from being dragged through the civil court system? Until the civil court system is fixed I will consider the use of deadly force to protect a stranger as the height of foolishness. The one exception would be if directed by a police officer to assist him. In that situation I would not hesitate. If the officer was unable to ask for that assistance I would just have to swear later that he in fact did ask. Believe me when I tell you that I know how police reports are written.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:23:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: City Ordinance, Arlington, Texas: Section 1.04 Refusing to Assist a Peace Officer A person commits an offense if he knowingly or intentionally refuses to assist a person he knows to be a peace officer from making an arrest, conduct a search, prevent an escape or suppress any disturbance when requested to do so by a peace officer who meets with resistance in discharging his duties.
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I wonder when this ordinance was enacted and is even enforced today. Are there any ordinances that makes this a Catch-22 (aka if you use force you can be criminally liable for excessive force, etc)?
Originally Posted By LWilde: I would defend another person's life in a second. I would employ my firearm to do so. To NOT do everything in your power to prevent the injury or death of another when you are clearly ABLE to do so, smacks of the rankest cowardice or a distinct and reprehensible lack of concern for your fellow man. In either case, the person who walks away or watches safely from afar is a blot on our society and definitely NOT one whom I would want in a fighting hole with me. Clearly that person's self interest is placed so high on the totem pole as to put all around him at risk when the chips are down.
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But if your financial situation is such that you can either support your family or defend yourself in court, what choice would you make? And if you go to jail what would happen with your family? See, there are so many things that can go wrong with an impulsive decision. Okay, we have some people that state they would risk their livelihoods to defend strangers. BUT it seems that you are all rural folks where there is significantly different enforcement of laws then there are in the city. How many are city folks?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:25:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:27:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:31:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By DigDug: Kroagnon, All the people who have died defending America must have been real chumps then. What was in it for them? I guess they weren't looking out for number one.
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Just what the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you actually trying to compare this topic with soldiers fighting in a war zone? For starters they were not subject to the kind of liability "ordinary citizens" like us are. Clarify this statement because as it stands it is totally irrelevant.
Originally Posted By shotar: That not withstanding, note to self. Kroagan neither wants nor needs any help if he's caught in a bad situation.
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I may very well need it in a given situation but I wouldn't expect you or any other stranger to come to my aid because it wouldn't happen.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:46:34 PM EST
SGB "If your parents didn't raise you with the answer that question No one here can help you. Sorry..........very very sorry." Who appointed you as spokesperson for everyone here? To answer your question, my parents did not raise a fool.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:48:10 PM EST
On that link I posted for the similat topic from Brothers of the Shield: Some localities (here in Virginia) promote their officers doing the following: 1) Telling citizens they will lose their gun if they help a police officer 2) Telling citizens that they have been trained to shoot armed civilians on sight 3) Telling citizens they have been trained to refuse help if they are being murdered All that is really sad. I can see people being reluctant to help if they live in a locality with the police taught that mindset..... Scott
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:56:04 PM EST
Kroagnon, It is obvious that if the founding fathers of these United States had had your attitude, we'd all be saying God save the queen (king) right now. I can't risk loosing my farm and income by rebelling over something as small as a little tea tax...
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:00:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner: SGB "If your parents didn't raise you with the answer that question No one here can help you. Sorry..........very very sorry." Who appointed you as spokesperson for everyone here? To answer your question, my parents did not raise a fool.
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I wouldn't call you a fool, but I definately can't call you a person of strong moral character.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:02:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 1:07:18 PM EST by Hawkeye]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:08:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 1:11:01 PM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:11:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By DigDug: It is obvious that if the founding fathers of these United States had had your attitude, we'd all be saying God save the queen (king) right now. I can't risk loosing my farm and income by rebelling over something as small as a little tea tax...
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Uh, no, no, no, you're not going to label me an unpatriotic Communist. I will gladly jump into any armed struggle against a tyrannical US government with the rest of you regardless of the personal or legal consequences, but I won't do it if I'm the only one. Just say the word. That situation would be far more important that one's own personal life. I doubt very much you can state the same thing. You still haven't clarified your earlier statement. Too scared to back it up?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:59:21 PM EST
Kroagnon, What do I have to be scared of from you? You can read, I assume (might be a bad assumption). People fighting for this country have died saving people's lives and liberty they have never seen or met. You on the otherhand wouldn't cross the street to help someone getting beaten or worse. You wouldn't do this because you might get sued and loose all your money. How shallow is that? How pathetic is that? Have sad is that? It's not my problem, so I'll just turn away. Pathetic.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 2:39:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 2:50:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: I carry for defense of my family, my self, and my friends, and rank thier safety in that order. That is the only reason I carry. In todays society, there are only certain situations worth risking my future on. Help a stranger, end up being sued or dead (if you have the ability to retreat, and choose not to, you have upped the danger to yourself and removed yourself from a position of being able to defend your family if they are with you). help a cop, end up getting shot by other cops (when the police are answering an officer down, anyone they see in plain clothes armed is going down). The only other situation is if a LEO specificly asks me to help..... once they do that in this state I am entitled to the same medical and legal coverage they have from the government. Winning the gunfight is only the first step on a looooonnnngggg battle that will be fought in the courts. Before you pull your weapon, you had better be prepared to realise that once you pull that trigger you may lose everything you own, and possibly your freedom or life, for doing what you think is teh right thing. Each person who carries must ask themselves eaxactly who they are willing to go through this for. For me, it is family, myself, and close friends. Nobody else is worth sacrificing my or my families future, period.
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I'm forced to agree 100% with Garand Shooter.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:03:21 PM EST
a few years ago.. on a lake far, far away.. we were loading the boat at the ramp, when at a campsite next to the ramp a guy around 6'3 250lbs got out of a car with a ball bat (wooden) and hit a guy at the campsite once... right before the 2nd hit..the ruger came out..from the boat console. i jacked the slide and said "drop the bat" he looked up at me and IMMEDIATELY dropped the bat when he saw a very serious person..aiming a 9mm at his X. my friends said the look on his face was priceless and a look that they would never forget. if a person, any person..takes on the responsiblity of carrying a weapon for self-defense. he or she carries a moral obligation to protect ANY individual that is in danger of physical harm. thats what seperates humans..from animals lower on the down the genus chart. its called MORAL RESPONSIBILITY. i question the rationality and testical characteristics of MAN..who would say differently. just my opinion.. i had a girlfriend that was stabbed in the face in college and i wish someone had been able to help her out.. she lived..with a couple of plastic surgeries..is back to normal.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:16:08 PM EST
Without question I would indeed defend a third party person with my firearm. It is for the very simple reason that [b]it's the right thing to do.[/b] Perhaps one day of of my family members or friends (or myself) might need help. I would hope that another decent pistol packin' citizen would help them/me. CMOS
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:24:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:45:25 PM EST
What I find absolutely amazing is the fact that some people who have spoken out here think more about the fact that they may get sued and MAYBE lose some money, than they do about helping out a FELLOW human being. Some of you people are very sad indeed [:(] What if the person you failed to help out (who died because of your lack of involvement) turned out to be a relative of someone you know, a neighbor that you didn't recognize, or any one of a million other variables? How can you HONESTLY say that you could look yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life and feel you did nothing wrong? If you hear a neighbor screaming in the middle of the night, what would you do, roll over and go back to sleep, because you are worried about being sued? And the point about being shot by any LEO's coming to back-up the call, is utter nonsene. What are the odds, about 1 in a billion? Have you actually been in any high adreneline situations? The senses become very high and things DO slow down in your mind. The overall view is very accurate. What I have seen written here by a select few is absolutely pathetic.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 5:45:53 PM EST
Help a stranger, end up being sued or dead
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Or in jail even if you do what any reasonable person would consider is the right thing to do. South Carolina, and as I understand it several other states, uses a "stand in the shoes" (also called "alter ego") defense doctrine. In other words, if you intervene on behalf of someone, then legally, you are treated just as the person you are protecting. From one textbook I have, "[if the person you are defending] had the right to defend himself, then the intervening party is also protected by that right. If, however, the party had no right to use force...then the intervening party will also assume the liability of the person on whose behalf he interfered." SC also adds a "without legal fault" clause to the defense of others law. The person you are defending must be without fault in bringing on the situation. The instructor of our CCW class gave several examples he personally saw where men, who had come to the aid of woman, ended-up in jail in South Carolina, because the person they were defending were not without fault in the situation (e.g. started the argument, didn't retreat, were legally drunk, were mentally ill, etc.). Legally speaking, it is very risky in some states to defend someone else. With that said, I'd still do it, because how would you live with yourself if you didn't and should have?z
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 5:46:32 PM EST
Kroagnon, you failed to respond in the original thread. Let's not let this get too far from what you said about the type of person you are which is what opened this can of worms... Originally Posted By Kroagnon: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By crumabn: since when is it not every citizen's responsibility to defend or protect our fellow americans? Police officer or not (most of which are good- take off the tin foil hat!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since when IS it your responsibility to protect others, especially strangers? It's every individual's own responsibility for their own safety - or don't you people believe your own arguments for concealed carry laws? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By FiveO: I see your point... Hell, why jump in if you see a woman being attacked, she may be a bitch or laughed at your advances one night. Pathetic comment. Pathetic mindset. Pathetic. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And a pathetic response from you. I'll ask it again: why would you come to the cop's aid when he and his backup will order you to drop your weapon or just shoot you right there? Why would you put yourself in that position? So none of you have ever paid attention to the real life stories told in this forum on this very subject? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My reply: ARDOC stated "My first reaction would be to help the officer with my weapon. Regardless I dont think I could sit there and watch an officer get gunned down." Says alot about him that that was HIS FIRST REACTION! He never said it was his RESPONSIBILITY. Some people RISE to the occasion, some slither under a rock and make excuses. Shit, help the guy. When backup arrives put your gun down and your hands up, or get on the fing ground. Are you afraid of getting your shirt dirty? You are talking about a man's life. But hey, if your position is "every man for himself, screw anyone else" then have a good life, Lone Ranger. Your first response is "Fuck that cop. He may be a JBT." Plus your quote, "Since when IS it your responsibility to protect others, especially strangers? It's every individual's own responsibility for their own safety ..." says alot about you too Bud. I say again, "PATHETIC." (DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: NOTE TO MODS; I AM REFERRING TO HIS ATTITUDE, NOT HIM.)
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:00:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 7:15:04 PM EST by MaverickMkii]
I think some people are just being very realistic under current stupid circumstances that politicians and lawyers created. I won't say anything bad at them. Because I trust if not for those crazy law suits, they would certainly help any people being harmed in their sight. That said, I will gladly help if I have my firearm in my possession. But I would make sure of this - A person that I'm helping is going to live if I help him/her. I don't want to get into any damned lawsuits if I effectively have saved no one's life. A person that I'm determined to shoot to stop... has got to be lying down on the floor quietly without any movement. I don't want any rhetoric perp's parents crying over the court in order to sue me. One thing I've learned from Gun board is that when you are determined to shoot someone, its shoot to stop for police and shoot to kill for us. And no sir, I don't want media reporting fine citizens like you or me "a person charged with murder with deadly assualt weapon (AR-15 or pistols)" crap. They will deliberately omit "while trying to rescue an downed officer". [Edited for grammar and replaced word "dead"]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:32:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 9:20:24 PM EST
I ... do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God.
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I feel this oath includes the implied task of defending the *people* of the united states, whether I know them personally or not.
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