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Posted: 9/14/2005 2:44:58 PM EDT
It's at $7,960,479,899,481.68 now!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEEE­EEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Look at 'er go!

link
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:52:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 2:53:03 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]
Come on, guys! It's almost up to $27,000 each!

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:53:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:00:14 PM EDT
Relax, I'll write a check tomorrow. How many 0s?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:01:20 PM EDT
What do you propose we do about it?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:01:27 PM EDT
It doesnt matter how high it goes we will never pay it back anyways...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:02:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:04:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 3:05:03 PM EDT by kill-9]
How does this actually impact the economy?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:05:57 PM EDT
Pfft. Debt alarmists.

G
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?



get out of Iraq would be a good starter. What is it, a billion a day
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:09:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kill-9:
How does this actually impact the economy?



Government has to print more money and therefore increases inflation (your dollar buys less)
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?



get out of Iraq would be a good starter. What is it, a billion a day



Yep, I figured that was were this was heading...............nowhere legitimate.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:23:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:26:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 3:27:33 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



DING! DING! DING!


Just like any successful household.


ETA: Oh, shit...that's hilarious. I typed that before it really registered that you are Va_Dinger...professional dinger.


Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:27:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:27:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I'd be curious to see the breakdown (pardon the expression) of where the debt lies.
Foreign debt
US bank held debt
US citizen debt, etc.



I read the other day that less than $2 Tril. is foreign debt
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:27:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 3:29:00 PM EDT by p331083]
Question; What happens if the government was to some how pay that bill? I know some goes to other countries but what happens to all the rest? Would they give it to? 4 trillion dollar tax refund?

I mean, if they are basically borrowing most of the money from themselves, how do they go in debt?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:28:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 3:29:50 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?



get out of Iraq would be a good starter. What is it, a billion a day



Yep, I figured that was were this was heading...............nowhere legitimate.



I'm not saying that's my idea but why is that not legitimate?

I'll tell you what's "not legitimate". Continuing to accumulate debt like this. It can't go on without leading to hard times.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:31:42 PM EDT
Don't worry, we can just print more $$$$.

Anyone have the photo of a 1 dollar bill and have it broken down to where most of it goes. IE probably 60% of all income goes to pay off the interest of that 8 trillion.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:33:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7:
Don't worry, we can just print more $$$$.

Anyone have the photo of a 1 dollar bill and have it broken down to where most of it goes. IE probably 60% of all income goes to pay off the interest of that 8 trillion.



And eventually we'd need wheelbarrows to transport enough cash to the store to buy groceries.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:48:58 PM EDT
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:50:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:50:43 PM EDT
So?

And your point is? <<yawn>>

Prioities...priorities...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:51:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 3:55:02 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By LWilde:
So?

And your point is? <<yawn>>

Prioities...priorities...



Yawn? This is better than a lot of the crap in GD.

Yawn? Give me a break, this is juicy shit, man. You know it is...or why did you post?



ETA: Check this shit out

Grim financial statement

To bring attention to the problem, USA TODAY prepared a consolidated financial statement for taxpayers, similar to what corporations give shareholders. The newspaper totaled federal, state and local government liabilities, taken from official documents.

Key findings:

•Total hidden debt. Federal, state and local governments today have debts and "unfunded liabilities" of $53 trillion, or $473,456 per household. An unfunded liability is the difference, valued in today's dollars, between what current law requires the government to pay and what current law provides in projected tax revenue.

•Social Security. The retirement program has $12.7 trillion in obligations it cannot meet for current workers and retirees at the current Social Security tax rate.

•Medicare. The health care program has a $30 trillion unfunded liability for people now in the system as workers or beneficiaries. The $30 trillion reflects the value today of the more than $200 trillion in deficits over 75 years to cover current workers and retirees at existing levels of benefits, tax rates and premiums. Medicare's new prescription-drug benefit, which starts in 2006, accounts for $6.9 trillion of the program's financial ill health.

How much is $30 trillion? The gross domestic product, the entire economic output of the USA, was $11 trillion last year.

"These numbers are staggering in their magnitude," says economist Thomas Saving, whom Bush appointed as a public trustee on the Medicare and Social Security board. "But when I testify before Congress, I'm the only one saying, 'We have a funding problem.' Everyone else is testifying for more benefits."

Like a home mortgage

The $53 trillion in liabilities is like a mortgage balance: That's what it would cost to pay off the debt now. The actual cost would be higher because of interest payments. A $100,000 mortgage at 5% interest, for example, actually requires $193,000 in income to repay over 30 years.

Under corporate accounting rules, a corporation would record a $100,000 liability on its books if it promised to pay $193,000 in medical benefits over 30 years. That liability would reduce profits immediately, when the promise was made, although the money would be paid over 30 years. Otherwise, shareholders could be fooled into thinking that the company was better off than it really was.

In fact, the company had committed $193,000 in future revenue — worth $100,000 today — to a retiree and couldn't use the money for shareholder profits.

Government doesn't follow this accounting rule. If it did, the federal deficit in 2004 would be $8 trillion, not $422 billion. The $8 trillion reflects the value of new financial obligations Congress approved without any way to pay for them,plus the year's operating deficit.

Government accounting rules are more lenient because, unlike a business, Congress can take whatever money it needs through taxes and renege on promises by passing new laws. Theoretically, the president and Congress could end all health care for the elderly tomorrow and cease Social Security payments the next day — or double or triple tax rates to pay the bills.

That's why AARP, a non-partisan lobbying group for people over 50, says the unfunded promises of Medicare and Social Security are less worrisome than they appear.

"The reason we make companies fund their pension liabilities is because it's uncertain they'll be around in the future. That doesn't apply to government," says John Rother, AARP's research director. "The size of the liabilities isn't relevant, nor is how much we put aside today. What matters is how healthy will the economy be in the future."

He agrees that Medicare has a long-term funding problem but says the nation's entire health system is the issue, not Medicare.

Alan Auerbach, director of the Burch Center for Tax Policy and Public Finance at the University of California-Berkeley, says people are understandably skeptical about gloomy predictions. But he says these numbers are not guesses.

"We can't predict major wars or major inventions," he says. "But we do know the baby boomers aren't going to disappear. We know pretty well that health care costs will rise because of new technology. I wish these were worst-case scenarios, but they're rather cautious best guesses. It could be much worse."

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 3:54:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By p331083:
Question; What happens if the government was to some how pay that bill? I know some goes to other countries but what happens to all the rest? Would they give it to? 4 trillion dollar tax refund?

I mean, if they are basically borrowing most of the money from themselves, how do they go in debt?



That $8 trillion in debt was rasied by selling bonds. Banks, financial institutions, foreign governments and citizens buy the bonds. The money isn't borrowed from themselves.

Bonds are issued at terms of between 10 and 30 years with a fixed interest rate. Bond holders can then trade bonds on a secondary market.

From January to the end of August this year your government has paid $335 billion in interest and that bill and the stupidity behind it will only keep growing. That is $335 billion wasted.

Foreign holding of US federal government debt securities is roughly $1.7 trillion. Japan holds over $600 billion and China about $240 billion.

Good website about US public debt http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:00:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?



Anything and everything until we have a balanced budget. Isn't this obvious?

I cannot figure out how guys defend spending more than you take in. It's just plain common sense.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:03:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?



It would if I was President but not with who we have in office [not blaming Bush either]. The problem with politicians is that they're too involved with politics. If looked at the situation in a rational manner it wouldn't be a problem. They owe us money. They're refusing to pay. We take their collateral.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:05:27 PM EDT
Thank uncle FDR for that.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?



All non-defense, non-police, and non-court spending. Cut 'em all with an eye toward phased out elimination.

It'll never happen, but it's the right answer...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:07:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?



It would if I was President but not with who we have in office [not blaming Bush either]. The problem with politicians is that they're too involved with politics. If looked at the situation in a rational manner it wouldn't be a problem. They owe us money. They're refusing to pay. We take their collateral.

Patty



I'm pretty sure we stand to lose more if everyone starts calling in debt.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:08:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?



All non-defense, non-police, and non-court spending. Cut 'em all with an eye toward phased out elimination.

It'll never happen, but it's the right answer...



Yep. Entitlements come to an end. Foreign aid comes to an end. Supporting the UN comes to an end. All kinds of extravagant spending like that comes to an end.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:12:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?



It would if I was President but not with who we have in office [not blaming Bush either]. The problem with politicians is that they're too involved with politics. If looked at the situation in a rational manner it wouldn't be a problem. They owe us money. They're refusing to pay. We take their collateral.

Patty



I'm pretty sure we stand to lose more if everyone starts calling in debt.



No, I'm pretty sure your wrong. Do a web search and start digging up info on what countries owe us money, whos in default and whos paying us. Just think if that money was going against the principal of what we owe.

With the exception of what the Government owes to US we by far are the most generous and most forgiving nation in the world. If we started collecting on the debts owed to us you'd see that number go down. Central and South America alone could change things around.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:14:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 4:20:25 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?



It would if I was President but not with who we have in office [not blaming Bush either]. The problem with politicians is that they're too involved with politics. If looked at the situation in a rational manner it wouldn't be a problem. They owe us money. They're refusing to pay. We take their collateral.

Patty



I'm pretty sure we stand to lose more if everyone starts calling in debt.



No, I'm pretty sure your wrong. Do a web search and start digging up info on what countries owe us money, whos in default and whos paying us. Just think if that money was going against the principal of what we owe.

With the exception of what the Government owes to US we by far are the most generous and most forgiving nation in the world. If we started collecting on the debts owed to us you'd see that number go down. Central and South America alone could change things around.

Patty



Well you can't get blood from a stone. There is more collateral to plunder from us that there is in failed third world shitholes.


BTW the US is borrowing so it can give money to foreign countries (who cannot repay). That’s insane unless you consider that sometimes that’s the price you pay for maintaining a favorable regime somewhere.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:21:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:Well you can't get blood from a stone. There is more collateral to plunder from us that there is in failed third world shitholes.


You don't honestly believe that do you? Mexico and South America are rich in natural resources. They could easily pay their debt and care for their people IF they weren't corrupt.

Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:23:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 4:24:43 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:Well you can't get blood from a stone. There is more collateral to plunder from us that there is in failed third world shitholes.


You don't honestly believe that do you? Mexico and South America are rich in natural resources. They could easily pay their debt and care for their people IF they weren't corrupt.

Patty



Are those things up as collateral? Or are you suggesting they just cough them up or we use force?


ETA: There are probably people expecting the US to make good on its debts the same way but it doesn't happen.

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:24:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
The answer is really quite simple..........just demand France and Mexico to pay their debt to us. At least make payments on the interest accuring. Crap, swap some oil for interest - couldn't be any worse then the oil for food fiasco.

Patty



Is that tongue in cheek or do you really thing that can be done?



It would if I was President but not with who we have in office [not blaming Bush either]. The problem with politicians is that they're too involved with politics. If looked at the situation in a rational manner it wouldn't be a problem. They owe us money. They're refusing to pay. We take their collateral.

Patty



Wow, thank god people with this complete lack of understanding of economics and how debt is raised are no where near the levers of power.

The US Public Debt was created by the US Congress to fund US Federal Government expenditure. Bonds are issued by the US Treausury which are then bought by governments, banks and individuals, foreign and domestic with the proceeds spent by the government.

The only role France, Mexico or any other foreign country plays in it is BUYING the BONDS so you can FUND your government programs. The idea that they are responsible for the debt is laughable. You owe THEM money which is where the $335b so far this year has gone in paying the INTEREST on the LOAN they gave YOU.

If you want to blame anyone blame endless stream of Presidents, Republican and Democrat as well as Congress for exercising no fiscal discipline. Bush has racked up over $2 trillion in his five years in office. He'd be a good place to start since he is afterall actually in power.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:27:38 PM EDT
ah...WRONG! Slogger78 the debt created by France, Mexico and Many South American countries were not from them buying bonds - when you buy bonds you do not create debt you make debt. They borrowed money from us. Granted it was after things like a huge earthquake destroyed a major proportion of their country and the billion dollars in aid we gave them wasn't enough to rebuild so they borrowed a few trillion as well.

Patty

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:31:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
ah...WRONG! Slogger78 the debt created by France, Mexico and Many South American countries were not from them buying bonds - when you buy bonds you do not create debt you make debt. They borrowed money from us. Granted it was after things like a huge earthquake destroyed a major proportion of their country and the billion dollars in aid we gave them wasn't enough to rebuild so they borrowed a few trillion as well.

Patty




It sounds like you have a better source than I have found, Patty. Can you post any links showing what they owe versus what we own, or even just what they owe? I have struck out so far.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:33:52 PM EDT
[
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By kill-9:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By LARRYG:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




And what would you propose we cut?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




All non-defense, non-police, and non-court spending. Cut 'em all with an eye toward phased out elimination.

It'll never happen, but it's the right answer...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yep. Entitlements come to an end. Foreign aid comes to an end. Supporting the UN comes to an end. All kinds of extravagant spending like that comes to an end.

/quote]



How about we start with cutting grandmas Social Security and cancer treatments. How about all the water departments all over the country. I would love to have a case of Typhoid Fever or Giardia. Get rid of all the public works departments and we can pay tolls every where we drive. And all those price supports for Farmers, Oil Industry, Colleges, Schools, Lumber Companys and Ranchers. Yippee!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:36:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 4:36:45 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By nefariousnick:
[
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By kill-9:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By LARRYG:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




And what would you propose we cut?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




All non-defense, non-police, and non-court spending. Cut 'em all with an eye toward phased out elimination.

It'll never happen, but it's the right answer...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yep. Entitlements come to an end. Foreign aid comes to an end. Supporting the UN comes to an end. All kinds of extravagant spending like that comes to an end.

/quote]



How about we start with cutting grandmas Social Security and cancer treatments. How about all the water departments all over the country. I would love to have a case of Typhoid Fever or Giardia. Get rid of all the public works departments and we can pay tolls every where we drive. And all those price supports for Farmers, Oil Industry, Colleges, Schools, Lumber Companys and Ranchers. Yippee!



If you think all the money being spent is covering basic services you should check out some info on where the budget goes.

Besides, we are spending more than we make. It simply can't go on, regardless of how important or dear to us it is made to sound.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:40:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
ah...WRONG! Slogger78 the debt created by France, Mexico and Many South American countries were not from them buying bonds - when you buy bonds you do not create debt you make debt. They borrowed money from us. Granted it was after things like a huge earthquake destroyed a major proportion of their country and the billion dollars in aid we gave them wasn't enough to rebuild so they borrowed a few trillion as well.

Patty




It sounds like you have a better source than I have found, Patty. Can you post any links showing what they owe versus what we own, or even just what they owe? I have struck out so far.



I will dig it up for you. I need to fix dinner but will get back afterwards. Patty
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:42:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
ah...WRONG! Slogger78 the debt created by France, Mexico and Many South American countries were not from them buying bonds - when you buy bonds you do not create debt you make debt. They borrowed money from us. Granted it was after things like a huge earthquake destroyed a major proportion of their country and the billion dollars in aid we gave them wasn't enough to rebuild so they borrowed a few trillion as well.

Patty




It sounds like you have a better source than I have found, Patty. Can you post any links showing what they owe versus what we own, or even just what they owe? I have struck out so far.



I will dig it up for you. I need to fix dinner but will get back afterwards. Patty



OK, I'll check it out tomorrow I guess. I have to go home and fix dinner as well. SHEISLEGEND is gone tonight.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:07:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?



Anything and everything until we have a balanced budget. Isn't this obvious?

I cannot figure out how guys defend spending more than you take in. It's just plain common sense.



Figures. You have no real plan..........."anything and everything". Yeah, real smart.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:14:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?




Welfare, for starters
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:35:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By LWilde:
So?

And your point is? <<yawn>>

Prioities...priorities...



Yawn? This is better than a lot of the crap in GD.

Yawn? Give me a break, this is juicy shit, man. You know it is...or why did you post?



ETA: Check this shit out

Grim financial statement

To bring attention to the problem, USA TODAY prepared a consolidated financial statement for taxpayers, similar to what corporations give shareholders. The newspaper totaled federal, state and local government liabilities, taken from official documents.

Key findings:

•Total hidden debt. Federal, state and local governments today have debts and "unfunded liabilities" of $53 trillion, or $473,456 per household. An unfunded liability is the difference, valued in today's dollars, between what current law requires the government to pay and what current law provides in projected tax revenue.

•Social Security. The retirement program has $12.7 trillion in obligations it cannot meet for current workers and retirees at the current Social Security tax rate.

•Medicare. The health care program has a $30 trillion unfunded liability for people now in the system as workers or beneficiaries. The $30 trillion reflects the value today of the more than $200 trillion in deficits over 75 years to cover current workers and retirees at existing levels of benefits, tax rates and premiums. Medicare's new prescription-drug benefit, which starts in 2006, accounts for $6.9 trillion of the program's financial ill health.

How much is $30 trillion? The gross domestic product, the entire economic output of the USA, was $11 trillion last year.

"These numbers are staggering in their magnitude," says economist Thomas Saving, whom Bush appointed as a public trustee on the Medicare and Social Security board. "But when I testify before Congress, I'm the only one saying, 'We have a funding problem.' Everyone else is testifying for more benefits."

Like a home mortgage

The $53 trillion in liabilities is like a mortgage balance: That's what it would cost to pay off the debt now. The actual cost would be higher because of interest payments. A $100,000 mortgage at 5% interest, for example, actually requires $193,000 in income to repay over 30 years.

Under corporate accounting rules, a corporation would record a $100,000 liability on its books if it promised to pay $193,000 in medical benefits over 30 years. That liability would reduce profits immediately, when the promise was made, although the money would be paid over 30 years. Otherwise, shareholders could be fooled into thinking that the company was better off than it really was.

In fact, the company had committed $193,000 in future revenue — worth $100,000 today — to a retiree and couldn't use the money for shareholder profits.

Government doesn't follow this accounting rule. If it did, the federal deficit in 2004 would be $8 trillion, not $422 billion. The $8 trillion reflects the value of new financial obligations Congress approved without any way to pay for them,plus the year's operating deficit.

Government accounting rules are more lenient because, unlike a business, Congress can take whatever money it needs through taxes and renege on promises by passing new laws. Theoretically, the president and Congress could end all health care for the elderly tomorrow and cease Social Security payments the next day — or double or triple tax rates to pay the bills.

That's why AARP, a non-partisan lobbying group for people over 50, says the unfunded promises of Medicare and Social Security are less worrisome than they appear.

"The reason we make companies fund their pension liabilities is because it's uncertain they'll be around in the future. That doesn't apply to government," says John Rother, AARP's research director. "The size of the liabilities isn't relevant, nor is how much we put aside today. What matters is how healthy will the economy be in the future."

He agrees that Medicare has a long-term funding problem but says the nation's entire health system is the issue, not Medicare.

Alan Auerbach, director of the Burch Center for Tax Policy and Public Finance at the University of California-Berkeley, says people are understandably skeptical about gloomy predictions. But he says these numbers are not guesses.

"We can't predict major wars or major inventions," he says. "But we do know the baby boomers aren't going to disappear. We know pretty well that health care costs will rise because of new technology. I wish these were worst-case scenarios, but they're rather cautious best guesses. It could be much worse."




You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

I heard EXACTLY the same shit from the Looney Left during the Reagan presidency. I remember one especially disturbing commercial where the money clock was RACING away at a frantic pace and there was this little forelorn girl of about ten asking what would be left for her generation?

As soon as a CONSERVATIVE got into office and decided to open up the fargin treasury to WIN THE FUCKING COLD WAR, all of a sudden the easy-spending Left suddenly had a fiscal epiphany that would rival that of Augustine of Hippo. PLEEEASE!

BULLSHIT! Wars are expensive. Natural disasters are expensive.

Now...pile all that on top of the already bloated manditorily obligated budget and guess what? We have a deficit.

So what? We will find a way to pay for it. We have done so many, many times before and we will again.

So...like I said...<<yawn>> BFD.

Oh...BTW...find some conservative sources and your argument might be better served.

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:40:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
ah...WRONG! Slogger78 the debt created by France, Mexico and Many South American countries were not from them buying bonds - when you buy bonds you do not create debt you make debt. They borrowed money from us. Granted it was after things like a huge earthquake destroyed a major proportion of their country and the billion dollars in aid we gave them wasn't enough to rebuild so they borrowed a few trillion as well.

Patty




All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, which is the (almost) $8 trillion in US Public Debt.

Firstly foreign countries have not borrowed trillions.

Second, defaults on debt owed to the US government by other governments are trivial. The vast majority of repayments are made on time.

The US Treasury Departments "U.S. Portfolio Holdings of Foreign Securities at end-year 2003" details the breakdown of debt owed to the US (US government as well as financial institutions) by foreign governments. Worldwide at 31 December 2003 the US government and financial institutions had $353 billion in outstanding loans to foreign governments in both long and short term loans.

Check the figures yourself if you want : http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/shc2003r.pdf page 61 to 66. On page 12 you can see the maturity structure.

Foreign countries not paying their debts to the US are virtually non existent, and when it does happen the amounts are small. It has no impact on the US Public Debt and why it exists.

The US Public Debt is due solely to a long string of Presidents and Congresses which have failed to exercise fiscal discipline.

If we pretended for a minute that the $353b outstanding was all owed to the US government it still would only cover the interest bill on the $8 trillion in debt for a year.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:52:07 PM EDT
I can say wholeheartadly that as far as i am concerned this was never nor will it ever be Bush's fault. I'm leaning towards saying it was Wilsons fault or maybe JFK, i dunno, anyone with a capital d next to their name will do fine.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:10:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 6:10:57 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?




STOP SPENDING MORE THAN WE TAKE IN.



And what would you propose we cut?



Anything and everything until we have a balanced budget. Isn't this obvious?

I cannot figure out how guys defend spending more than you take in. It's just plain common sense.



Figures. You have no real plan..........."anything and everything". Yeah, real smart.



Oh, I forgot I was dealing with a ARFCOM GD Forum financial genius. Any moron who defends spending trillions more than our Government is making needs his head examined.

Since you think it’s such a good plan why don’t you try it? See how long it takes for them to repo everything you own.

Smart Plan.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:36:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
What do you propose we do about it?



get out of Iraq would be a good starter. What is it, a billion a day




Dont like the price of gas? Pull the US forces out of the country. Let the terrorists control the country's oil. You would have oil at 100 dollars a barrel in days. Check out what that means to this country's economy. I can give you a clue- A hell of a lot more damage than a national debt. Dont like the facts of the situation? Find other sources of energy. Until then,these are the hard cold facts. Like them or not.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:40:53 PM EDT
Without reading any of the replies, my answer is that if the debt clock is getting too high, unplug it.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:04:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 7:04:37 PM EDT by MillerSHO]
I'm not trying to stick up for Bush here I'm just trying to point something out.

I'm not that old but I'm not sure there's been any other president that's been as much as Bush has in the last 5 years.

It's been one big thing after another.

During those times we're going to spend more. Hopefully during those off times in the future we will try to offset the bad times.

Unless bad times are on us for good.
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