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Posted: 9/14/2009 5:43:02 PM EST
I've been doing a lot of gun trading this year, and my father-in-law is warning me that I could get it trouble for Dealing in Firearms Without a License. Can someone please tell me what makes one a "dealer" as far as the ATF is concerned? Is it how many guns I sell in a year, and if so, how many? It sounds like it is all about intent, and if that is the case, I don't see how anyone could ever be convicted, unless the have a store-front, or a super large inventory or something. Even if I sell a gun the same day I buy it, how do they know I didn't take it to the range, and deside it had to much kick, or decided the stock didn't feel quite right in my shoulder when shooting?

Can someone please tell me what the letter of the law is on this subject? Also, what is the penalty, if they decide that I am a "dealer" because they are having a bad day or something?

Thanks for your time.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 11:02:56 AM EST
Lots of posts on this issue, but there is not a bright line definition of a "dealer." Penalty is very bad juju.... if convicted, you won't be buying or selling any more guns.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 11:05:09 AM EST
Its got to do with income, and I thought there was a percentage. I cant remember and hopefully someone that does will chime in.


Are you just trading, or selling?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:56:17 PM EST
I buy, and sell, and whatever money is left over, just goes into the next gun. I have zero interest in generating money from trading, I'm just looking to upgrade my guns. Example, I bought two guns for $500 last month, and a couple days later sold one of them for $500, and got a free gun out of the deal. I do things like that as often as I can find the deals. It's always from private party to private party, and after a couple months I have extra guns in my personal collection, not extra cash.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 4:19:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 4:22:22 PM EST
If you are worried then that might be a warning that you might want to chill a bit.

There is no set amount but when you start making a pattern one can easily follow then hide your dog.

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 1:40:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Buying with the intent of reselling sure sounds like dealing to me, sorry

+1
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 2:36:58 AM EST
All I can find so far.


Bureau of Alchohol, Tobaco and Firearms
US Department of the Treasury
Title 18, U.S.C. Chapter 44
Firearms

Section 921(a)21)(C)
The term "engaged in the business" means - C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
921(a)(ll)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course
of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase
and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or
purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part
of his personal collection of firearms;
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:42:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By WHITE_WOLFE:
All I can find so far.


Bureau of Alchohol, Tobaco and Firearms
US Department of the Treasury
Title 18, U.S.C. Chapter 44
Firearms

Section 921(a)21)(C)
The term "engaged in the business" means - C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
921(a)(ll)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course
of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase
and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or
purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part
of his personal collection of firearms;


I have a FFL and know what you have posted to be the truth. Now, I am against passing the gun show loop hole (people trading guns amongst themselves as described above)t. Why is it so hard to find the ones that are selling their "collection" at every gun show that they can get to???
I would think that the ATF has their people at these gun shows and follow one around and see if he is buying and selling at alot of shows. If he is what is so hard to charge him with dealing without a license? What is so difficult about enforcing what is already written??
I wish we didn't have to have a license to deal in guns but we do. The people that are abusing it; arrest them. The one that are just enjoying a little horse trading; leave them alone.
Tom

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:06:32 AM EST
Post one. Retroreactive Acorn dealer?
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:15:54 PM EST
So if I get an FFL, how does my life change? If I BUY a gun from a private individual, do I have to bother him with paperwork, or is it just when I sell? How long does it take to sell a gun, and do the paperwork? Can I do it from my car if I have wireless internet? What hassles go along with an FFL?
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:03:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By hannahsman:
So if I get an FFL, how does my life change? If I BUY a gun from a private individual, do I have to bother him with paperwork, or is it just when I sell? How long does it take to sell a gun, and do the paperwork? Can I do it from my car if I have wireless internet? What hassles go along with an FFL?

If you have an FFL and buy a gun from a person you have to enter his Name and address in your bound book. Once you have an FFL the ATF will want to come and check your records. When I had mine they wanted to see where I would be dealing as well. You dont need an internet connection to be an FFL. Phone works just fine for NICs checks.


If your not making a living by buying, selling and trading then I would worry to much, but you may consider slowing down a bit every once in a while.

Its really up to you.


Also is used to be easy to be a kitchen table FFL, but I dont think it is anymore.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:27:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Post one. Retroreactive Acorn dealer?



If this comment was directed at me, then I guess I am just too dense to understand.( I am also a "by the law" kind of guy and do things by the book. ) I don't skirt the law or redefine it (as ACORN seems to do), so please illuminate me as to what your comment "retroactive acorn dealer" means????
Tom

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:44:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By hannahsman:
So if I get an FFL, how does my life change? If I BUY a gun from a private individual, do I have to bother him with paperwork, or is it just when I sell? How long does it take to sell a gun, and do the paperwork? Can I do it from my car if I have wireless internet? What hassles go along with an FFL?


I think it would be to your best interest to ask BATFE to send you a package to become a dealer. You can go to their web site or call, they have always been easy to deal with, with me any way.
I could answer or try to answer your questions, but getting the package you're getting your answer from theTop Dog.

By reading the quote, who is a dealer, I would think you would know if you need a license or not.
This is meant to help, not offend!
Tom
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:35:06 AM EST
Thanks everyone. I'm just going to get my FFL. I went to FFL123.com and bought their info package. I still don't think I'm breaking any laws, but I'm in a grey area where if they decide to go after me, they can. And I don't like grey areas.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:40:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By hannahsman:
Thanks everyone. I'm just going to get my FFL. I went to FFL123.com and bought their info package. I still don't think I'm breaking any laws, but I'm in a grey area where if they decide to go after me, they can. And I don't like grey areas.




ATF provides all the same stuff at no charge.

FWIW we do have an FFL Forum on ARFCOM - suggest you read and learn before going further.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:28:12 PM EST
I have to chime in on this quoting our area office lead ATF Agent, "You can sell 1 gun or 100 guns, they are your property and you can do with them as you like as long as your living is not based on these transactions and you follow established regulations". Additionally he added, "We get called alot about this (dealing w/o a license) and most claims we see are not the case".

The big thing here is profit. Sure, if you sell a gun that is from your personal collection and it is sold for more than you bought it for, good for you. But, if you continually buy and sell for the purposes of making a profit, then YES, you are dealing w/o a license.
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