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Posted: 7/9/2002 11:49:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 11:54:05 AM EST by Midian]
Another member’s post about a “mini-riot” stirred up really disturbing memories of a recent event in Seattle, Washington. In short, a crowd of revelers at a Mardi Gras celebration picked up a woman, stripped her of her clothes, and sexually assaulted her. Worst of all, a journalist took a photo of the event and won an award for it: WARNING! This photo nearly made me vomit: http://www.nppa.org/bestofpj/urbanphoto.jpg My question is, if you had witnessed that event, what would you have done? [Edited to remove my self-incriminating violent response]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 11:52:49 AM EST
And guys wonder why women call us pigs.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 11:58:56 AM EST
I don't know exactly how, but I would of tried to free her and get her away from those fvcks! Depending on my mood, I might have shot some of them until they dropped her and scattered. It's not much, but at least those in the picture can be charged....
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:00:39 PM EST
I would have fired a round into the air, and demanded they drop her, then cover them with the business end of my .45 until they did. If anyone were in the act of raping her or trying to, he'd get a shot in the chest if he didn't stop right then and there.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:02:40 PM EST
Terminate. With. Extreme. Prejudice. the_reject
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:04:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 12:05:07 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:11:19 PM EST
Get out the camcorder and try to sell the tape to the producers of the "Girls gone wild" videos? Seriously, If I'm off duty I'm not going to shoot somebody for groping the breast of a woman I dont know. There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers". Her panties are still on, the men are all fully clothed, for all I know this is the local college football team and they just pulled a train on her back at the frat house, and she likes this type of thing. Be a good withness until its clear that its going to result in injury or felony sexual assualt rather than a POSSIBLE case of misdemeanor sexual battery. One lesson I will always remeber is a young Marine on guard duty who shot and killed a fellow marine, when the young female Marine Officer screamed "RAPE" becuase she didnt want to get in trouble for having sex with a married enlisted Marine. to many unknowns.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:18:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:19:07 PM EST
When i got home from the navy i had a small apt. and i had a party to celebrate my return home and some friends put the word out about this huge party and people started showing up who none of us knew ,well about two hours into this party a bunch of bikers showd up and were cool at first and i think there was about 6 of them ,i noticed that the biker group was down to 2 and i went looking for the other 4 ,what i found was a girl i went to high school with and was a very nice girl, she had one of the bikers hands over her mouth and the other 3 were trying to get her clothing off, i was in really good shape and i use to box ,still i thought i was about to get the worst end of it but that didn't matter ,no one was going to rape a girl in my house or anywhere for that matter if i could prevent it. I took out the first one with a side hand to the throat which caused him to drop to his knees and gasp for air,number 2 was still involved with getting the girls clothing off and i hit him in the base of the skull from behind,he went out easy(lucky for me,he was big) the other 2 saw what just happened and let her go and turned their attention to me,i did pretty goood for about 15 seconds and got in a bunch of solid hits before i was seeing stars from being hit with something(never found out what)from behind. I went down and was hit again ,just as i thought it was lights out the girls brother came in and she was telling him what happened and he picked me up to my feet and him and i and about 20 of my friends spent the next half hour teaching an impromptu lesson in manners to these lowlife scumbags. Let a rape happen? Not if i can help it, the beating i thought i was gioing to get was nothing compared to what would have happened to that poor girl,we found out later that night she was coming out of the bathroom and one of these jerkoffs grabed her from behind and took her into my bedroom where the other three were waiting. They promised to come back and kill us all that night and i'm still waiting.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:24:26 PM EST
Yup AR15fan, probably good advice. Last I checked, women who go to Mardi Gras usually aren't of superior moral repute. In other words, she played in the snakepit, and got bitten. I wouldn't do anything based on the information contained in the story. I wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:25:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 12:26:44 PM EST by Gunner1X]
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Get out the camcorder and try to sell the tape to the producers of the "Girls gone wild" videos? Her panties are still on, the men are all fully clothed, for all I know this is the local college football team and they just pulled a train on her back at the frat house, and she likes this type of thing.
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And you're a cop? Great...very nice. I'm sure you'd make my LE family members and LE buddies proud. Nice cover your own ass attitude. ______________________________________________ American Legion - For God & Country
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:26:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:31:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:32:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 12:34:11 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: And you're a cop? Great...very nice. I'm sure you'd make my LE family members and LE buddies proud. Nice cover your own ass attitude.
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If you'are going to quote me, either quote me in entirity or edit your post to reflect your removing key elements from the body of the section your quoted. You removed an entire sentance from the body of the quote, specifically this one: [b]There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers".[/b]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:38:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: And you're a cop? Great...very nice. I'm sure you'd make my LE family members and LE buddies proud. Nice cover your own ass attitude.
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If you'are going to quote me, either quote me in entirity or edit your post to reflect your removing key elements from the body of the section your quoted. You removed an entire sentance from the body of the quote, specifically this one: [b]There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers".[/b]
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Whats wrong with you? the nature of her relationship with her attackers,obviously none if they are her attackers. You crack me up ,if she is being raped by anyone it's your job to stop it ,NOW MATTER HOW IT STARTED. Oh maybe you think she deserved it? You are a fine example of the police in this country,NOT!!!!
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:43:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:02:57 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By jrzy: Whats wrong with you? the nature of her relationship with her attackers,obviously none if they are her attackers. You crack me up ,if she is being raped by anyone it's your job to stop it ,NOW MATTER HOW IT STARTED. Oh maybe you think she deserved it? You are a fine example of the police in this country,NOT!!!!
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From the information contained in the picture, you can not presume they are "attackers". There is no rape occuring in the photo. Did she "deserve" having her breasts groped? No, but she may be a willing participant and she may be enjoying it. You cant start shooting people based on the limited info contained in the photograph. By your own admission you dont know enough about what is happening to start shooting. That is wahy you wrote "[b]If[/b]they are her attackers" and "[b]If[/b]she is being raped. The picture depicts a misdemeanor sexual battery at worst.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:48:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Get out the camcorder and try to sell the tape to the producers of the "Girls gone wild" videos? Seriously, If I'm off duty I'm not going to shoot somebody for groping the breast of a woman I dont know. There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers". Her panties are still on, the men are all fully clothed, for all I know this is the local college football team and they just pulled a train on her back at the frat house, and she likes this type of thing. Be a good withness until its clear that its going to result in injury or felony sexual assualt rather than a POSSIBLE case of misdemeanor sexual battery. One lesson I will always remeber is a young Marine on guard duty who shot and killed a fellow marine, when the young female Marine Officer screamed "RAPE" becuase she didnt want to get in trouble for having sex with a married enlisted Marine. to many unknowns.
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How's this? [red]And you're a cop? Great...very nice. I'm sure you'd make my LE family members and LE buddies proud. Nice cover your own ass attitude.[/red] You make me sick! I'm sure your chief would be proud as well! ______________________________________________ American Legion - For God & Country
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:48:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:50:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: And you're a cop? Great...very nice. I'm sure you'd make my LE family members and LE buddies proud. Nice cover your own ass attitude.
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If you'are going to quote me, either quote me in entirity or edit your post to reflect your removing key elements from the body of the section your quoted. You removed an entire sentance from the body of the quote, specifically this one: [b]There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers".[/b]
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Whats wrong with you? the nature of her relationship with her attackers,obviously none if they are her attackers. You crack me up ,if she is being raped by anyone it's your job to stop it ,NOW MATTER HOW IT STARTED. Oh maybe you think she deserved it? You are a fine example of the police in this country,NOT!!!!
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Well said jrzy! ___________________________________________ American Legion - For God & Country
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:56:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: I'm sure your chief would be proud as well!
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Yes. My chief would be very greatful for saving the city millions in civil suit judgments by not over reacting and shooting a bunch of people over what might be a misdemeanor I saw while off duty. I come across people having sex in public all the time at work. I dont shoot them, I take the time to figure out what is going on instead of jumping to conclusions with guns blazing. This pic would be great for a CCW class final exam. Q: Based on the information contained in this picture, is deadly force justified. Fail everyone who answers yes!
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:07:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:09:32 PM EST by Gunner1X]
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: I'm sure your chief would be proud as well!
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Yes. My chief would be very greatful for saving the city millions in civil suit judgments by not over reacting and shooting a bunch of people over what might be a misdemeanor I saw while off duty. I come across people having sex in public all the time at work. I dont shoot them, I take the time to figure out what is going on instead of jumping to conclusions with guns blazing. This pic would be great for a CCW class final exam. Q: Based on the information contained in this picture, is deadly force justified. Fail everyone who answers yes!
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When did I say anything about shooting anyone for any reason? My response was in regards to you piss poor comments and attitude towards the victim in this case. Please tell me you're not really a cop! And if you are? What state? What county? What city? And you wonder why there's so much hatred for and lack of trust in cops. ____________________________________________ American Legion -For God & Country
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:07:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:15:48 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:12:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:12:50 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By Gunner1X: When did I say anything about shooting anyone for any reason?
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This thread is a Shoot / dont Shoot thread. I am addressing the issue from that perspective. I assumed you were staying on topic too...
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:12:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:17:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:21:03 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: Lets just say...you were there and the girl was crying and struggling and calling for help
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In that case: The girls "crying", "struggling" and "calling for help" give me an articulable suspicion of criminal activity, which allows me to detain everyone involved. I would do so, using as little force as necessary, conduct a quick but thourough interview of everyone involved, including as many uninvolved winessess as possible. If, through the course of the investigation, I develop probable cause to arrest, then I would do so. I would not shoot first and ask questions later.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:18:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:19:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:21:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:23:18 PM EST
AR15fan, I agree with you so far. As for people talking of warning shots, [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:25:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:29:13 PM EST by fizassist]
Gut instinct to protect the womenz & children aside, I have to agree with you, AR15fan. I'm not an LEO, but I have a great deal of sympathy for what you go through when you come on any situation like this. Way too many unknowns. To gunner1x & jrzy: What if you see some 15 year old kid you don't know point a gun at your friend? Do you shoot? What if your friend knows the kid and they're just horsing around with a toy? Could you live with yourself if that was the case? Now if the kid is aiming the gun at me, I'd sure as hell shoot him. If I don't know him, he's taking his life in his own hands by presenting a lethal threat. If it was a toy, I would still have no regrets. The difference in the two situations above is [b]the degree of knowledge about the situation[/b]. Even going by the Mardi Gras photo, you [b]don't[/b] know what's going on. It's all well and good to play hero for the damsel in distress, but I suggest you ask any cop on the board how often the "victim" in a domestic disturbance gets aggressive with them. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to stop something like this from happening; I would definitely be diving in head first 1) To gain more [b]information[/b], and 2) to elevate the level of my involvement if that information warranted it.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:26:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Defcon: As for people talking of warning shots, [rolleyes]
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Warning shots are a specific violation of my departments written deadly force policy. I dont fire warning shots under any circumstance.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:27:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: AR15FAN, Attitudes like yours are the reason everyone should carry a firearm!! Thanks for making it easier to justify the need for CCW. Everyone knows there is no legal liability for the police to protect you, and with comments like yours people will start to believe there is no moral liability either. You are giving your fellow leo's a bad name. Forget about the picture and what you can tell from the picture. Lets just say...you were there and the girl was crying and struggling and calling for help. If you still feel the same way then you are a POS and I doubt you are a cop anyway.
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Not a cop - maybe reserve - maybe mall security-mall ninja, but not a cop.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:34:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: AR15FAN, Attitudes like yours are the reason everyone should carry a firearm!! Thanks for making it easier to justify the need for CCW. Everyone knows there is no legal liability for the police to protect you, and with comments like yours people will start to believe there is no moral liability either. You are giving your fellow leo's a bad name. Forget about the picture and what you can tell from the picture. Lets just say...you were there and the girl was crying and struggling and calling for help. If you still feel the same way then you are a POS and I doubt you are a cop anyway.
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Not a cop - maybe reserve - maybe mall security-mall ninja, but not a cop.
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Hold the damned phone. AR15Fan sure doesn't need my help, but screw you. His posts are SPOT on. I am an attorney and have had formal training on the use of force by police in this state. YOUR version of how you'd like him to handle the situation is irrelevant, as is your charge that he doesn't know what he's doing. Your guns blazing attitude reeks of cowboy/testosterone, yet lacks fundimental knowledge of police policy and liability considerations. Half this board crucifies ALL LEOS when they "determine," (again using gut instinct rather than any knowledge of law or policy) that a single cop stepped over the line, always based on incomplete info, as this picture conveys. Now, you want to bash a guy because he won't shoot first and ask questions later.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:35:50 PM EST
Some of you guys are nimrods. AR15fan's measured response is appropriate to his role of LEO, if not the macho, red-blooded response. You: "Uh what if you saw this here (insert ambiguous situation here), wouldja shootem all dead? AR15fan: "No. Depends on what was happening." You: "What if she was being raped, screaming and crying for help, what then?" AR15fan: "Well, then I'd stop them, with force if need be." You: "Lyin' pussy." [rolleyes] Now I'm no believer in the myth of LEO Infallibility, but I think AR15fan is on the money. If it's ambiguous like this photo, you'd need more information to act. AR15fan wasn't one of those donut-eatin' assclowns at the Central Park Sexual Assault Fiesta, so don't tar him with that brush.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:42:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:50:30 PM EST by Gunner1X]
Originally Posted By fizassist: Gut instinct to protect the womenz & children aside, I have to agree with you, AR15fan. I'm not an LEO, but I have a great deal of sympathy for what you go through when you come on any situation like this. Way too many unknowns. To gunner1x & jrzy: What if you see some 15 year old kid you don't know point a gun at your friend? Do you shoot? What if your friend knows the kid and they're just horsing around with a toy? Could you live with yourself if that was the case? Now if the kid is aiming the gun at me, I'd sure as hell shoot him. If I don't know him, he's taking his life in his own hands by presenting a lethal threat. If it was a toy, I would still have no regrets. The difference in the two situations above is [b]the degree of knowledge about the situation[/b]. Even going by the Mardi Gras photo, you [b]don't[/b] know what's going on. It's all well and good to play hero for the damsel in distress, but I suggest you ask any cop on the board how often the "victim" in a domestic disturbance gets aggressive with them. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to stop something like this from happening; I would definitely be diving in head first 1) To gain more [b]information[/b], and 2) to elevate the level of my involvement if that information warranted it.
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[B]ONCE AGAIN, I SAID NOTHING ABOUT SHOOTING ANYONE[/B] My comments and concerns are in regards to ar15fan's first post on this thread. Piss poor for a cop. I have family members and friends in law enforcement. That's why his statements piss me off. It gives cops a bad rap. I know exactly what cops have to deal with every day. His statements are unacceptable for a police officer, if he really is LE. ____________________________________________ American Legion - For God & Country
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:42:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: His posts are SPOT on. I am an attorney and have had formal training on the use of force by police in this state. (California)
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You are using Ca. as an example of the proper use of force ? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Counselor you should have skipped the Bar,not the one who gave you the test to pratice law ,the one you stopped and got tanked in on the way home.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:48:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:50:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:51:09 PM EST by AR15fan]
Gunner1X, What pisses ou off? Knowing that there are some women who enjoy group sex, public sex, or rough sex, and that things are not always what they seem at first glance? If I shattered some mythical belief of yours, that all women are delicate little flowers, who must be protected by chivalrous men, I apologize.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:51:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: His posts are SPOT on. I am an attorney and have had formal training on the use of force by police in this state. (California)
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You are using Ca. as an example of the proper use of force ? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Counselor you should have skipped the Bar,not the one who gave you the test to pratice law ,the one you stopped and got tanked in on the way home.
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Like it or not, cowboy, California sets the standard for liability, NATIONWIDE. I would wager two things: First, that Cali police use of force policies are very similar if not identical to most jursidictions, And second, that I know a hell of a lot more than you do about what we're talking about. Oh, I guess you have trouble computing time with all those confusing time zones, it's only 1545 here, I'm still at work. No bar for me.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:54:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:54:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:55:26 PM EST by Spearweasel]
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: Oh btw, spearweasel if your going to rehash my questions, try to quote it somewhat accurately and dont add sh*t in. Thanks "You: "Lyin' pussy."
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That wasn't meant to be just you, Lost. That was everyone who was jumping his sh*t after upping the situational ante. Consider it a "synthesis with sprinkle of entertaining hyperbole" rather than a quote.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:57:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 1:58:25 PM EST by CITADELGRAD87]
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: His posts are SPOT on. I am an attorney and have had formal training on the use of force by police in this state. (California) Like it or not, cowboy, California sets the standard for liability, NATIONWIDE.
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And you're saying thats a good thing?
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I didn't say it was good or bad. It's the way it IS. We're talking reality here, what would someone do and why. Silly me, I thought there was a place for how things really are somewhere in this thread.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:58:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 2:43:05 PM EST by Adam_White]
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: According to the caption the woman is being "sexually abused" so I think its safe to say she was not enjoying it, and more than likely she was yelling for help.
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I've read one too many captions describing semi-auto rifles as "automatic machine guns" to put too much weight in what buzz words some editor wants in a caption. Did those of you condemning AR15fan not catch this quote: "Be a good withness [b]until its clear that its going to result in injury or felony sexual assualt[/b] rather than a POSSIBLE case of misdemeanor sexual battery." Sounds like we are all in agreement here. Let's all take a deep breath. Adam edited because I am always embarrassed at the number of typos / misspelling I tend to have. Damn spell check don't work for me - maybe I should start pasting from word?
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:58:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: As for the lawyer with training in police liabiltiy, no shit..the police are always held liable when they act and make a mistake,
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Always?
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:59:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:01:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: As for the lawyer with training in police liabiltiy, no shit..the police are always held liable when they act and make a mistake, thats an unfortunate and BS part of the justice system, however, police are NEVER held liable when they do nothing. So it comes down to a PERSONAL MORAL DECISION
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SO we agree AR15fan's carrer is in the crapper if he screws up, do we? So why would you fault him for taking that into consideration, particularly since HE SAID it was unclear to him what was going on, and why, and what he would do to figure out what was going on?
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:01:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:04:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 2:05:51 PM EST by anti-gov-tinfoil-man]
I hate cops as much or more than anyone here, and even I think there's nothing wrong with AR15fan's post.
Get out the camcorder and try to sell the tape to the producers of the "Girls gone wild" videos? [red] Seriously, If I'm off duty I'm not going to shoot somebody for groping the breast of a woman I dont know. There are too many unknowns here, such as the nature of her relationship with her "attackers". Her panties are still on, the men are all fully clothed, for all I know this is the local college football team and they just pulled a train on her back at the frat house, and she likes this type of thing.[/red] Be a good withness until its clear that its going to result in injury or felony sexual assualt rather than a POSSIBLE case of misdemeanor sexual battery. One lesson I will always remeber is a young Marine on guard duty who shot and killed a fellow marine, when the young female Marine Officer screamed "RAPE" becuase she didnt want to get in trouble for having sex with a married enlisted Marine. to many unknowns.
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He basically says, get full information before acting. Wish all cops would act like that. 99% of the ones i've met would run in with night sticks a thumping and ask questions/ make up answers later.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:16:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 2:18:48 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:22:19 PM EST
AR15fan doesn't need my help, either, but it never hurts to "check by" with a fellow officer. He is absolutely right. As an officer, an armed citizen, or anyone, you do not fire at anyone, espcially into a crowd, without knowing what is going on. Period.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 2:48:50 PM EST
CITADELGRAD87 The Bar crack was meant as a joke so lighten up, and when did the time of day ever stop a lawyer from having a drink or two or 8,LOL Do you have a sense of humor? If so read on, Why will a shark never bite a lawyer? Professsional courtesy,LOL What do you call a hundred lawyers going off a 200 foot cliff? A good start. And don't ever presume that you know more than someome you never met,that is a sign of arogance. But gee an arogant attorney,stop the presses,alert the media.
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