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Posted: 12/31/2015 7:43:03 PM EDT
Assuming we had to land against a similarly advanced military with years to fortify a beachhead against a landing.

Could we- the U.S. Military actually get a foot hold and take the beach and advance?

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:44:49 PM EDT
The US Military does what it wants, but in that case it would get messy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:45:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:46:26 PM EDT
Probably but it would require a lot of softening up with air power and missiles. Nobody is going to use fixed defenses anymore like the Germans did at Normandy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:48:06 PM EDT
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:50:49 PM EDT
Since we now posses the means to actually "take out" beach fortifications....sure, why wouldn't we succeed?

(I still seethe in anger at what my Infantry forebears had to suffer through, in spite of the Navy and Air Force
blithely promising they'll "take out" the beach fortifications and instead bombed the fuck out of fish in the Atlantic
and cows in the French countryside behind the beaches )
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:51:38 PM EDT
5000 ships aren't sneaking up on anybody these days.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:51:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By R0N:
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.
View Quote


Interesting. But have we ever had any actual contested beaches for a landing? Minus the special op invasions in Grenada and Panama. We faked them out in GW1 but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Without that though.

Replace the Nomandy defenses with modern weapons etc. same with our landing fleet. Do we still take the beach?
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:52:13 PM EDT
Back then we were willing to take a punch.

I seriously doubt we could generate that kind of will today. We knew we were going to lose thousands and went anyway.


Don't see that happening today.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:53:50 PM EDT
especially for France
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:55:25 PM EDT
Nope...




Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:55:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:


Interesting. But have we ever had any actual contested beaches for a landing? Minus the special op invasions in Grenada and Panama. We faked them out in GW1 but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Without that though.

Replace the Nomandy defenses with modern weapons etc. same with our landing fleet. Do we still take the beach?
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.


Interesting. But have we ever had any actual contested beaches for a landing? Minus the special op invasions in Grenada and Panama. We faked them out in GW1 but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Without that though.

Replace the Nomandy defenses with modern weapons etc. same with our landing fleet. Do we still take the beach?


With our modern sensor tech, UAVs, recon sat coverage, and PGMs... would there be any sort of defense left?

It's a fascinating thought exercise... I hope like hell we never find out.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:58:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By R0N:
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.
View Quote




Just a thought. I'm talking a super power. Years of war to prepare. They would also have air defense of simulator technology. Can we really bypass this. Look with SAMs did to our fighters and bombers in NV. Sure it was 40 years ago but the question stands.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:03:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


With our modern sensor tech, UAVs, recon sat coverage, and PGMs... would there be any sort of defense left?

It's a fascinating thought exercise... I hope like hell we never find out.
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.


Interesting. But have we ever had any actual contested beaches for a landing? Minus the special op invasions in Grenada and Panama. We faked them out in GW1 but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Without that though.

Replace the Nomandy defenses with modern weapons etc. same with our landing fleet. Do we still take the beach?


With our modern sensor tech, UAVs, recon sat coverage, and PGMs... would there be any sort of defense left?

It's a fascinating thought exercise... I hope like hell we never find out.


Remember, this isn't against sheep herding Taliban. We're talking a similarly advanced military force. Much like the actual event but with modern tech. We have it. They have it. Would we even get near a beach? Would their be a massive naval battle preceding any actual landing attempt?
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:07:19 PM EDT
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This. Also, Hitler could have stopped Overlord with nerve gas, if he had been ready and willing.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:10:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By stevem1a:


This. Also, Hitler could have stopped Overlord with nerve gas, if he had been ready and willing.
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Originally Posted By stevem1a:


This. Also, Hitler could have stopped Overlord with nerve gas, if he had been ready and willing.


How far is either side willing to go. Another scary point. Would nukes enter the equation before a landing was even attempted.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:11:08 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By R0N:


Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.



Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.
View Quote
But muh IADS.

 



Wut about muh IADS?
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:14:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:19:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:


Remember, this isn't against sheep herding Taliban. We're talking a similarly advanced military force. Much like the actual event but with modern tech. We have it. They have it. Would we even get near a beach? Would their be a massive naval battle preceding any actual landing attempt?
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Landing on contested beach heads was required because technology did not permit by passing the defense force.

Today we would by pass the beach head and land the majority of the landing force in land.


Interesting. But have we ever had any actual contested beaches for a landing? Minus the special op invasions in Grenada and Panama. We faked them out in GW1 but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Without that though.

Replace the Nomandy defenses with modern weapons etc. same with our landing fleet. Do we still take the beach?


With our modern sensor tech, UAVs, recon sat coverage, and PGMs... would there be any sort of defense left?

It's a fascinating thought exercise... I hope like hell we never find out.


Remember, this isn't against sheep herding Taliban. We're talking a similarly advanced military force. Much like the actual event but with modern tech. We have it. They have it. Would we even get near a beach? Would their be a massive naval battle preceding any actual landing attempt?


At this point in time fixed defenses are simply bomb magnets. B-2s, F-22s, F-35?? are basically immune to air defenses and once the SEAD mission is complete and we have air superiority roll in the bomb trucks.

It would be a blood bath for a fixed defensive positions on a beachhead.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:22:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MMcfpd:
5000 ships aren't sneaking up on anybody these days.
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Not with CNN and MSNBC broadcasting that they were on the way.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:24:00 PM EDT
We were planning on softening up mainland Japan with a carpet of nukes before we invaded.

No reason that wouldn't work today.



Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:26:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
We were planning on softening up mainland Japan with a carpet of nukes before we invaded.

No reason that wouldn't work today.



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Really? I didn't know that.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:27:07 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By hobbsar:


Probably but it would require a lot of softening up with air power and missiles. Nobody is going to use fixed defenses anymore like the Germans did at Normandy.
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I really need to dig my grandpa's target list out of the boxes from when I moved earlier this year, but he I know he flew on several missions to both Normandy and Pas de Calais as part of the pre-invasion/deception operations from May through early June of '44. He was a ball turret gunner on a B-17 and his group dropped a shitload of bombs on France to soften up/deceive the Germans in the run-up to the invasion.



In a modern sense we'd have to do the same thing, but a lot of it would be cruise missiles for prep work and it would have to be spread over a larger area because response times (and weapon ranges) are a lot different now than they were in 1944. Even after doing all of that you still have to deal with all the Silkworms and the like that the bombing missed when you attempted the actual landings.
 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:27:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hobbsar:
Probably but it would require a lot of softening up with air power and missiles. Nobody is going to use fixed defenses anymore like the Germans did at Normandy.
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besides our targeting systems are much, much, much better today, all the bombing to soften up the Normandy beaches was largely ineffective.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:28:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:

Really? I didn't know that.
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
We were planning on softening up mainland Japan with a carpet of nukes before we invaded.

No reason that wouldn't work today.




Really? I didn't know that.


Chemical weapons, too.

We were TIRED of dealing with their ornery asses.

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:29:21 PM EDT
Considering the bombers straight missed the fkn beach by a couple miles. Id say we could do better
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:29:52 PM EDT
Precision bombing with laser guided bombs and artillery? A-10s to stop Panzer Lehr and its Leopard IIs?  Tomahawk missiles to take out RRs or its bridges?  Atomic weaponry?  

Yeah, it's doable but the counter-strike with atomic weaponry will wipe out the invasion force.

Bottom line:  very expensive in terms of men and material.  How about just letting the old dudes (politicians) fight it out for everyone else?
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:30:41 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:





Really? I didn't know that.
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:



Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:

We were planning on softening up mainland Japan with a carpet of nukes before we invaded.



No reason that wouldn't work today.









Really? I didn't know that.


Yep that was one of the ideas they were kicking around.



Check out the book Downfall by Richard B. Frank, it's a good book and it has a lot of interesting information on Allied invasion planning for Japan.



 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:31:02 PM EDT
Could you imagine groups if 30 A-10s straffing that beach for hours.  

Txl
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:31:56 PM EDT
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Send in the Metal Gears.   A swarm of Metal Gear Rex's would do a number on a beachhead.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:33:10 PM EDT
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[b]Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:[/

Remember, this isn't against sheep herding Taliban. We're talking a similarly advanced military force. Much like the actual event but with modern tech. We have it. They have it. Would we even get near a beach? Would their be a massive naval battle preceding any actual landing attempt?
View Quote


I would think that if they have comparable tech to us they would attack our fleet. We would lose some ships to subs and missiles.  We would have to destroy their airbases, missile installations, air defenses, ships, and subs before we could attempt an amphibious landing.
Close air support would be needed against defending ground forces and you wouldn't get them all. We would take heavy loses.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:35:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2015 8:36:29 PM EDT by Fulminata]


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Originally Posted By TxLewis:



Could you imagine groups if 30 A-10s straffing that beach for hours.  





Txl
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Well if we're gonna go all Final Countdown and be sending A-10s back to '44 then I can see the A-10 pilots tuning into German coms, "Oh you have a Hitler's buzzaw? How quaint. Check this shit out Hans in: 3, 2, 1..."





 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:40:47 PM EDT
The enemy sould have guns similar to our Phalanx, anti-missile missiles, anti-air missiles, right?  They can shoot down your missiles and launch missiles at your bombers.  They'd also have artillary and stuff like MLRS that could drop a load of hurt on wherever you try to establish yourself.  Seems like it would be pretty messy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:40:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2015 8:44:30 PM EDT by Dan_Cooper]
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Assuming we had to land against a similarly advanced military with years to fortify a beachhead against a landing.

Could we- the U.S. Military actually get a foot hold and take the beach and advance?

View Quote


Yes, with a far lower casualty rate than in '44.  They didn't really have CAS on the beaches in Normandy, not by today's standards.  I don't care if they have years to fortify.  Building static fortifications amounts to building your own tomb.  Precision guided munitions would do a far better job softening things up than what was done in the run up to D-day.





Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:42:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Well if we're gonna go all Final Countdown and be sending A-10s back to '44 then I can see the A-10 pilots tuning into German coms, "Oh you have a Hitler's buzzaw? How quaint. Check this shit out Hans in: 3, 2, 1..."
 
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Could you imagine groups if 30 A-10s straffing that beach for hours.  

Txl

Well if we're gonna go all Final Countdown and be sending A-10s back to '44 then I can see the A-10 pilots tuning into German coms, "Oh you have a Hitler's buzzaw? How quaint. Check this shit out Hans in: 3, 2, 1..."
 

How about a couple MOABs dropped on Panzer groups?
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:53:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:55:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bradders:
Coastal defences are probably no match for a Tomahawk in the same way a LCT is no match for a Milan, TOW or even a Carl Gustav or LAW
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Tomahawk with a W80 warhead, yes.

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 9:05:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 9:05:48 PM EDT
Had the Germans not removed the artillery battery from Pointe du Hoc, and the 12th SS and Panzer Lehr were engaged at the beginning, the Normandy landing would have ended much differently.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 9:10:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Could you imagine groups if 30 A-10s straffing that beach for hours.  

Txl
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I'd like to preorder my ticket to this movie.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 9:12:31 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:
Chemical weapons, too.



We were TIRED of dealing with their ornery asses.



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Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:



Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:


Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:

We were planning on softening up mainland Japan with a carpet of nukes before we invaded.



No reason that wouldn't work today.









Really? I didn't know that.




Chemical weapons, too.



We were TIRED of dealing with their ornery asses.





Only one I've heard of was the actual invasion...where we expected a shit ton of losses.



As in...the Purple Hearts minted for the invasion literally didn't run out until the late 80s...and that was mostly b/c they apparently have a shelf life and had to start being replaced by new ones.



 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 10:14:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Cooper:


Yes, with a far lower casualty rate than in '44.  They didn't really have CAS on the beaches in Normandy, not by today's standards.  I don't care if they have years to fortify.  Building static fortifications amounts to building your own tomb.  Precision guided munitions would do a far better job softening things up than what was done in the run up to D-day.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Cooper:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Assuming we had to land against a similarly advanced military with years to fortify a beachhead against a landing.

Could we- the U.S. Military actually get a foot hold and take the beach and advance?



Yes, with a far lower casualty rate than in '44.  They didn't really have CAS on the beaches in Normandy, not by today's standards.  I don't care if they have years to fortify.  Building static fortifications amounts to building your own tomb.  Precision guided munitions would do a far better job softening things up than what was done in the run up to D-day.



I don't believe that at all. Just the approach of a naval force would elicit a response. How close can a landing force get? Do you not think positions can be hardened to withstand most munitions?

I've built 2000lb JDAM and "bunker buster" PGM. I know what they can do. But given time, can't most weapons be defended against to some degree.

While I think the pre assault would be much different than '44 I think the casualty rate would probably be worse. May not all be on the beach but over all I don't see few casualties being the case.



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