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Posted: 5/21/2005 4:32:13 AM EST
Police Say Crowd Cheered as Gary, Indiana Officer was Attacked


ASSOCIATED PRESS


GARY, Ind. (AP) -- Authorities say about 10 people urged a man on as he attacked a city police officer who had responded to a domestic dispute call.

Patrolman Carl Cochran was investigating the call Wednesday night when he was attacked unprovoked by Kelvin D. Banks, Lt. Roger Smith said.

Both men were on the ground and a group of residents were crowded around urging Banks to keep up the attack, Smith said. Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!''

Eventually, Patrolman Richard Knight arrived and saw his partner struggling with Banks. The two officers were able to subdue Banks.

Banks was charged Thursday in Lake Superior Court with counts of battery, resisting law enforcement, intimidation and disorderly conduct, said Diane Poulton, spokeswoman for the county prosecutor's office.

Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began.

Police Cmdr. Jerome Krebes said Thursday he ordered additional patrols in the neighborhood because of the crowd's response to the incident.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:39:45 AM EST
All depends on the neighborhood.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:46:06 AM EST
Why would a cop be sent into the "hood" without backup?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:52:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!''

Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began.



The real insult will come when Banks is found not guilty of all charges. That's what happens when you get a brainless jury pool to hear the case.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:56:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 4:57:59 AM EST by warlord]

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!''

Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began.



The real insult will come when Banks is found not guilty of all charges. That's what happens when you get a brainless jury pool to hear the case.


That's what happens when people avoid jury duty. You get what's left, and those who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:57:09 AM EST
Wonder if all that states laws allow those 10 people to be likewise charged for "acting in concert" with the assaultive guy for their failure to stop his attack and by encouraging him to continue the attack. That would change their tune a bit I think.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:58:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!''

Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began.



The real insult will come when Banks is found not guilty of all charges. That's what happens when you get a brainless jury pool to hear the case.


That's what happens when people avoid jury duty. You get what's left, and those that aren't small enough to get out of jury duty.



That is one thing that I am itching to do is be on a jury. The only time that I was called was when I was in college and was unable to travel the 180 miles back home.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:03:28 AM EST
hmmm....maybe the po po should just avoid responding to calls in this neighborhood for a couple of weeks. A sort of "fu** you" to show how they feel...a geographical sick out, sort of.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:09:41 AM EST
Build a wall. Cut off services. Stop taxing the community and let the form their own township and tax and police themselves. They'll self-exterminate themselves and mankind will be all the better.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:09:53 AM EST
You know, I'm one of the 1st to comdemn "JBT'ism" - but that crowd sounds like it could USE a good clubbing.... It doesn't sound like the officer was seriously injured - and I'm glad for that - although the potential for serious injury or death was certainly there... I don't envy the job LEOs do....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:11:29 AM EST
That's not right treating the police like the pizza man.

Just kiddin'.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:18:20 AM EST
Werent areas in Los Angeles avoided by police? "The Jungle?" et al

Like, werent there areas where ambulances needed police escort, and police would "get busy" with other stuff when they were called to escort to unfriendly neighborhoods?

Everyone knows the residents call Jesse Jackson and it's "racist." But back to reality for a second, how is it viewed by people that matter? Upper echelons of police and local government, I mean. How does the rest of the community feel about it?

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:38:00 AM EST
yeah hurray!!! Ha ha those filthy cops deserve what they get.......
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:39:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By 4v50:
Build a wall. Cut off services. Stop taxing the community and let the form their own township and tax and police themselves. They'll self-exterminate themselves and mankind will be all the better.



+1
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:40:34 AM EST
Took place in Gary, Indiana. Why does this not surprise me. Criminals are becoming more and more brazen while cops are having there hands tied more and more by PC BS.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:43:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Cochran, a five-year veteran and member of the department's SWAT team, said Banks choked him and told him: ''I could kill you right now if I wanted to!''

Cochran was speaking to a woman and Banks, who appeared to be joking and ''engaging in horseplay'' when the woman ran behind Cochran and asked him to protect her. Cochran reported he put his hand out to stop Banks from continuing toward the woman when Banks tackled Cochran's legs and the fight began.



The real insult will come when Banks is found not guilty of all charges. That's what happens when you get a brainless jury pool to hear the case.


That's what happens when people avoid jury duty. You get what's left, and those who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty[/red].






Skip out on your civic responsibility often?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:43:37 AM EST
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers. I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.

We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:43:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By anagram-sam:

Originally Posted By 4v50:
Build a wall. Cut off services. Stop taxing the community and let the form their own township and tax and police themselves. They'll self-exterminate themselves and mankind will be all the better.



+1



+1 googleplex

COC prohibits me from posting the sad truth.


Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:51:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By POWER03:
The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.


The officers of Rockwells era didn't face some of the issues officers todays face. The SWAT team guys don't work their daily shifts wearing all that gear. Most agencies have part time teams, and the majority of their time is spent in standard LEO uniform.So don't even try to go there.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:52:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.


The officers of Rockwells era didn't face some of the issues officers todays face. The SWAT team guys don't work their daily shifts wearing all that gear. Most agencies have part time teams, and the majority of their time is spent in standard LEO uniform.So don't even try to go there.




So, you think I'm wrong?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:52:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers. I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.

We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.



and yet these guys are willing to lay it on the line when it counts if your family would require their assistance........
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:53:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By VTwin60:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers. I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.

We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.



and yet these guys are willing to lay it on the line when it counts if your family would require their assistance........




You are either a cop or in denial.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:55:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By POWER03:



You are either a cop or in denial.



neither, I'm in what they call................reality.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:56:03 AM EST
How did someone get close enough to choke a SWAT team member without several 9mm perforations in his chest?........Also the second officer showed alot of restraint......If I was the second officer and I show up to a wrestling match between another officer and a bad guy, the bad guy is dead......
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:56:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By m193:
Why would a cop be sent into the "hood" without backup?



mabye he had a glok fo tee
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:01:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers. I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.

We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.



In defense of AR15Fan...and we have had our significant differences of opinion, he does on occasion, post stories about rogue or crooked cops and makes no apologies for those cases where it is plain that the officer committed some sort of malfeasance. Obviously, the volume of those posts is much lower but I suspect that part of that is because someone usually beats him to the punch on the naughty JBT stories.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:09:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Wonder if all that states laws allow those 10 people to be likewise charged for "acting in concert" with the assaultive guy for their failure to stop his attack and by encouraging him to continue the attack. That would change their tune a bit I think.



Yeah, the state should be able to charge them with something, I hope. If nothing else, maybe loitering.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:19:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 6:21:07 AM EST by legalese77]

Originally Posted By packnru:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Wonder if all that states laws allow those 10 people to be likewise charged for "acting in concert" with the assaultive guy for their failure to stop his attack and by encouraging him to continue the attack. That would change their tune a bit I think.



Yeah, the state should be able to charge them with something, I hope. If nothing else, maybe loitering.



In Illinois, at least in this county, some would almost surely have been charged with "mob action"



720 ILCS 5/25-1

Formerly cited as IL ST CH 38 ¶ 25-1

West's Smith-hurd Illinois Compiled Statutes Annotated Currentness


Chapter 720. Criminal Offenses

Criminal Code

Act 5. Criminal Code of 1961 (Refs & Annos)

Title III. Specific Offenses

Part D. Offenses Affecting Public Health, Safety and Decency

Article 25. Mob Action and Related Offenses (Refs & Annos)

5/25-1. Mob action



§ 25-1. Mob action.


(a) Mob action consists of any of the following:


(1) The use of force or violence disturbing the public peace by 2 or more persons acting together and without authority of law; or

(2) The assembly of 2 or more persons to do an unlawful act; or

(3) The assembly of 2 or more persons, without authority of law, for the purpose of doing violence to the person or property of any one supposed to have been guilty of a violation of the law, or for the purpose of exercising correctional powers or regulative powers over any person by violence.


(b) Mob action as defined in paragraph (1) of subsection (a) is a Class 4 felony.


(c) Mob action as defined in paragraphs (2) and (3) of subsection (a) is a Class C misdemeanor.


(d) Any participant in a mob action which shall by violence inflict injury to the person or property of another commits a Class 4 felony.


(e) Any participant in a mob action who does not withdraw on being commanded to do so by any peace officer commits a Class A misdemeanor.


(f) In addition to any other sentence that may be imposed, a court shall order any person convicted of mob action to perform community service for not less than 30 and not more than 120 hours, if community service is available in the jurisdiction and is funded and approved by the county board of the county where the offense was committed. In addition, whenever any person is placed on supervision for an alleged offense under this Section, the supervision shall be conditioned upon the performance of the community service.


This subsection does not apply when the court imposes a sentence of incarceration.



A potential felony to boot! Hey there go your guns and what meager political participation you have! In this county, at least, it would be easy to convict those gathered to root on the pugilist.. so they better hope they have a clean record and can cop a plea to a misdemeanor.

Interesting how, in Illinois, two people constitutes a mob. Hey, I bet you could get a separate conspiracy to commit mob action conviction anytime you can obtain the mob action conviction itself.

Typically, whenever a fight breaks out in this jurisdiction, all participants are charged with mob action.

That having been said, people are animals and if Roman style gladiator games and other similar spectacles were available, they would draw a larger crowd than any other form of spectacle (entertainment).
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:24:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 6:28:35 AM EST by 91stsps]
Can anyone tell us the racial make-up of the "community" where this happened? I DO NOT want to make this a _____ race always acts this way. I am just wondering that is all. Back in the day we would have beat the hell out of everyone who stood around and cheered then let them go to their homes and lick their wounds! Wood shampoo's and Kel-Lite conditioners for all.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:10:27 AM EST
Let's just say Gary Indiana ain't a nice place!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:16:20 AM EST
Yeah, Gary isnt exactly a warm fuzzy kind of place.

in the end, He should have shot him.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 8:23:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By MattyMattel:
Let's just say Gary Indiana ain't a nice place!



+1 Every time Chicago takes a shit, Gary gets a little bigger...
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 9:15:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By johnnyrebel:
mabye he had a glok fo tee



Ha ha ha! Oh gosh that's funny! That's really funny!
Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that
is so fresh. "Glock Fo-tee". You know, I've, I've never
heard anyone make that joke before. Hmm. You're the
first. I've never heard anyone reference, reference that
outside the video before. Because that's what he says
on the video, right? Isn't it? "Glock fo-tee". And, and
yet you've taken that and used it out of context to
joke about a cop being beaten up.

God, what a clever, smart person you must be, to
come up with a joke like that all by yourself.

That's so fresh too.

Any, any MARPAT or PIE! jokes you want to throw in
too as long as we're hitting these phenomena at the
height of their popularity.

God, you're so funny!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:04:33 AM EST

In Illinois, at least in this county, some would almost surely have been charged with "mob action"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

720 ILCS 5/25-1

Formerly cited as IL ST CH 38 ¶ 25-1

West's Smith-hurd Illinois Compiled Statutes Annotated Currentness


Chapter 720. Criminal Offenses

Criminal Code

Act 5. Criminal Code of 1961 (Refs & Annos)

Title III. Specific Offenses

Part D. Offenses Affecting Public Health, Safety and Decency

Article 25. Mob Action and Related Offenses (Refs & Annos)

5/25-1. Mob action



§ 25-1. Mob action.


(a) Mob action consists of any of the following:


(1) The use of force or violence disturbing the public peace by 2 or more persons acting together and without authority of law; or

(2) The assembly of 2 or more persons to do an unlawful act; or

(3) The assembly of 2 or more persons, without authority of law, for the purpose of doing violence to the person or property of any one supposed to have been guilty of a violation of the law, or for the purpose of exercising correctional powers or regulative powers over any person by violence.


(b) Mob action as defined in paragraph (1) of subsection (a) is a Class 4 felony.


(c) Mob action as defined in paragraphs (2) and (3) of subsection (a) is a Class C misdemeanor.


(d) Any participant in a mob action which shall by violence inflict injury to the person or property of another commits a Class 4 felony.


(e) Any participant in a mob action who does not withdraw on being commanded to do so by any peace officer commits a Class A misdemeanor.


(f) In addition to any other sentence that may be imposed, a court shall order any person convicted of mob action to perform community service for not less than 30 and not more than 120 hours, if community service is available in the jurisdiction and is funded and approved by the county board of the county where the offense was committed. In addition, whenever any person is placed on supervision for an alleged offense under this Section, the supervision shall be conditioned upon the performance of the community service.


This subsection does not apply when the court imposes a sentence of incarceration.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




A potential felony to boot! Hey there go your guns and what meager political participation you have! In this county, at least, it would be easy to convict those gathered to root on the pugilist.. so they better hope they have a clean record and can cop a plea to a misdemeanor.

Interesting how, in Illinois, two people constitutes a mob. Hey, I bet you could get a separate conspiracy to commit mob action conviction anytime you can obtain the mob action conviction itself.

Typically, whenever a fight breaks out in this jurisdiction, all participants are charged with mob action.





And you guys WONDER why people hate the police?? Please! I because of reasons like you posted above. Basically laws are written so that cops can basically arrest you for any made up thing. Then it's up to you, helpless non lawyer citizen to wrangle yourself out of the legal harrassment. For example you're walking down the road and a cop approaches you, you have no ID and no money, They can arrest you for that!! You should be able to walk the US streets without ID or money!! call me crazy?? Or if your with four friends and one gets drunk and ends up fighting with a cop so they can arrest you for being in a mob? That is total bullshit and you know it, but hey thats the law right? and the law is the law
Another of the JBT's greatist hits is the 'disorderly conduct' charge, basically they can arrest you for any old BS they dream up and it's your word against theirs. I saw on cops TV show a bunch of BS but the cops acted like it was totally normal what they did. One was a woman on a beach at night who thought her husband was drowned so they called the cops, then he came ashore, it was a misunderstanding, so they arrested him for swimming at night!! (disorderly conduct) Then I saw one where they arrested a woman for blocking a driveway with her car. Arrested for blocking a driveway!! And no she did'nt back talk or become argumentative beforehand. It's this kinda BS and not "speeding tickets" that make most people not like the policia.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:10:18 AM EST
The one interesting thing about these threads is how they always attract posters from the :Bizarro" dimension.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:20:26 AM EST
Officers don't travel in pairs in Gary, Indiana? WTF? That should be mandatory.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:24:40 AM EST
And THATS why I started training in submission grappling. A very inexperienced grappler can ruin your day if you don't know what they are doing and have no defense/offense to take-downs and ground fighting.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:25:20 AM EST
He threatened his life and had a hold of him!!! Time to pull, Aim, Squeeze!!!! Repeat as neccesary unitl guy using deadly force has table turned on him in your favor!!!

If he was choking him thats deadly force in Pennsylvania!!

Then if crowd is upset turn facing them with remaining ammo and yell....."NEXT!"
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:28:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:31:31 AM EST
This sort of thing isn't new, or limited to "bad" neighborhoods.

About 20 years ago there was an infamous case of a Dallas police officer that got in a fight on a downtown street in broad daylight.
The attacker got the officers .41 Magnum and held him at gun point.

A mixed crowd of people, some of them wearing business suits egged the guy on telling him to shoot.

He killed the officer with his own gun while the crowd cheered.

You'll also see this irrational behavior in crowds gathered at a suicidal jumper, chanting for him to jump.

"Bad" neighborhoods may be more prone to it, but when you've got white guys in three piece suits doing it, it's something more than the neighborhood.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:44:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
God, you're so funny!



The Family Guy, right?



Yeah.

My appologies to johnnyrebel for using
his post as an excuse to whip out that
reference.

But he deserved it...I hate the "Glock
Fo-tee" meme.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:48:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 10:53:03 AM EST
I find it hard to ever excuse attacking a police officer, or anyone else for that matter. I am puzzled as to why this officer was attending to a domestic disturbance call unassisted though. Sheesh around this neck of the woods the police (often in their SWAT gear that they PATROL in) will assemble 8 to 10 squad cars to investigate a fender bender on a side street!

As far as public perception of the police, I think if they would start investigating crimes and truly looking out for the public's interests rather than only enforcing revenue-generating stuff like speeding and seat belts it would go a long ways towards winning back public trust. Instead they would rather conduct sting operations against minimum wage gas station attendants for tobacco or alcohol sales, or enforce victimless seat belt laws and the like.

Don't believe me? Wait until you get burglarized or threatened by someone and the police do NOTHING. It's happened to me more than once. Bottom line seemed to be that there was no fine to collect, so they didn't want to waste their time investigating or prosecuting it. They need the prison space for the criminals they can get newpaper or TV coverage on when they bust them...

Another thing that would go a long way is if these departments would purge out the little thug bastards that seem to think their badge is their personal ticket to get even with the world. Usually these guys are pretty easy to pick out from a mile away. They're the guys wearing body armor over their uniforms and telling everyone only they are professional enough to carry a Glock fo-tee... he he he... Sorry that was just a joke! :)
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:14:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:16:42 AM EST by easy610]
Any other leos out there can relate. We've all been sent on "man and woman arguing out front of home/business" runs. You get there first and make contact just standing there with the two as your back-up second officer is close by and soon to arrive. Good idea? No. Do cops do it? Yes, all the time, all around the world.

I agree with one of the previous posts. We had a local leo chase a car and when it stopped, the BG got out and ran at the officer taking him to the ground next to his patrol car. The BG got the upper hand and choked out the cop but didn't kill him or take his gun. Just a psycho driving like an ass and waiting to get stopped and he had a plan. Was standing over the downed officer when the next officer showed up. Turned out to be a nut-job, go figure!

If you're getting choked out, it is lethal force time, guys. You CANNOT afford the choke senario to occur. Too easy to pass out...the BG then kills you...takes your gun and kills another....whatever....all bad results.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 11:43:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 11:44:59 AM EST by Tango7]

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers.



Maybe one thread... these of course are countered by the dozen or so daily threads based on...


stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.


Should one automatically negate the other? A crooked cop got outed, so let's have a free for all... (ETA - I forgot... this is GD)

Ooooh, look, a cop got caught taking a bribe in LA... Here I am in Iowa... F*CK ALL THE COPS!!! THEY'RE ALL CROOKS!!!

My neighbor's cousin's best friend's brother had a cop tell a judge he was speeding when he wasn't... F*CK ALL THE COPS!!! THERE ALL LIARS!!!

Using that type of logic processing, since several hundred people have used guns to commit violent crimes, all of the millions of legal gun owners should immediately be stripped of their weapons....

Hey, wait a minute, where have we heard that before?

I agree that there a bad cops out there. No argument whatsoever.

I also agree that criminals hiding behind badges belong in a special section of hell.

Luckily for myself, and our citizens, I also know several dozen good cops who truly try to "serve and protect" the members of our community. I think that the majority of the ARFCOM community, as well as the whole of the US population could describe similar observations - that is, the good or at least the neutral (OK, not blatantly criminal for the sake of this bash) outweighing the bad.

I also know that stories like the ones you describe generate more publicity (ie revenue) for news outlets than the ones where bad things happen to LEO's.

A (former) LEO friend of mine explained it thusly -

when someone calls the fire department, everybody is happy to see them.

When someone calls the cops, at least one of the parties involved won't be happy by the end of the visit.

Generally, even the party that is doing the requesting isn't happy to see the cops, but they can't deal with the situation at hand and so they begrudgingly turn to (us).

And, as we've seen on the nightly news, you can always find a dozen of so folks who are associates of the person in question who'll step up to swear before a slew of TV cameras that the person was an honor roll student, member of the church choir who was on his way to visit shut-ins, and had absolutely nothing to do with anything illegal... .


We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.



In the old days, more "abuse" took place, actually. The police were feared/respected more, and as a result fewer people engaged in behavior that was likely to involve them... ie...

if you ran, you got your ass kicked.
if you fought, you got your ass kicked.
if you gave a BS license or warrant status, you got your ass kicked.

Of course, most of the folks that engaged in that type of behavior were usually well known on a professional basis to the local authorities, so the PD usually left the "ordinary" citizens alone.

Since the PD's have been so effectively leashed by several SCOTUS decisions, "abuse" has decreased. But the degree of BS had increased. Consider the amount of paperwork that goes into a routine traffic stop. To minimize "racial profiling", PD's in IL are now required to fill out survey cards describing the racial makeup of people they stop for traffic infractions - even if they issue verbal warnings. These cards must be completed, even though existing federal law prohibits the officers from asking the poeple they stop questions of that nature

The result? More folks will get written warnings, or citations, for offenses that normally would have been dealt with by a verbal now result in paperwork and $$$ out of pocket.

In addition, as far as the issues posted by t-stox:


For example you're walking down the road and a cop approaches you, you have no ID and no money, They can arrest you for that!! You should be able to walk the US streets without ID or money!! call me crazy??


It seems your issue actually concerns two separate laws.

The first concerns providing identification. If I told you the number of times I've been asked a patient their name and they tell me "...but that's not the name I gave the po-lice", you wouldn't believe me.

Most of the laws concerning proving one's identity were written to deal with career or habitual criminals intentionally providing the PD with false information in an attempt to avoid detection due to outstanding arrest warrants or an exisitng criminal record that would increase the possibility of arrest for the current infraction.

The law you're referring to concerning money is most likely a law concerning vagrancy. The "good citizens" didn't want folks coming into towns to mooch / panhandle or "pester" the resident of the community (taxpayers). (Some of these laws predate the 1930's, but many are referred to as "hobo" acts - a reference to "undomiciled" individuals who would wander from town to town seeking employment, shelter, and food. Of course, back then the "concerned citizens" weren't referred to as NIMBYS)

They couldn't outlaw folks for just being out of towners, so they considered what most "vagrants" didn't have - ID's and $$. I remember a book about "living on the cheap" in the 1970's counseling readers to always keep $2.15 cents on their person in NYC if they had no ID proving a residential address - $2.10 being the magic threshold somehow for the determination of being a vagrant or not.


Once again, a primer in the american legal system...

politicans write the laws...

police enforce the laws....

judges administer the laws.

If you don't like the laws, petition your city council / village board / town elders to change or rescind the laws in question.

As far as the one concerning ID or money. I doubt they will, however, since it gives their police some ability to "deal" with the mentally disturbed homeless guy who is sleeping in the city park, as well as the guy who tells the cops his name is "Elvis Presley" when it isn't to avoid going to jail for an outstanding warrant.


Or if your with four friends and one gets drunk and ends up fighting with a cop so they can arrest you for being in a mob? That is total bullshit and you know it, but hey thats the law right? and the law is the law


How exactly doea one "end up fighting with a cop" by accident? You make it sound as if one could as easily wind up trading punches with the po-po as sneezing. Usually, the steps from truly "minding one's own business" to being arrested for Ag Assault on an LEO are numerous, and documented.

And IMHO if you and your three other buddies are sitting around yelling "YOU GO, BUBBA!!! BEAT THAT PIG!!! WHIP HIS ASS!" instead of trying to restrain your friend, maybe you deserve the charge... and a healthy dosing of OC

As far as the two DC charges you list, I think they're BS as well, but in our town it is illegal to park blocking a driveway... unless it's your own.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:05:17 PM EST
EXCELLENT post Tango7.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:12:05 PM EST
Same here. +1 Tango7
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:13:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Everyday there is thread started by AR15fan that decries the treatment of police officers. I bet for every story like this, there are a thousand stories about police inefficiency, corruption, mistreatment of non-convicted persons, wrong-address raids, false arrests, brutality, strong-arm tactics, civilian shake-downs just to generate revenue, late night fishing expeditions because some patrolman was bored and a dozen other things cops get away with on a daily basis just becasue they have a badge that DO NOT get reported because no one was there other than the cop and the cop's victim.

We live a society steadily creeping toward the draconian one Orwell wrote about in 1984 and the everyday police officer is as much a part of this as the Homeland Security Department. The days of the Norman Rockwell police officer are over. Think of that famous painting as you look at the SWAT teams which are better outfitted and as well trained as any soldier fighting in Iraq right now.

It's for our protection, though.



AR15Fan posts a lot of those too. Observe a little longer before you start bashing somebody.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:14:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By 4v50:
Build a wall. Cut off services. Stop taxing the community and let the form their own township and tax and police themselves. They'll self-exterminate themselves and mankind will be all the better.




Home run! I have often said we should build a wall around some neighborhoods here, throw arms and ammo over the top, then come back in 10 years to bulldoze them, clean them up, and start over.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:18:40 PM EST
no officer should ever have to patrol alone. cops should always be in twos the partner system.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:21:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
The one interesting thing about these threads is how they always attract posters from the :Bizarro" dimension.



It always is quite interesting.
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