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Posted: 8/9/2011 1:24:36 PM EDT
I haven't shot beyond 100 yards as that's the max at my local range. I've got a standard 14.5 BCM middy with an aimpoint. Using my existing rifle if I threw on a variable power optic like an accupoint what could I expect range wise if I wanted to shoot at a longer distance?

Any good books or websites on this subject?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:26:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 1:38:49 PM EDT by RunsBellows]
Only one way to know for sure... try it.

ETA: 3X magnifyer with a flip to the side mount. You already have the aimpoint, go with it. Larue has some good package deals.

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Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:28:12 PM EDT
I'd say you could hit the target out to about 1000 yards.

Just depends on how big the target is....
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:28:28 PM EDT
Keep it under 300 and you should be good
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:33:36 PM EDT
Knowing your bullet trajectory is a good place to start.

Putting ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity, height of sights/scope above bore, etc. into a ballistic calculator (Strelok is great if you have an android phone) will tell you how distance/wind and such affect the flight of a bullet and make shooting a longer distances a bit easier.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:37:26 PM EDT
With decent-quality ammunition, in weights 55gr+, there's no reason you couldn't hit a target at least to 300m. Longer, if the ammo and the shooter are up to it.

Won't be a sub-MOA performance at that range, most likely, but it should be doable.

Personally, I'd suggest investing in some decent 60+gr ammunition, and if you want to stretch out to 500 or so, consider investing in "match"-quality ammo.

Sure, a 14.5" bbl'd AR with an optic (or a good shot with irons) and ball ammo should be capable of hitting a reasonable-size target at that distance, but given that acceptance spec for ball is something like 4MOA, the best you could hope for is about a 16-20" group (of 10 rounds or more).

Enjoy, and come back with pics and range reports!
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:37:56 PM EDT
Honestly, don't know till you try. I suggest you look up Suarez International and see if they have any of their long range carbine courses near you. (Excellent training)

Failing that, I also suggest you look up your local shooting club and see if they have service rifle or High power rifle matches.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:39:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 1:40:10 PM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]
Aim small, miss small.



Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:39:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:
I haven't shot beyond 100 yards as that's the max at my local range. I've got a standard 14.5 BCM middy with an aimpoint. Using my existing rifle if I threw on a variable power optic like an accupoint what could I expect range wise if I wanted to shoot at a longer distance?

Any good books or websites on this subject?


Keep a log book. If you are accurate at 100 yards try expanding your range in 25 yard increments, logging exactly what your ammo does at each range bracket. Be sure to use consistent ammunition to maintain validity.

Once you get past 300 yards or so, wind drift and ambient temperature start to play a noticeable role.

The best thing you can do is make a thorough record of your shooting as you expand your range. If you do your part, your AR can be very accurate to 550 meters and beyond.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:42:16 PM EDT
Hitting 4'' clays out to 250 is easy with an Eotech, just sell your aimpoint and buy one
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:44:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:44:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Casimir_Pulaski:
Hitting 4'' clays out to 250 is easy with an Eotech, just sell your aimpoint and buy one


Blocking out the clay with a big glob of red haze would be detrimental to distance shooting, haha. AP FTW!!!


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Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:46:19 PM EDT
65 MOA circle with 1 MOA dot>4 MOA dot
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:49:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Casimir_Pulaski:
65 MOA circle with 1 MOA dot>4 MOA dot


yup
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:53:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
Originally Posted By Casimir_Pulaski:
65 MOA circle with 1 MOA dot>4 MOA dot


yup


Yep
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 1:57:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bslate07:

Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
Originally Posted By Casimir_Pulaski:
65 MOA circle with 1 MOA dot>4 MOA dot


yup


Yep

TA33 w/ green chevron > Aimpoint/EOTech........if you know how to use the ACOG as both a red dot and longer range optic
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:17:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 2:20:12 PM EDT by reelserious]
If you were to get a Burris scope with the ballistic Plex reticule it works almost perfectly for a 55 gr bullet. Hash marks for 2,3,4 hundred yards. takes all the thinking out of it. Inexpensive scope also. Doesn't work for all calibers but does for 5.56 with 55 bullets.



http://swfa.com/Burris-Fullfield-II-Rifle-Scopes-C56.aspx
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:17:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fivepointoh:

Originally Posted By bslate07:

Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
Originally Posted By Casimir_Pulaski:
65 MOA circle with 1 MOA dot>4 MOA dot


yup


Yep

TA33 w/ green chevron > Aimpoint/EOTech........if you know how to use the ACOG as both a red dot and longer range optic


I don't think anyone could argue that the ACOG isn't better for longer range shots. The point is that for non-magnified optics, an EoTech beats an Aimpoint
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:22:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:30:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
I don't think anyone could argue that the ACOG isn't better for longer range shots. The point is that for non-magnified optics, an EoTech beats an Aimpoint


I've owned and used both.

When I didn't need reading glasses I greatly prefered the EOTech. However, now that I need reading glasses, I find the larger dot of the Aimpoint easier for close up work.


I know what you mean. I have some astigmatism and my EoTech is a little blurry without my glasses. Fortunately I had a prescription set of amber shooting glasses made of a high impact polycarbonate material which solves that little problem. I had my regular (clear) day to day glasses made from the same stuff.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:38:44 PM EDT
Thanks for all the advice.

Is there a variable power optic out there that can be dialed back to no magnification and act like a standard aimpoint?
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:53:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 2:53:57 PM EDT by purevl2]
Originally Posted By Danj:
Thanks for all the advice.

Is there a variable power optic out there that can be dialed back to no magnification and act like a standard aimpoint?


Elcan Specter 1-4x
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 2:55:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:
Thanks for all the advice.

Is there a variable power optic out there that can be dialed back to no magnification and act like a standard aimpoint?


Burris and Bushnell both make a 1x-5x optic. (The Burris might be a 4.5x, I cannot remember)They work fine. Crosshairs though, no red-dot.

Look at the Redfield Revolution line of scopes. They make a 2X x 7X scope with a range finding reticle that's solid (made by Leupold) and costs about $190. I have one on a .308 Remington and the system is very simple to use.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:04:21 PM EDT
NRA or CMP high power will teach you more than anything else how to be proficient with your rifle at distance (600 to 200 yards).

Additionally, the Cmp website www.odcmp.com has many resources that will help you become a better shot.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:08:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 3:09:50 PM EDT by AFSOC]
I shot my 14.5 M4 standing off hand at 600 meters "Minute of Dude" accuracy...
1:7 with M855 Using a Trijicon Reflex, a MATECH rear and standard M4 Front Sight (more the irons than the Reflex)

Three points of contact, Trigger Squeeze, and Breathing...
Same rules of marksmanship work at 600 that work at 100...
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:13:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
Aim small, miss small.

I rarely use scope on my Black Rifle, and I normally shoot from 100 to 200 yards. From time to time I go beyond and shoot out to 400 yards with iron sights. Except for making sure the further targets are larger I don't do a single thing differently from 100 yards.

If you want to try shooting past 100 yards,
Just Do It.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:17:01 PM EDT
The farthest I have went out with irons was 375. Using a 16 inch rra rifle, matech rear sight and XM193 55 gr ammo. Consistently get torso shots on a silhouette target, the hits are not sub MOA groups but they are hits.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:19:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:20:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Same rules of marksmanship work at 600 that work at 100...


Except at 600 the errors are magnified - and you need to compensate for wind...


and mirage.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:23:44 PM EDT
Assuming that you're zeroed an inch or three high at 100, shooting out to 300 is a no-brainer, really. Just do it.

Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:40:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RunsBellows:
Only one way to know for sure... try it.

ETA: 3X magnifyer with a flip to the side mount. You already have the aimpoint, go with it. Larue has some good package deals.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


typical GD response buy fucking hardware which in reality is the WRONG answer.

Go take a class OP. while not perfect attend a couple three appleseed shoots till you earn that rifleman patch. its cheap training at $80 or so a weekend.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:45:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Same rules of marksmanship work at 600 that work at 100...


Except at 600 the errors are magnified - and you need to compensate for wind...


and mirage.


AND the basics are still the basics... Errors are Errors whether at 600 or 100 or 1000
Cant figures in as well when you get out there a ways...
not so much at 100 unless it is a ridiculous cant!

Three Points of Contact, Trigger Control and Breathing... All the rest will come with practice.
Minute of dude is what you can hope for. Not competition accurate but can be done.
I have shot competition out to a grand... The basics still apply, if you don't know the basics then long range is just not going to happen.
Reading the wind and mirage is not something that can just be taught over the interweb... you have to SHOOT...
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 3:53:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By purevl2:
Originally Posted By Danj:
Thanks for all the advice.

Is there a variable power optic out there that can be dialed back to no magnification and act like a standard aimpoint?


Elcan Specter 1-4x
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/136/136723.jpg


Not worth the money.
To answer the OP's effective range question, the carbine is built to be a 4 MOA weapon. A torso size target is 40"x 19".
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 4:03:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:
Thanks for all the advice.

Is there a variable power optic out there that can be dialed back to no magnification and act like a standard aimpoint?


On a budget, check out the Primary Arms 1-4. It's got a dot at the center with illumination so it's similar in feel to a red dot at 1X. Note that NO standard optic is like a regular red dot when it comes to eye relief/position flexibility, even at 1X it's still not the same optically.

The Elcan gets good marks, so does the Vortex Viper PST, there are a few others. The Leupold MkIV CQ/T is similar in concept and has truly great glass but I can't say I'm impressed with it otherwise. The eye relief changes drastically between 1 and 3x, you're nearly touching for 3x. It's rather large and heavy given the cost, apparently none of the engineering budget was spent on making it more compact and light weight.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 4:53:54 PM EDT
Recently I took my 6920 out to 400 and 600 yards. The carbine only has an aimpoint t-1. It's possible. I could only hit the 600 steel sporadically but at 400 I was getting good his the majority of the time. The focus needed made me a better shooter in general.

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Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:01:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Howie_Phelterbush:
Originally Posted By RunsBellows:
Only one way to know for sure... try it.

ETA: 3X magnifyer with a flip to the side mount. You already have the aimpoint, go with it. Larue has some good package deals.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


typical GD response buy fucking hardware which in reality is the WRONG answer.

Go take a class OP. while not perfect attend a couple three appleseed shoots till you earn that rifleman patch. its cheap training at $80 or so a weekend.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org


I'm sure appleseed is great, but the addiction to formal training around here is insane. People were hitting targets at the ranges the OP wants to shoot long before appleseed came along. It's really not that hard.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:03:21 PM EDT
I've nailed the shit out of a 12" gong at 320yds with my 10.5in SBR with a Aimpoint. I probably wouldn't try shooting it past 400yds unless I had to.

I'd just say don't have unrealistic expectations. You DO have a shorter barreled rifle which is going to limit your velocity. I wouldn't put anything larger than an AGOC on a 14.5 barreled AR. That would get you to 500-600yds on a man sized target. Trying to get to 1000 will be like banging your head against the wall, especially with not much exp. Do it if you feel the need to be humbled.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:06:58 PM EDT
I can hammer on a 10" gong at 300 with my 13.7 Noveske with an eotech and 55grn plinking ammo. Give me a good rest and 62grn+ stuff and I can hammer a 6" gong. YMMV Its no tack driver but I wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:11:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ShootToKill:
I've nailed the shit out of a 12" gong at 320yds with my 10.5in SBR with a Aimpoint. I probably wouldn't try shooting it past 400yds unless I had to.

I'd just say don't have unrealistic expectations. You DO have a shorter barreled rifle which is going to limit your velocity. I wouldn't put anything larger than an AGOC on a 14.5 barreled AR. That would get you to 500-600yds on a man sized target. Trying to get to 1000 will be like banging your head against the wall, especially with not much exp. Do it if you feel the need to be humbled.


With a 14.5" barrel, even if he's shooting 75-grain TAP T2 or MK262, he's going to have trouble staying supersonic to 1000 yards unless he's at 4000' elevation or more.

Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:19:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2011 5:21:13 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]
What distances are you wanting to shoot at? and what size target?

300 meters, it's pretty easy to hit a man size target with just irons. Magnification really is only necessary out past 400-500 meters.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:33:16 PM EDT
has anyone mentioned RIBZ by Molon? google it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:57:24 PM EDT
I taught myself to shoot a rifle out to 300 yards, before I had access to a range that would allow for longer shots. I simply learned the trajectory of the bullet, I was shooting, at the velocity my barrel allowed and honestly, it was pretty easy to get hits after that. If you have learned good shooting fundamentals at 100 yards, then getting longer range hits involves those basics, plus, as mentioned, learning wind drift, and hold over. There is a lot of Zen in shooting, so your mind has to be straight when you do try to advance.

Formal instruction has a much greater impact if you already have some experience and you know what you don't know.

One word of advice: learn about trajectory, but especially Maximum Point Blank Range, and the bullets deviation from and across the line of sight.

Nothing ever helped me become proficient at hitting man-sized targets at 600 yards with an unmagnified eotech, like practice.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 7:36:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 10:02:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
What distances are you wanting to shoot at? and what size target?

The longest range I have near me goes out to 300 yard.

From what I am reading it seems pretty do able with an aimpoint and a 100 yard zero as long as I do my part. Correct?
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 10:09:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
What distances are you wanting to shoot at? and what size target?

The longest range I have near me goes out to 300 yard.

From what I am reading it seems pretty do able with an aimpoint and a 100 yard zero as long as I do my part. Correct?


Use a 50yd zero on the aimpoint. Top of the dot at 100yds, middle of dot at 200yds, bottom of dot at 300yds. That will let you hit E-silhouettes no problem.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 10:35:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 12:43:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
People were hitting targets at the ranges the OP wants to shoot long before appleseed came along. It's really not that hard.


And most of those people received either instruction in the military or civilian competition

.



Sometimes it's good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. I don't know a single person in real life who learned to shoot (qualifier: shoot well) in the military or in any form of civilan competition.

I know bazillions of people who learned to shoot (and shoot well) at home, or with friends. I'm sure it's different for you, and I don't want to argue - it's just good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. In the rural south, the idea of joining the military to learn to shoot is insane, since you can't join the military until at least a decade after you're old enough to be shooting. Truth be known, I prefer it that way, too. I don't like citizens thinking they need the military to train them. Bad political implications for the 2A.

Either way, the OP gave no indication of being a novice shooter - he's just been limited to shorter ranges thus far. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew the basics of shooting.

Link Posted: 8/10/2011 1:00:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 2:03:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
People were hitting targets at the ranges the OP wants to shoot long before appleseed came along. It's really not that hard.


And most of those people received either instruction in the military or civilian competition

.



Sometimes it's good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. I don't know a single person in real life who learned to shoot (qualifier: shoot well) in the military or in any form of civilan competition.

I know bazillions of people who learned to shoot (and shoot well) at home, or with friends. I'm sure it's different for you, and I don't want to argue - it's just good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. In the rural south, the idea of joining the military to learn to shoot is insane, since you can't join the military until at least a decade after you're old enough to be shooting. Truth be known, I prefer it that way, too. I don't like citizens thinking they need the military to train them. Bad political implications for the 2A.

Either way, the OP gave no indication of being a novice shooter - he's just been limited to shorter ranges thus far. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew the basics of shooting.



He never said the "Learned to shoot" in the military... He said they received instruction in the military or civilian competition.
If a new shooter goes out and tries shooting at extreme range with little or no instruction they will rapidly get discouraged...
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 2:13:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2011 2:15:12 PM EDT by Danj]
My background as far as strictly rifle skill is a handful of tactical rifle classes from a few different commercial providers. I don't think we went beyond 50 yards at any of the classes.

I usually shoot at a human sized target at 100 yards with my aimpoint about twice a month and if my memory serves me I can keep it within an eight inch circle.

ETA: I posed this question because I've always been interested in long range shooting but don't really want to have to buy a new platform. I was just wondering if I added an optic realistically what would be the capability of my rifle.
Link Posted: 8/10/2011 2:24:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFSOC:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
People were hitting targets at the ranges the OP wants to shoot long before appleseed came along. It's really not that hard.


And most of those people received either instruction in the military or civilian competition

.



Sometimes it's good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. I don't know a single person in real life who learned to shoot (qualifier: shoot well) in the military or in any form of civilan competition.

I know bazillions of people who learned to shoot (and shoot well) at home, or with friends. I'm sure it's different for you, and I don't want to argue - it's just good to be reminded that lots of us live in different worlds. In the rural south, the idea of joining the military to learn to shoot is insane, since you can't join the military until at least a decade after you're old enough to be shooting. Truth be known, I prefer it that way, too. I don't like citizens thinking they need the military to train them. Bad political implications for the 2A.

Either way, the OP gave no indication of being a novice shooter - he's just been limited to shorter ranges thus far. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew the basics of shooting.



He never said the "Learned to shoot" in the military... He said they received instruction in the military or civilian competition.
If a new shooter goes out and tries shooting at extreme range with little or no instruction they will rapidly get discouraged...


You guys are bound and determined to turn this into a silly argument. Please, stop. The OP isn't a new shooter. He never said he was.

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