Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/23/2005 11:30:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:32:23 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

"Black boxes" that record vehicle information have been slowly being introduced into production-model cars & trucks for several years. More and more new vehicles come equipped with these data-storage boxes and they do NOT advertise this but if you look closely buried somewhere in your new-car manual you may find your car has one.

Here's a couple examples:

Crash Data Retrieval System

Harris Technical

Most record stuff like basic technical data of engine performance but they can also record whether seatbelts were being used, speed of vehicle just before crash and other info that can be useful in vehicle accident investigations. Some also require virtually a court-order to retrieve the data.

Has anyone here ever had an experience where the info obtained from such a recorder was used for or against them?

For new car owners, do you know whether yours has a 'black box' or not? Was it pointed out to you at the time of sale by the dealer?


Just curious.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:13:22 PM EDT
bump
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:21:16 AM EDT
It doesn't look like the Toyota Sienna has one. That's good cause I just bought an 05 Sienna.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:23:39 AM EDT
They will all eventually have them installed whether you like it or not.

Just disable it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:24:37 AM EDT
IIRC all the newer (since 99) GM models have it. So my mom's 05 TrailBlazer, and the 2000 Blazer she got rid of have/had them. Probably ditto with my dad's 2004 GMC Sierra 3500.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
They will all eventually have them installed whether you like it or not.

Just disable it.



That will become illegal.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:31:11 AM EDT
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:33:43 AM EDT
From Google cache since the orginal isn't available.

66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:h75qZextQdAJ:www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/14/canada/blackbox_20040414

Car's black box convicts dangerous driver

Last Updated Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:36:34

MONTREAL - For the first time in a Canadian court, a data recorder in a car was used to convict a man in Montreal of dangerous driving causing death.

The data recorder, also known as a black box, records the last few seconds of driving before a car's air bag deploys. In an accident in 2001 in Montreal, the black box in Eric Gauthier's car proved that he was driving 131 km/h in a 50 km/h zone when his vehicle hit Yacine Zinet's car, killing him and injuring a passenger.

At the time of the accident, Gauthier, now 26, told police that he was driving just over the speed limit when another car ran a red light and crashed into his car. But police investigators were suspicious because of the heavy damage to the vehicles and the absence of skid marks. They petitioned and won the right to use the black box data as evidence.

The black box in Gauthier's Pontiac Sunfire indicated he was driving more than 130 km/h, almost three times the speed limit.

Gauthier was sentenced to 18 months in jail for dangerous driving. His licence has also been suspended for three years.

Gauthier's family was shocked by the sentence.

The victim's family was surprised, saying nothing could bring Yacine back but that justice had been served.

The Crown prosecutor recommended that Gauthier should serve three years in jail. Gauthier's defence attorney argued for a 12-to-20-month sentence to be served at his parents' home.


Discussion thread on /.

slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/15/1350233
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:38:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:39:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?




Sure. I'd like them to install GPS units too to map my whereabouts during the day so I'll have evidence of my comings and goings in the event I'm investigated. Maybe a dash cam too.... more evidence the better!
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:43:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.




I guess I still believe in the 5th amendment and figure it should prevent my property from testifying against me as well.

I don't see the right against self-incrimanation as an admission of guilt.

Abstract numbers from an onboard computer will be spun by lawyers on both sides. Truth has nothing to do with today's legal system. May the best or most $$$ lawyer win.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:46:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?




Sure. I'd like them to install GPS units too to map my whereabouts during the day so I'll have evidence of my comings and goings in the event I'm investigated. Maybe a dash cam too.... more evidence the better!



Or maybe just implant a chip under my skin. That would be neato swell. After all, "wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story."
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:51:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
The black box in Gauthier's Pontiac Sunfire indicated he was driving more than 130 km/h, almost three times the speed limit.

Gauthier was sentenced to 18 months in jail for dangerous driving. His licence has also been suspended for three years.

Gauthier's family was shocked by the sentence.

"Dangerous driving"??? What about MANSLAUGHTER!?

The victim's family was surprised, saying nothing could bring Yacine back but that justice had been served.


Originally Posted By Airwolf:
The Crown prosecutor recommended that Gauthier should serve three years in jail. Gauthier's defence attorney argued for a 12-to-20-month sentence to be served at his parents' home.

He kills someone so basically they want him sent to his room. What a fucking joke.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:51:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
They will all eventually have them installed whether you like it or not.

Just disable it.



That will become illegal.



Then I openly and publicly advocate breaking the law. Obviously the recorder was damaged in the auto accident, your honor.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:55:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.


I guess I still believe in the 5th amendment and figure it should prevent my property from testifying against me as well.



WTF kind of a "right" is that!?

Hey you can't use any evidence you find in my home with a search warrant against me because that bloody knife in my garbage is MY property!

I think you need to read the FOURTH Amendment a bit closer:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
AFAIK, police investigators can't access your vehicle's black-box without a warrant.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:57:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 10:00:30 AM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.


I guess I still believe in the 5th amendment and figure it should prevent my property from testifying against me as well.



WTF kind of a "right" is that!?

Hey you can't use any evidence you find in my home with a search warrant against me because that bloody knife in my garbage is MY property!

I think you need to read the FOURTH Amendment a bit closer:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
AFAIK, police investigators can't access your vehicle's black-box without a warrant.




Ya know, I will have to give you that one and admit a brain fart. Working too hard today.

How bout this?

Since it is a recording device that was placed against your will, they need a court order to have one installed and operating? Like a wiretap?

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:05:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 10:07:14 AM EDT by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.


I guess I still believe in the 5th amendment and figure it should prevent my property from testifying against me as well.



WTF kind of a "right" is that!?

Hey you can't use any evidence you find in my home with a search warrant against me because that bloody knife in my garbage is MY property!

I think you need to read the FOURTH Amendment a bit closer:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
AFAIK, police investigators can't access your vehicle's black-box without a warrant.




I find that situation to be a little different than:

Mr Grunteled... we are here to collect the video from the mandatory video surveilence system installed in your home to aid in our investigation. Here's the warrent we have to collect it. Please stand aside as we gather it. What.... It's not working? You disabled it??? That must indicate you PLANNED some kind of crime here! Did you know it it required to have the TatTale Mark V system operational at all times by law sir? Come with us please.

Call me tin-foil if you want to, but I'm not so pro law-and-order that I want mandatory data collection devices installed in my property for the convienence of the state. I'm sure it won't matter though. In 5 -10 years they will be required and protected by law.

ETA: Yeah 5th ammendment is a stretch on this one though! Privacy doctrine might apply but probably not for your actions on the road.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:11:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Now WHY would you guys disable it? Wouldn't you like to have some corrobation for your story in the event of a collision injury or death?

Agreed.

In fact, disabling it could easily be seen by some as an attempt to tamper with the gathering of evidence in anticipation of committing illegal or at-fault driving actions, i.e. it makes you "look" guilty.


I guess I still believe in the 5th amendment and figure it should prevent my property from testifying against me as well.



WTF kind of a "right" is that!?

Hey you can't use any evidence you find in my home with a search warrant against me because that bloody knife in my garbage is MY property!

I think you need to read the FOURTH Amendment a bit closer:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
AFAIK, police investigators can't access your vehicle's black-box without a warrant.


Ya know, I will have to give you that one and admit a brain fart. Working too hard today.

How bout this?

Since it is a recording device that was placed against your will, they need a court order to have one installed and operating? Like a wiretap?

Nice try. But no dice.

Are you saying that you KNEW it was there before you bought the car and that you demanded that it be removed but when the dealer refused.... you went ahead and bought the car anyway?

Or are you simply saying you didn't know it was there? If that's the case, then it wasn't placed there "against your will" but rather it was there when you bought it but you didn't know and since stated plainly in the auto manual when you buy it that the box exists and what it does you SHOULD have known what you were buying.

Buyer beware.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:11:54 AM EDT
http://www.crushanalysis.com has a lot of info on this topic.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:21:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I find that situation to be a little different than:

Mr Grunteled... we are here to collect the video from the mandatory video surveilence system installed in your home to aid in our investigation. Here's the warrent we have to collect it. Please stand aside as we gather it. What.... It's not working? You disabled it??? That must indicate you PLANNED some kind of crime here! Did you know it it required to have the TatTale Mark V system operational at all times by law sir? Come with us please.

Well that is pretty much what is done every day - LEOs enter peoples' homes with a warrant and collect computer records which record every keystroke you and website you visit.

In fact, I vaguely recall someone was convicted of some cybercrime and the fact that hey had a "shredder" program which wipes out harddrive data that is deleted was used PARTLY as evidence of his premeditation and intention to cover up his illegal acts. The key word there is PARTLY as evidence.

The black boxes in new cars can be seen as simply an extension of the old "look at the stuck speedometer" or "look at the unused/disabled seat belts" in that crashed car as evidence against the reckless driver.


But as far as your specific example, mandating video cameras in new homes is a true abomination and one I would clearly draw a line in the sand over. But black-boxes in new cars.... I'm still not fully convinced that's the evil gaze of Big Brother watching you at all times.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:26:01 AM EDT
I guess I have some work to do on my Grand Prix.

Besides, most accidents can be figured out by traffic accident investigators. The last thing I need is to get screwed for going 5 mph over and the other guy doesn't even have a box in his car.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:38:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
I find that situation to be a little different than:

Mr Grunteled... we are here to collect the video from the mandatory video surveilence system installed in your home to aid in our investigation. Here's the warrent we have to collect it. Please stand aside as we gather it. What.... It's not working? You disabled it??? That must indicate you PLANNED some kind of crime here! Did you know it it required to have the TatTale Mark V system operational at all times by law sir? Come with us please.

Well that is pretty much what is done every day - LEOs enter peoples' homes with a warrant and collect computer records which record every keystroke you and website you visit.

In fact, I vaguely recall someone was convicted of some cybercrime and the fact that hey had a "shredder" program which wipes out harddrive data that is deleted was used PARTLY as evidence of his premeditation and intention to cover up his illegal acts. The key word there is PARTLY as evidence.

The black boxes in new cars can be seen as simply an extension of the old "look at the stuck speedometer" or "look at the unused/disabled seat belts" in that crashed car as evidence against the reckless driver.


But as far as your specific example, mandating video cameras in new homes is a true abomination and one I would clearly draw a line in the sand over. But black-boxes in new cars.... I'm still not fully convinced that's the evil gaze of Big Brother watching you at all times.




I can nod with you there, and as long as the box being operable is not mandated by law I can deal. Honestly I can deal otherwise. But I know, like I know the sun will rise tomorrow, that the areas of life monitoring will be required in will spread. Why not track guns, where they went and when they were fired? Serial numbers on bullets seems reasonable.... after all they use ballistics now to tie bullets to guns this is just an extension. GPS for road tax purposes, and just happens to be handy when you want to investigate someone.

I've heard some calls for installing manditory video equipment in all state licensed day care facilities. Care to guess how many private residences would be affected? It will not stop with crash data. Like I said, I'm as certain of that as I am the sun will rise.

While my property has no right not to tell what can be gleaned from it with a warrent, being forced to install a system for the specific purpose of providing evidence against (or purhaps for) me seems to be skating on the thin edge.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:39:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:


Has anyone here ever had an experience where the info obtained from such a recorder was used for or against them?




I wish the car I was driving HAD a black box when I was involved in a 5 car pile up a couple years ago.


Would have PROVEN that I stopped, got hit in the rear, and was slammed into the cars in front of me.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:40:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FunYun1983:
The last thing I need is to get screwed for going 5 mph over and the other guy doesn't even have a box in his car.

That's a good point.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:52:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FunYun1983:
I guess I have some work to do on my Grand Prix.

Besides, most accidents can be figured out by traffic accident investigators. The last thing I need is to get screwed for going 5 mph over and the other guy doesn't even have a box in his car.



I'd like to point out, as an accident investigator myself, that this is incorrect. I've had several accidents in the past where the causes were pure guesses.(no survivors) Educated guesses to be sure, but not FACT.

Add to that the fact every measurement I take is an ESTIMATE of your speed, angle of collision, response times, momentum after impact, drag factors of the road surface, vault angles etc, (believe me, attorney's harp on this point obsessively) none of it is a hard number that would be provided by that black box. An attorney would have a hell of a time disputing that printout.

If you are a responsible driver, this info will work to your benefit when the attorney for the other side starts painting you as a lunatic that dreams of slaughtering nuns in a crosswalk.

If you ARE a nun slaughtering lunatic, well, you're going to get screwed.

Everyone here has outstanding odds of being involved in a serious injury/fatal collision sometime in their lives. Throwing away technology that would save your butt because of some vague "big government" paranoia is really stupid.
Top Top