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Posted: 2/20/2006 12:15:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 12:19:10 PM EST by The_Macallan]
Is equal bets placed on passline and the field only on the comeout roll an 8% edge for the player? * assuming 3:1 pay for 12 in the field instead of 2:1 as some houses do. 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
I'm not certain of the math.
BUT. I would say that this is not true. There is no way that a casino would permit an 8% player advantage. No way. You only get paid on the pass line during the come out roll on 7. Craps you lose. all others, no payoff. Plus, I don't think you can play a field bet on the come out roll. 


+1 If there was ANY bet that was an 8% edge for the player, you wouldn't be able to make that bet. And I'm not sure, but I agree that you can't place a field bet when coming out. 


2 = pay 1x (because field pays double on 2, lose passline, net up 1x) 3 = even (lose pass, pay field, net even) 4 = pay 1x (field) 5= lose 1x (field) 6 = lose 1x (field) 7 = even (lose field, win passline, net even) 8 = lose 1x (field) 9 = pay 1x (field) 10 = pay 1x (field) 11 = pay 2x (field + yo) 12 = pay 2x (field pays triple, lose passline, net up 2x) Figure in the odds of each possibility and it seems to come out with a 8% edge just for comeout roll only. But again, I'm not a statistician... that's why I'm asking. I must be missing something obvious but don't know what.


"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
No. I'm not sure of the math on 8%. Field is a kindof a sucker bet.
Pass line pays on the 7 or 11 on the come out roll. Field pays 2,3,4,9,10,11,12. Figure 3:1 on the 2 & 12. Odds of 2 and 12 are low. The most common numbers rolled are omitted from the field for a reason. Then only way you'd win both bets is if you got the 11. As far as thats concerned, bet a Yo bet. 15 for 1 payout on the Yo. My usual come out bet is 5 on the pass line, 1 crap, 2 Yo. Crap pays 8 for 1. So you get 7 if someone craps. Which = your two yo and 5 pass line. 

Sarcasm is just one more FREE service I offer.



"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
Where's the beancounters when you need'em? 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
Oh come on people!
There are 36 possible combinations for a 2dice roll and so if you put equal money on the passline & field (ONLY on comeout rolls): You win 14/36 times You lose 14/36 times You break even 8/36 times. That's zero house advantage, zero player advantage. BUT... on a comeout roll you'll win double on 11 & 12 which comes up 8.3% of the time. So according to MY math  the player has an 8.3% advantage doing this.... but only on the comeout roll. So is this right? 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
I am no math genius, but I don't think there in an 8% player advantage bet in craps. Yes, you can bet the field on a come out roll 


So I guess the hive empty on this one? 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
Tag this and I will ask my old casino manager. He knows the numbers. I was an IT geek.
Aviator 

Adventure does not come calling like uninvited cousins, you have to go looking for it. 'Mark Twain'

The odds on a normal craps table of the field hitting are 16/36 but add in the extra payoff on 2 and 12 and the odds become and now the odds are 19/39. Roughly 48.7%.
Damm i cant figure this out. Yes you can bet the field and pass line at any time. 


Play it and report back to us.



One answer....
His question is more complicated than a simple 8%  First I donâ€™t know how he arrived at that number I have added the following true odds for both areas. This is calculated on the 36 possible combinations of two dice rolled. Your friend has to remember there are more ways to roll a number other than a natural. I have seen this system work both for and against the player. If a player doubles his money in the field and then allows it to ride just once the player will dbl his money. Ex: betting 1248163264 (thatâ€™s dbling each time) when the player has a $64 bet riding he already has a total of $125 invested. So in the $64 bet if he wins he will have on the table a total of $128 he can either take his winnings ($3) and leave or he can buck the house odds and let it ride. If a 34910 or eleven is rolled he will win $134. If a 2 or 12 rolls he will double his winnings and call it a night. Bet True Odds Payoff House Edge % Pass Line/Come Bet 251 to 244 1 to 1 1.414 Field Bets 3, 4, 9, 10, 11 1 to 1 5.5 2, 12 2 to 1 5.5 Another answer... to start with you have to remember exactly how many ways each number can be rolled. There is one way to roll a 2 and a 12 there are two ways to roll a 3 and 11 there are 3 ways to roll a 4 and a 10 there are 4 ways to roll a 5 and a 9 there are 5 ways to roll 6 and 8 and there are 6 ways to roll a 7 With this said you have to know there rest of the game. On the come out roll 7 and 11 pays on the passline, while 2, 3 & 12 loose. That means just on that part of the game there are 8 ways to win and 4 ways to loose. BUT just because on those numbers your odds are 2 to 1 in your favor dosen't make it so because any other number rolled becomes the point and your passline bet must stay there until it wins or looses. Depending upon which number was rolled will determine what your odds are. NOW, looking at the field bet, the field numbers are 2,3, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12,. The 2 and the 12 pay double which means there are 18 ways to win, (actually 16 combinations, but since the 2 & 12 pay double it makes it 18). Now there are 20 combinations to loose. As far as the 12 paying 3 times. That is usually only in Northern Nv. and only the 12 pays 3 times while the 2 pays even money. I could go on probably for days, as I'm sure you know, but to answer your question in a word. NO! there aren't any bets in craps with an 8% players advantage. The casino's would probably like the players to think so, so they will continue to play stupidly. How do you think they built all of those big casinos in Vegas? 

Adventure does not come calling like uninvited cousins, you have to go looking for it. 'Mark Twain'

Send him this:  If you put same bet on both field and passline on the comeout roll (assuming 12field pays 3x as it does in many Vegas houses): 2 = pay 1x (because field pays double on 2, lose passline, net up 1x) 3 = even (lose pass, pay field, net even) 4 = pay 1x (field) 5= lose 1x (field) 6 = lose 1x (field) 7 = even (lose field, win passline, net even) 8 = lose 1x (field) 9 = pay 1x (field) 10 = pay 1x (field) 11 = pay 2x (field + yo) 12 = pay 2x (field pays triple, lose passline, net up 2x) There are 36 possible combinations for a 2dice roll and so if you put equal money on the passline & field... again ONLY on comeout rolls: You win 14/36 times (on 2, 4. 9, 10, 11 and 12) You lose 14/36 times (on 5, 6, and 8) You break even 8/36 times (on 3 and 7) That's zero house advantage, zero player advantage. BUT... on a comeout roll you'll win double on 11 & 12 which comes up 8.3% of the time. So according to MY math  the player has an 8.3% advantage doing this.... but only on the comeout roll.  btw... ETA: re the part in red... IIRC and IMBWB you can pull your passline bet anytime. 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
btw... the part I highlighted in red are is wrong  you can pull your passline bet anytime.
That is incorrect, once there is a point the passline bet must stay 


$5 yo!
$5 on 6,8,10,12 the hard way! 

I see you're a graduate of the "jrzy school of interpersonal relations". <img src=/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif border=0 align=middle> DScott
You should really stick to advice about staying inside the lines on your coloring book. Drjarh 


"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
May be like that somewhere else, but I assure you in Vegas it has to stay until until the point is made or a 7 comes, you can pick up your odds at anytime, just not the pass line bet. 


I'll ask them that. One is a casino manager, the other is a casino general manager.
Aviator 

Adventure does not come calling like uninvited cousins, you have to go looking for it. 'Mark Twain'



Proud parent of a Mall Ninja Honor Student
Real men wear pink to show support, Fight Back Patty! 
The pass line gives the house a 1.4% advantage, the field gives the house a 5.5% advantage on double 2/12, some places will even pay triple on these numbers and still have around a 12% house advantage. There is the math.
Placing two seperate bets to "cancel" each other out will not work and will actually increase the house advantage to almost 7% in this case. You would be far better off playing the pass/don't pass with odds and giving the house a <1% advantage over you. One of the best bets in the casino. ALMOST even. The thing that kills your strategy is the fact that once you make a passline bet and a number is established your bet must remain up and the House now has a huge advantage against you. 

"Why don't you just go to the hose and drink some water like the dog you are"
 Meatwad 
I'm not "cancelling" anything. But if you think I made an error  show me. Highlight in red the mathematical error you find in anything below: If you put same bet on both field and passline on the comeout roll (assuming 12field pays 3x as it does in many Vegas houses): 2 = pay 1x (because field pays double on 2, lose passline, net up 1x) 3 = even (lose pass, pay field, net even) 4 = pay 1x (field) 5= lose 1x (field) 6 = lose 1x (field) 7 = even (lose field, win passline, net even) 8 = lose 1x (field) 9 = pay 1x (field) 10 = pay 1x (field) 11 = pay 2x (field + yo) 12 = pay 2x (field pays triple, lose passline, net up 2x) There are 36 possible combinations for a 2dice roll and so if you put equal money on the passline & field... again ONLY on comeout rolls: You win 14/36 times (on 2, 4. 9, 10, 11 and 12) You lose 14/36 times (on 5, 6, and 8) You break even 8/36 times (on 3 and 7) That's zero house advantage, zero player advantage. BUT... on a comeout roll you'll win double on 11 & 12 which comes up 8.3% of the time. So according to MY math  the player has an 8.3% advantage doing this.... but only on the comeout roll. 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
I think the error in your math comes when you factor in the pass line bet having to stay in place after the point is established.



Is that right? 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
Allright you have made me think Considering a $5 unit here we go: 2  (+5) 3  (0) 4  (+10) This accounts for +15 on the field and a  5 potential outcome on the passline if 4 is the number after the comeout roll 5  (24) 20 on the field bet, 20 in play on the passline which you will win 40% of the time and lose 60% of the time, that is a net loss of $4 6  (27) 25 on the field bet, 25 in play on the passline which you will win 45% and lose 55% of the time. Net loss of $2 on the passline after the comeout 7  (0) it is a wash 8  (27) 25 on the field bet, 25 in play on the passline which you will win 45% and lose 55% of the time. Net loss of $2 on the passline after the comeout. 9  (+16) +20 on the field bet, net loss of $4 on the passline. 10  (+10) This accounts for +15 on the field and a  5 potential outcome on the passline if 10 is the number after the comeout roll 11  (+20) 12  (+5) This works out to wins of $66 and losses of $78. This translates into a House advantage of around 8% but realize I rounded up and down here and there on a few numbers so that is just about right. Like I said before the House will have around a 7% advantage when you combine their 1.41% and 5.5% percent advantages together when making both bets. Think of it this way. You and a friend play craps together. You make only field bets and he makes only passline bets. You will lose $5.50 for every hundred dollars bet. He will lose $1.41 for every hundred dollars bet. The fact that one person is making these two bets does not change the same outcome you would achieve with two different people making these seperate bets. You can't beat the math. ETA: I love craps but it is for entertainment, making money at it can't be done through simple systems. There are guys out there that promote systems such as counting 7's but they are useless also since every roll is independent of the one that happened before it and the one that will happen after it. 

"Why don't you just go to the hose and drink some water like the dog you are"
 Meatwad 
Please go back to my numbers I posted and simply highlight any errors you find. Thanks. 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
Those figures above are based on 36 rolls because mathematically that is what would take place over the course of those 36 rolls. For example I say you will lose 20 on the field bet when five hits because over the course of 36 rolls the five should show up 4 times x $5 = $20. Then there will still be $5 on the passline with five as the number and you will win $5 40% of the time and lose $5 60% of the time when the seven shows before the five. That works out to a net loss of $4 on top of the $20 you have already lost due to the field bet. This is the outcome after 36 rolls and the five showing up the four times it is supposed to. The same goes for the 6 or 8 but they will hit 5 times each out of every 36 rolls, so out of 36 rolls you should lose $25 on the field bet and then another $2 when the passline bet plays out with 6 or 8 as the number.
I see where your logic is trying to go but when everything is said and done and the passline losses are considered you will lose an avergae of almost $7 for evey $100 you bet on the table. Your idea isn't really flawed, it is just incomplete. If you lay down $1000 in bets over the course of an evening (You bet your $10 field/passline bet on 100 comeout rolls) mathematically you should lose $69.10. There is no way to combine bets and completely escape from the House's built in edge. ETA: You are right that you have a small advantage on the comeout roll, but those passline bets where a point is established 24/36 times have to stay up until they win or lose. The House has a bigger advantage in th end that overshadows your comeout roll advantage. . 

"Why don't you just go to the hose and drink some water like the dog you are"
 Meatwad 
I don't know how to play craps.


http://www.reddawn.net

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he pulled the pin on another grenade...

How 'bout I try it Friday, letcha know? ETA Thinking hard on it, I agree that the fly in the ointment is the Pass Line bet having to remain. I don't have much faith. If I end up ahead just piking around like I do, I'll give it a whirl though. 

If you're thinkin of losin that feelin, then don't.

My wife and I play Craps about twice a week at a local Indian Casino, and "Lanceman" has nailed it as far as the Odds & House Advantage are concerned.
There are some players who have a system, and the goofiest one I've seen is a college kid who came in and would play $5 pass line, $10 odds, and then the same bet on Don't Pass. Even this system has a hook due to the "Bar 12" which loses on the comeout roll, but is a push on the Don't Pass line. The only thing that seems to have a chance, is make smaller bets when the table is cold, then press when it gets a shooter. This casino alows 5X odds, so the house edge goes down to about 0.3% with those bets, but like the joke goes, What do casino owners say to someone with a winning system? "Welcome" Edited to add: We buy in for $300 each, and the casino comps us for $100 dinner every session, and a free room in their hotel if we want to stay the night. We are what's called "Tough" or "Tight" players, and they still are glad to do this. I'm up about $1200 since I started keeping track around Thanksgiving, but they'll probably get it all back with interest eventually. (And I'll have put on about 10 pounds !) It's cheap entertainment, and nice to be treated like a high roller for basically chump change. 


But as far as my original question  apparently ONLY on the comeout roll the player DOES has an advantage if they play equal bets in the field and passline. After that.... the house edge does seem to eat away at the remaining passline bet (the house edge can be reduced somewhat by backing it up with an odds sidebet but never reversed to your advantage). 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
The replys to your second question
Reply from the Casino General Manager... "Good luck, Vegas will love ya!" And from the Casino Manager.. "Xxxxx, both Xxx and I worked in Vegas, I for the life of me cannot remember ANY house there paying 3 time on the 12 in the field. Like I said earlier, that type of payment was usually in Northern Nevada, and the 2 only paid even money which cancelled out the 3 time B.S. on the 12. Wendover, Jackpot, the smaller towns & places use it to confuse the player. I can ask my brother though if you like, he is a Craps dealer at the Belagio, AND I'm sure he would know if things have changed since I left Vegas, but I was there a few months ago and nothing had changed since I left. Another thing I would like to reinterate on, the casino's just love it when they have a DUMB SHIT playing, and don't really know when the odds ARE STACKED AGAINST HIM!!! Though I will say one thing: Craps is the most level game in the casino, but you have to know the game inside out, outside in, and inside out and the odds are about even 49 player 51 house. Do the math, the HOUSE ALWAYS HAS TO HAVE THE EDGE. Oh, and by the way I saw a post where someone said they picked up their passline bet and walked AFTER a point was made. He was just lucky that no one saw him do that, he would have got arrested for stealing in EVERY SINGLE CASINO I HAVE EVER BEEN IN. You can pick up your DON"T PASS bet BUT not your passline bet untill a decission has been made on the point. Believe me on this I've seen it happen. Some people forget that there is a surveillance camera going every minute on every square inch of a casino AND most importantly every single game is regulated by the state. Which means if you rip off the casino you rip off the state, and the state dosen't go for that shit. Do you think they won't prosecute you? Think again!! 

Adventure does not come calling like uninvited cousins, you have to go looking for it. 'Mark Twain'

Craps is a fun game, like draver said above it is for entertainment, but you can work it to your advantage through comps for meals and rooms without risking much money. I read John Patrick's books about 10 years ago and that is how I learned the game and all the odds involved. If you like math craps is a fun game just figuring out the odds in your head as the game goes on. I like it because at times it is the most exciting game in the casino. 

"Why don't you just go to the hose and drink some water like the dog you are"
 Meatwad 
First of all, I played three Vegas casinos recently (Frontier, Casino Royale and IIRC Harrah's)  ALL of them payed triple on 12 with double on 2. THAT'S why I play there. Maybe your buddy is used to highend casinos with $2550 starting minimums but that's not where I spend my time or money. Secondly, yeah  I know IN THE LONG RUN the house always has an advantage. I wasn't born yesterday. My original question was SIMPLY regarding ONE kind of bet in craps  that's all. They need to lighten up. Okay so let me see if this helps: Let's assume you gonna play craps for a couple hours  enough time to see 36 comeout rolls. You want to increase your winnings without significantly increasing the amount you bet per roll (which let's say you want to average about $10/roll). What do you do? A good strategy is to keep the passline bet to a minimum and put more of your bet on the odds bet "backup" once point is established (this cuts down the house advantage). So if you want the minimum (say $5) on the passline once point is made, you must put that much on the comeout roll because you can't reduce the passline bet once point is established. So.... if you're going to only put the minimum $5 on the passline on the comeout roll, then FOR THE COMEOUT ROLLS ONLY that $5 bet will win you $20 after 36 comeout rolls. Once point is established you keep the minimum $5 on the passline and make an odds "sidebet" as extra to reduce the house advantage on those bets. But.... you can increase your winnings after 36 comeout rolls if you keep that minimum $5 on the passline on the comeout roll and put another $5 on the field which, FOR THE COMEOUT ROLLS ONLY, will win $30 after 36 comeout rolls. Once point is established you remove the field bet, keep the minimum $5 on the passline and make an odds "sidebet" as extra to reduce the house advantage. Compare these two players who both want to play "minimum" passline bets: Player A) $5 passline only = +$20 after 36 comeout rolls. After point is established you'll have that $5 passline bet to which you can add an odds bet "backup". Player B) $5 passline + $5 field = +$30 after 36 comeout rolls. After point is established, you remove the field bet and you'll still have that $5 passline bet to which you can add an odds bet "backup". All other things being equal, once point is established they play the same way, player B comes out ahead of player A. But wait you may say  player B is simply wagering money more than player A so naturally his winnings might be higher. Not so. Let's compare player B with a third player who decides to put $10 all on the passline on the comeout roll: Player C) $10 passline only = +$40 after 36 comeout rolls  but now he's stuck with a $10 passline bet instead of $5 so he's in a weaker position now because he can't reduce his passline bet once point is established. He's stuck with having $10 all on the passline which pays less when point hits than if he had that $10 split $5 on the passline and $5 on the odds "backup". After a few hours, player C will win less money (and lose more) than player B who is betting the exact same amount of money. Bottomline: If you're gonna put the minimum bet on the passline (which you should), you would lose less in the same amount of time if you matched it with an equal field bet only on the comeout rolls. THAT is all I'm saying. If that's wrong... hey, whatever. 

"Uhhh... they might be unlawful aliens but otherwise lawful citizens"
~ Alberto Gonzalez, US Attorney General at his confirmation hearing, Jan. 6, 2005. 
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