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Posted: 8/11/2005 8:31:15 AM EDT
Let me start with this disclaimer: I have always been a fan of Craftsman tools.

So, I've got a whole set of Craftsman wrenches that are 10-15 years old. Stout, but not super-duper quality like some of the very expensive brands. Well, I recently purchased an entire tool set (348 pcs) and a roll-away tool storage thingy. Well, a few days ago I needed two 1/2" wrenches for something, so I got one from the old set and one from the new and proceeded to fix whatever it was that needed fixing. Just for kicks, I examined the two wrenches, to see if they looked identical. After all, they were both Craftsman 1/2" wrenches and even though they were purchased a dozen years apart, they should still be exactly the same, right? It wouldn't make any sense to make all new forgings, just keep the dies you have and pump out thousands of wrenches on paid-for machinery and dies, right?

Wrong.

The new wrench was *considerably* thinner on the business ends. No, make that *shockingly* thinner. Whereas the older wrenches had alot of steel on the enclosed end, the new ones have no more than half of what the old ones had.

Now, I will still buy Craftsman tools, but this really pisses me off.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:37:51 AM EDT
I think they expect to have to replace a few tools and I am just gald to have a place that is close to home where I can replace a tool right away as opposed to a compnay like Snap-On or MAC Tools where you need the truck to stop by...

Then again, I have a small shop... pehaps one day I will have the truck stopping by
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:43:44 AM EDT
steel is expensive.
i would expect that in the last few years better steel and stronger forging techniques would produce a lighter yet stronger tool. why stick with the old? most of the craftsman line is updated and streamlined. i have broken a 1/2" wrench with a 4' cheater bar. what broke was the ratchet and internals. not the housing or handle.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:44:19 AM EDT
I have 4 1/2" ratchets (don't ask why) and they all look different. Different thickness, overall beef, weight. Perform the same.

I have managed to bend one of mine about 30 degrees, using it as a prybar with a cheater on it. The chick at Sears smiled and just gave me another one.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:55:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:56:24 AM EDT by ChrisLe]
Why should two tools made 12 years apart necessarily be the same? There could be any number of reasons for the change in design: advances in metallurgy or forging techniques that lend themselves to lighter tools with equivalent strength ratings, ergonomics, smaller tool 'heads' so as to reach more inaccessible spaces, etc, etc......A tool with less steel on it (i.e. 'thinner') isn't necessarily weaker....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:28:49 AM EDT
craftsman quality and brand has been deteriorating rapidly over past 5-10 years. with the kmart merger, i suspect it wont be long before they are jsut a high end harbor freight. i used to have a good bit of craftsman handtools, but have been replacing nearly all of them with better quality pieces when i get a chance.

at this point, about the only thing i still consider buying from craftsman are their socket sets. imapct and standard. some good value there. unfortunately, their ratchets suck the big one. as do their screwdrivers.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:35:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:37:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By torstin:
craftsman quality and brand has been deteriorating rapidly over past 5-10 years. with the kmart merger, i suspect it wont be long before they are jsut a high end harbor freight. i used to have a good bit of craftsman handtools, but have been replacing nearly all of them with better quality pieces when i get a chance.

at this point, about the only thing i still consider buying from craftsman are their socket sets. imapct and standard. some good value there. unfortunately, their ratchets suck the big one. as do their screwdrivers.



+1

Their screw drivers suck big time. I buy the Snap On. You can put a wrench on it and the tip wont strip or break. But they cost $200/set.

john
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:38:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 10:43:39 AM EDT by deej86]

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On


My dad used to be a big believer in snap-on tools, until he realized that the prices are exorbitantly expensive. Since that, he goes with Mac, Matco, or Craftsman.

I'm not very mechanical, but if I were going to go with buying tools, I'd go with Craftsman or Matco.

Craftsman's stuff is made in the good ol USA!

EDIT:Their handtools IIRC are all made in the USA. My dad bought a chop saw that was made by hard working Taiwanese.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:41:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:33:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:34:12 PM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]
Aimless, Craftsman torque-wrenches have a 90 day calibration warranty and a one-year defect warranty.

I've wanted to buy a torque wrench for a few years now and that pisses me off, too.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:42:19 PM EDT by vedubin01]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think someone posted here that Sears was not warrantying all Craftsman handtools like they used to, I wish I could find the thread. I think naming power tools with a one year warranty "craftsman" was a mistake.




That is true, same with Mac, Snap-On and the others. They are not backing their products like they once did!

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:51:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:52:44 PM EDT by YELLOWV]
I prefer thinner wrenches. Crafsman are too big and clunky. Snap On are much thinner than Craftsman.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:40:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:51:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
You do get what you pay for....


True, but there comes a point where the cost is stupidly expensive. That's what makes Craftsman tools a viable choice for many. They cost money (it's not like buying Chinamart stuff from the local flea market) but only half as much as the top line brands.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:51:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 3:52:00 PM EDT by jtw2]
I've been buying the Husky branded stuff from Home Depot lately. They seem to be holding up when I crank on bolts on my Jeep with a 3 1/2 foot cheater bar. I've been happy with them so far, they are cheaper than Craftsman and they have the same warrenty.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:52:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:56:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maynard:
There's a local S&K distributor that has a %50 sale twice a year. I've also seen Snap On warranty issues based on the franchise operator. A few don't seem to want to warranty their tools.

I'd rather save up for the S&Ks, they're very nice tools also.


Now we're talking. S&K tools are where it's at. One of my uncles uses SK. He's the chief mechanic for a local ready-mix concrete company.

SK tools are indeed the cat's ass. If I knew of a local dealer that put 50% sales on I'd be all over that like white on rice.

Good post, btw.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:58:05 PM EDT
A lot of those craftsman sockets are made not too far from me i nGastonia NC.
Not sure where the wrenches are made.
Danaher tool goup who makes the Armstrong brand and Allen hex tools also make the caftsman tools.
Stanley Proto, Blackhawk, and Snap-on come form the same Place too.
Snap-on is the high end definitely.
The stanley proto which I sell a lot of is middle to uper class in hand tools.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:59:42 PM EDT
The local Carquest shop sells Blackhawk tools. Not sure what to think of them.

When the store was called "Big A auto parts" it carried SK. That was five years ago.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:02:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Just for kicks, I examined the two wrenches, to see if they looked identical. After all, they were both Craftsman 1/2" wrenches and even though they were purchased a dozen years apart, they should still be exactly the same, right?



Wrong. Over the past ten/fifteen years there have been improvements in manufacturing processes and steel tempering so even though the newer wrench is thinner it may be as strong if not stronger than the old wrench.

Under current circumstances especially in the automotive world a big thick wrench is not always preferable.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:04:31 PM EDT
From what I've seen Blackhawk is a really decent way to go for lower budge hand tools.
From what I understood they are the low end of Stanley proto's line to compete with the import tools.
But if it were me and I had my Choice I'd probably go with the Stanley Proto tools.
Never had a problem with them replacing a broken tool. As long as it wasn't obvious that it had been misused.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:06:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:06:27 PM EDT by wulf50guy]

Originally Posted By sysop:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Just for kicks, I examined the two wrenches, to see if they looked identical. After all, they were both Craftsman 1/2" wrenches and even though they were purchased a dozen years apart, they should still be exactly the same, right?



Wrong. Over the past ten/fifteen years there have been improvements in manufacturing processes and steel tempering so even though the newer wrench is thinner it may be as strong if not stronger than the old wrench.

Under current circumstances especially in the automotive world a big thick wrench is not always preferable.



Very true sysop.
The hand tools such as wrenches have made considerable advances in technology.
Thinner, stronger, less likely to slip and give you the old busted knuckle.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:08:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:09:14 PM EDT by Minuteman419]

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On



And Fly Off

Boy, I really used to piss off the snap-on man with that one.

They got 1/3 of my paychecks for years.

Danny
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:11:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:14:37 PM EDT by petagunner]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think someone posted here that Sears was not warrantying all Craftsman handtools like they used to, I wish I could find the thread. I think naming power tools with a one year warranty "craftsman" was a mistake.



You can thank Danaher Industries for that. They are also the reason why you can buy the Craftsman line at just about any industrial distributor now. Since they purchased the brand its went to hell.

They are just shit anymore. Snap-on and Armstrong are the two we see the most out here in my neck o' woods anymore. I'm not sure that all of thier lines come from the same plant though as they have different grades in each.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:14:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think someone posted here that Sears was not warrantying all Craftsman handtools like they used to, I wish I could find the thread. I think naming power tools with a one year warranty "craftsman" was a mistake.



You can thank Danaher Industries for that. They are also the reason why you can buy the Craftsman line at just about any industrial distributor now. Since they purchased the brand its went to hell.

They are just shit anymore. Snap-on and Armstrong are the two we see the most out here in my neck o' woods anymore.



distributor here
The three main ones over here on the east coast I see going past my desk are Stanley Proto, Armstrong, followed by Snap-on.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:33:14 PM EDT
Now, I'm not a professional mechanic, but I've never heard of "Stanley Proto" tools before.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:40:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wulf50guy:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think someone posted here that Sears was not warrantying all Craftsman handtools like they used to, I wish I could find the thread. I think naming power tools with a one year warranty "craftsman" was a mistake.



You can thank Danaher Industries for that. They are also the reason why you can buy the Craftsman line at just about any industrial distributor now. Since they purchased the brand its went to hell.

They are just shit anymore. Snap-on and Armstrong are the two we see the most out here in my neck o' woods anymore.



distributor here
The three main ones over here on the east coast I see going past my desk are Stanley Proto, Armstrong, followed by Snap-on.



Here too, but might add, only as a pain in the ass sideline. Seriousley, the worst move Danaher did was letting every tom dick and harry have the Craftsman line, then lumping so freakin many under one umbrella. So what if they are all made by the same company? Kinda like the lowers on our ARs, aren't most made by a few mfg's? Yet, folks will sit round and argue till they are blue in the face that my XYZ is better than your ZYX!!!
You get what you pay for, and sadly, with Danaher, you might as well go fishin in the toilet.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:42:30 PM EDT
Google Stanley tools.
Grainger sells a ton of their stuff.
The company i work for (IDG) sells a lot of Stanley tools.
Stanley is the parent company.
Which breaks down to
Stanley bostich (staplers, roofing nail guns etc)
Stanley Proto ( Mechanics hand tools, toold boxes, etc.)
Stanley( basic woodworking type tools)
Stanley hardware (hinges, door accessories)
Stanley Vidmar ( those big multi drawer indusrial cabinets)
Blackhawk ( lower price mechanics tools)
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:44:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:51:09 PM EDT by wulf50guy]

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By wulf50guy:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I think someone posted here that Sears was not warrantying all Craftsman handtools like they used to, I wish I could find the thread. I think naming power tools with a one year warranty "craftsman" was a mistake.



You can thank Danaher Industries for that. They are also the reason why you can buy the Craftsman line at just about any industrial distributor now. Since they purchased the brand its went to hell.

They are just shit anymore. Snap-on and Armstrong are the two we see the most out here in my neck o' woods anymore.



distributor here
The three main ones over here on the east coast I see going past my desk are Stanley Proto, Armstrong, followed by Snap-on.



Here too, but might add, only as a pain in the ass sideline. Seriousley, the worst move Danaher did was letting every tom dick and harry have the Craftsman line, then lumping so freakin many under one umbrella. So what if they are all made by the same company? Kinda like the lowers on our ARs, aren't most made by a few mfg's? Yet, folks will sit round and argue till they are blue in the face that my XYZ is better than your ZYX!!!
You get what you pay for, and sadly, with Danaher, you might as well go fishin in the toilet.



+1 on the pain the ass.
I can't even recall how much they threw under that umbrella.
I know ofCraftsman, Armstrong, Allen, and Holokrome.

And unless I'm mistaken the Proto tools and the snap on tools are made from and by the same company.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong though, been a while since I talked to the Stanley rep.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:14:13 PM EDT
Snap on tools ARE NOT made by Stanley.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:19:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YELLOWV:
Snap on tools ARE NOT made by Stanley.



Didn't say they were made by stanley just that maybe the same forge made tools for both companies.
Snap-on being the top o the line of course.
If they don't no biggie. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:25:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:28:27 PM EDT
Don't know about the K&B (?) Haven't heard many complaints against the cobalt line as of yet.
And have no Idea who makes theirs.
Good looking tools though.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:57:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:00:49 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
Good lord.

Seems I'm the only one here that is more than satisfied with my Craftsman stuff.

I also have never had a problem with Sears taking anything back when it's broken.

Funny thing my dad has said, "They never ask how big a cheater bar you had on it"

I have found this to be quite true.

BTW, I'm not a fan of snap-on, mac, etc, etc, because I've never seen them in any stores. Kinda makes me think about the whole Colt law enforcement rifle crap, to me.

WIZZO

EDIT: And for the record, I don't buy ANY hand tools (wrenches, sockets, ratchets, etc.) that aren't made in this country.USA pride, I guess. BTW, I've never even heard about half of the companies menioned in this thread.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:19:43 PM EDT
It is not only Craftsman tools that have become thinner. I have a lot of Snap-On tools that I bought in the late 70's and all during the 80's and 90's. The Snap-On wrenches became thinner over time too. I have some old sets and some new sets. I like the older thicker wrenches better.

I have a huge mix of good quality tools. Every brand has some drawbacks in certain areas. It all depends on your needs and the job that you are performing.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:43:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mbsk01:
What's the word on K&B(?), I think that's what they are, typically sold behind the counter in auto parts stores.



are you thinking of K-D Tools? i'd consider them a middle of the road tool. nothing special, but not junk. they are also part of the danaher group.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:54:27 PM EDT
(A) Snap On is way too expensive for what you get, I don't care what anybody says it's true.
(B) Thinner wrenches are better in a lot of circumstances where there is not a lot of room.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:56:47 PM EDT
Proto and snap-on are made by the same company.

I try to only buy SK wrenches as they dont cut into your hand nearly as much as the alternative.

In central IL where my grandparents and father live SK is the standard by which others are judged. The SK will get significantly more at auction that anything else including snap-on.

My father is a millright and he will only purchase SK sockets, snap-on pliers, and any USA made wrench that is guaronted for life.

I agree with several other posters when it comes to the craftsman warranty. It really cant be beat.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:27:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:48:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On


My dad used to be a big believer in snap-on tools, until he realized that the prices are exorbitantly expensive. Since that, he goes with Mac, Matco, or Craftsman.

I'm not very mechanical, but if I were going to go with buying tools, I'd go with Craftsman or Matco.

Craftsman's stuff is made in the good ol USA!

EDIT:Their handtools IIRC are all made in the USA. My dad bought a chop saw that was made by hard working Taiwanese.



I just bought a pair of Craftsmen wire nippers and they were marked "China", I was surprized.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:14:10 AM EDT
Hell, my cheap ass will toss out another +1 for Husky hand tools. I have lots of older Craftsman stuff, but lately have been buying the Husky stuff. I make enough $$ to buy the Snap On stuff, but I just don't see a cost-benefit relationship in my favor there. My tools have never let me down, and cost about 1/3 of the Snap On stuff, right? Works for me.


Woody
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:11:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maddog_44:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On


My dad used to be a big believer in snap-on tools, until he realized that the prices are exorbitantly expensive. Since that, he goes with Mac, Matco, or Craftsman.

I'm not very mechanical, but if I were going to go with buying tools, I'd go with Craftsman or Matco.

Craftsman's stuff is made in the good ol USA!

EDIT:Their handtools IIRC are all made in the USA. My dad bought a chop saw that was made by hard working Taiwanese.



I just bought a pair of Craftsmen wire nippers and they were marked "China", I was surprized.


I have noticed that more and more stuff is marked craftsman, but is made outside the USA. You will notice that the foreign items do not have the warranty, not that I have seen at least.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:47:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mbsk01:

If you guys want a real challenge, try to find a US made vise. So far, that has been an exercise in futility.



several of wiltons higher end vises are made in the US...including the tradesman line. their other vises are not US made. if you want to give them a look, amazon and many other internet places carry the lines. they are somewhat pricey though. you may have better luck at antique shop, flea markets, estate sales/auctions. nearly all of the old vises are us made and many will be marked. wilton is part of the wmh tool group if you want to check out the corporate aspects.

..hth.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maynard:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Aimless, Craftsman torque-wrenches have a 90 day calibration warranty and a one-year defect warranty.

I've wanted to buy a torque wrench for a few years now and that pisses me off, too.




IIRC, Snap On has the same warranty for their torque wrenches.



That may be so, but to get one repaired and recalibrated will only run you about $60. I had my 1/2" Drive Torque Wrench done about a year ago, this one is 6 years old and used extensively.

I expected it to be double that, which would still be a bargain considering the cost of a new one. The internals(ratchet end) were broken and replaced, and then it was recalibrated, I paid $60. The good thing is that this tool will likely never break again, they are strong as hell. I'm not sure if you could even get a Craftsman or other brand Torque Wrench repaired AFTER the warranty is up, even if you pay.




I've also seen Snap On warranty issues based on the franchise operator. A few don't seem to want to warranty their tools.


That's the problem I'm having with my Snap On dealer. He would selectively warranty some items and refused to warranty an item that was only a week old. Granted it wasn't Snap On, but it was a $200 purchase and I spend thousands of dollars on tools(from him) annually. That was wrong.

I had it out with him because he stopped coming by our shop. We have three mechanics with enough Snap On tools to stock a dealership, but we don't buy many tools today because we already bought them all. But now that we stopped spending money every week, he stopped coming by.

We bought Snap On for two reasons, we needed high quality tools that don't break..and we knew we would have the service and warranty through our dealer who comes by weekly.

Our dealer was good to us when we all needed to buy tools, now that we need service he's been gone for six months. We have a number of items that we need replaced(mostly lost tools, but a few broken) and a few things we need to purchase. I'm done with him and have been using Matco lately. He comes by regardless, and warranties everything.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:08:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On


My dad used to be a big believer in snap-on tools, until he realized that the prices are exorbitantly expensive. Since that, he goes with Mac, Matco, or Craftsman.

I'm not very mechanical, but if I were going to go with buying tools, I'd go with Craftsman or Matco.



Matco tools are more expensive than you think, right now they cost more than any brand out there, including Snap On.

When I picked up Matco's 12pc metric long wrench set, it was more $$ than my Snap On set. Over the years I have noticed Matco Tools are priced higher than the other top tier mfgs.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:27:36 PM EDT
Well, I have broken ratchets using snipes, usually the ratcheting mecahnism dies, on one the square male end for the socket itself twisted around by a half turn.

I have broken more box end wrenches than I care to think about, usually using a snipe of whatever length.

I have yet to have Craftsman not replace a tool (except for drill bits, they quit replacing them many years ago)
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:31:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By oneshot1kill:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On


My dad used to be a big believer in snap-on tools, until he realized that the prices are exorbitantly expensive. Since that, he goes with Mac, Matco, or Craftsman.

I'm not very mechanical, but if I were going to go with buying tools, I'd go with Craftsman or Matco.



Matco tools are more expensive than you think, right now they cost more than any brand out there, including Snap On.

When I picked up Matco's 12pc metric long wrench set, it was more $$ than my Snap On set. Over the years I have noticed Matco Tools are priced higher than the other top tier mfgs.


I call

My dad says that Matco is cheaper than Snap-on and Snap-on as a co. isn't doing very well right now.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 3:03:29 PM EDT
I have made many of the dies used to form the flat blade screwdrivers for Craftsman.

Many of the Craftsman tools used to be made here in Colorado Springs by a company call Western Forge.

Craftsman has been outsourcing alot of its odd tools for some time now. I have some Craftsman 3/4" drive sockets that are marked as made in Japan and there quality is quite good. ( the nut that I use it on is torqued to 210 ft/lbs. )

Part of the change in the screwdriver dies was that by using a solid carbide insert the dies were able to finish form the blades, whereas the older process required having the finish profile ground on the tips prior to chroming. This re-engineered process cut mfg cost which helped keep this product American made.

If you look on Craftsman tools and see a letter and WF it was made in C/S and the letter indicated in which year. The dies are referbed or replaced each year as needed. If I get a chance I shoot some pics.

BTW - I also have many Snap On but quit buying after they went PC and quit making a decent calender.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 9:51:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wulf50guy:
Don't know about the K&B (?) Haven't heard many complaints against the cobalt line as of yet.
And have no Idea who makes theirs.
Good looking tools though.



Have a small set of kobalt tools. They're ok, but the ratchet reverse mechanism seems to be going bad; seems to be sticking or not wanting to engage properly. The sockets and open/closed wrenches in the set have held up well.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 11:35:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 8:31:37 AM EDT by bigscrun]

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Snap-On



SK is where its at...........open end box wrenches don't flex



Don't you have a motor to be swapping or something?.......................
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