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12/15/2017 11:52:10 PM
Posted: 4/16/2001 6:29:11 AM EST
In your opinion, to use a Ar15/M16/M4 in the countersniping role is it a good choice? And which is the right barrell lenght? 20"? 16"? 14.5"? or less? Trijicon optics (or equivalent) are ok? Or is requested more poerful optic?
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 6:38:45 AM EST
Just my opinion, but an AR is probably not a good choice at all. Since a sniper would usually set up shop upwards of 300 to 800(or more) meters away the AR's with shorter barrels are pretty useless. Ideally you'd like to have a weapon with a barrel at least 20". Plus, most every sniper would be using some type of concealment(be it thick or thin)the .223 has been know to be deflected by almost anything. Stick with a .308 that has a punch to it at 6 or 700 meters, can penetrate light cover, and you may be able to counter snipe the sniper.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 7:23:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2001 7:26:38 AM EST by MG_ME]
[left]If the sniper is good, and most of the time they are. first you won't know about it until its too late. also he(sniper) will out class you in shot's unless you got very lucky and happen to come across him without him knowing about it. but most of the time you won't know he's there until its tolate. remember the sniper earned his spot because of his ability to [b]SHOOT!!![/b][/left]
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 7:45:12 AM EST
Agree and disagree with Shirm8404. I wouldn't choose an M16 as a couter-sniper system but that's all our unit had for the job. Unless you are in an infantry, Ranger or SF unit with dedicated precision rifles, the scoped M16 is all you got. In my 1,200 man Cavalry unit all we had was 10 optical sights for Scouts to mount, and they were for the M16s. I recall reading in [i]The Ultimate Sniper[/i] that the scoped AR/M16 was a good choice for the spotter/observer. It gave the team more rapid firepower in case they ran into trouble on the way to the hide. I just watched a special where [b]both[/b] the shooter & observer carried bolt actions in their drag bags and [b]both[/b] also had an M4 to get from the LZ to the hide. You will find some good information at [url]www.snipersparadise.com[/url]. The fixed 10X seems to be the military standard with 16X on some of the .50 cal shoulder fired weapons(Barretts). I believe a 20" barrel would be my [b]minimum[/b] choice if I built on the AR platform. I'd probably go with a 24" flat-top version and a 10X optic with mil-dots. That Navy issue 10X model is available new from SWFA for $299. It is listed as the SS Tacical Tasco but is not built by Tasco. [url]www.swfa.com[/url] Good Luck
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 8:39:33 AM EST
My 1.5cents, In mil app. very limmited, In le app. very useful
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 9:42:19 AM EST
Thanks to you all. I am restricted to an AR15 only because of budget shortage. The eventual scenario is a urban one. I need to defend and countersniping with the same firearm. If I had a budget of $3000 dollars I would go in with a Remington Police 700 (fixed magazine) and a Leupold optic 10x to make the job. Unfortunately I have only half of that amount...
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 10:11:35 AM EST
Mall ninja
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 10:14:03 AM EST
Paolo...in a SHTF scenario,you are not very likely to come across a maniac with a specialized sniper rifle.Yes,I know of people who own dedicated sniper rifles,but in a SHTF scenario,those people are the ones who are the LEAST likely to be shooting at you.You would be more threatened by the average armed looter,or thug,which is taking advantage of the disaster.You could definately "snipe" a hundred times better then a .38 special armed thug blasting at you from down the street.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 11:08:28 AM EST
I like to make this comparison when speaking of 'sniper/counter-sniper' type rifle. A [b]fiddle[/b] is just a [b]violin[/b]. The style in which the musician plays it determines the name. Any rifle could be considered a 'sniper' rifle. It would all depend on it's application. I guess [i]human life[/i] or [i]equipement[/i] would be the 2 most common targets for a sniper today. You never hear the term used in hunting, where it origionally began. The name was given to those who hunted the bird called 'snipe'. This is just a little BS writing. I was bored as hell. The only counter-sniping scenario I could forsee in my life would be against someone with BATF written across the back of a set of black BDUs. This would only occur during an all-out nation-wide confiscation. I really don't plan on shooting Feds as a hobby, and hope it never has to come to that. If it did, the next currency we would be spending is the 'Euro'. That was why the forefathers made sure we had the right to keep and bear arms. They saw first hand what European rule was all about. Our govt is slowly trying to disarm us so we fit into a future [i]One World Government.[/i] They might even be cloning another Hitler from preserved DNA. The liberals might be the forward observers. Wow, did I get off topic or what? Have a good day.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 12:06:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sofa_King: Paolo...in a SHTF scenario,you are not very likely to come across a maniac with a specialized sniper rifle.Yes,I know of people who own dedicated sniper rifles,but in a SHTF scenario,those people are the ones who are the LEAST likely to be shooting at you.You would be more threatened by the average armed looter,or thug,which is taking advantage of the disaster.You could definately "snipe" a hundred times better then a .38 special armed thug blasting at you from down the street.
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You're right. I am pacific, but even living here in Italy, in a quiet zone, I have to consider all scenarios. This because I can be threaten in these days. I hope not, but since the crisis in M.E. started (my wife is Israeli) I fear that some Islamic nut, organized or not, can try to harm me or my wife. Keep in mind that I am not paranoic, my wife has a pacific mindset: she is giving English lessons to a couple of Moroccan teenagers and she's studying in a mixed classroom to learn Italian. And from there can come problems: two students there are Palestinians. Got the problem?
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 12:11:57 PM EST
My limited budget allow me to buy only an AR15. But I figure also the scenario of a siege, in which, for some hours, I have to clear from the rooftop some "audacious" guests armed with AK47 picking them up from 200-300 meters. Since the moment I can't buy a full sniper rifle, so I have to adapt an Ar15. I saw various example of M16/M4 adapted by Israelis for this purpose with a Trijicon optic. see: www.isayeret.com
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 12:19:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2001 12:20:09 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 12:25:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 12:50:34 PM EST
even though i have a pretty good idea of what "counter-sniper" means, i would like to know its textbook definition if anyone knows. curious lib
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 1:41:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2001 1:40:50 PM EST by erickm]
Originally Posted By Early Chow Recruit: Mall ninja
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I was thinking kind of too. people please get out and go hunting squirrels or rabbit or deer or something, I'm getting scared here.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 1:53:53 PM EST
If you have not already bought a AR than I would consider getting a M14, a FAL, or a HK91. These rifles are better for long range scenarios, but a AR will almost always out range a AK for combat type shooting. If you have the AR then put a scope on it (I would go with a 1.5-2 or a 3-9 power scope) and a cheek piece. Kyle
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 1:55:39 PM EST
PaoloAR15, Check out the "accurate AR" section here in AR15.com. May give you more ideas on accuritizing an AR15/M16.Good luck!
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 2:36:59 PM EST
Paolo, I think your worry is fairly legit, given your circumstances. Just don't go crazy :) Seriously, I doubt any opponent you will ever face meets the standard of "sniper" in the Russian army, to say nothing of western armies. The most you can expect is a guy with an AK or something, with minimal shooting ability. In terms of equipment, an AR will be fine. 5.56 ammo has no chance of overpenetration (shots piercing through walls and hitting bystanders) if you use hollow points (as opposed to jacketed ball rounds- this means don't use military ammo). Overpenetration would be my worry with some of the 7.62 rifles out there. I'd stick with a 16" barrel. Anyway, don't worry too much about equipment. Practice will help you more than any add ons you can think of. NOT SPEAKING FOR ANYONE BUT MYSELF.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 3:15:53 PM EST
A sniper in the most traditional sense is a marksman who takes opportunity shots at specific targets from concealment. A man with an AK can be a 'sniper'. A man with a Hi-Point 9mm carbine can be a 'sniper'. It is the method, not the tool. Probably the finest example of a true 'sniper' is the Russian sniper. US sniper/scouts are an extreme example of the sniping mission. Countersniping is a popular term belonging more in the law enforcement world than the military. Countersniping is not simply shooting back at a sniper, but is a tactic that includes prevention of sniper attacks. The tools of the countersniper are generally much more precise than that of a sniper, and a countersniper does not simply fire at any target of opportunity. The countersniper nust identify possible sniper 'hides', possible targets, timing of possible attacks....probably the best example of this is the Secret Service setting up positions prior to the Pres coming through on a parade route. The idea is prevention. An AR can be quite efficient as a countersniping rifle. Get a good free-floated 24" bull barrel, super-tight upper/lower fit, flattop upper, improved trigger, heavy rings, an excellent variable-power scope (I like my Nightforce 3.5-15X56mm), good adjustable stock, improved pistol grip, and the absolutely BEST match ammunition for your rifle (usually 69 or 77gr BTHP). Oh, and forget the bipod. shoot off of bags or a soft pack (filled with your goodies). That's a good start for a countersniping gun. For a sniper rifle, get an AR and put a 4x scope on it and zero for range. The reason for the variable scope is simple--varied engagement range (try that 75yard shot on a fast mover with a 10x) and the fact that you can dial it down and use it for search. When you get a target, dial it up for precision. Just remember, ammo has more to do with accuracy than many will believe. Get the best that functions in your weapon.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 5:22:50 PM EST
You're right. I am pacific, but even living here in Italy, in a quiet zone, I have to consider all scenarios. This because I can be threaten in these days. I hope not, but since the crisis in M.E. started (my wife is Israeli) I fear that some Islamic nut, organized or not, can try to harm me or my wife. Keep in mind that I am not paranoic, my wife has a pacific mindset: she is giving English lessons to a couple of Moroccan teenagers and she's studying in a mixed classroom to learn Italian. And from there can come problems: two students there are Palestinians. Got the problem?
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PaoloAR15... I think it has become clear that your needs would be better met by a more "all around" AR configuration. Frankly, if a sniper worth his salt takes a shot at you or a family member in an urban setting, you will never know where the shot came from until it is far too late and the sniper is secure far away from the scene. My suggestion would be to invest in a 16" barrel length set up. If you want you can have it in a flat top so you can use a variety of sighting selections (red dot, etc.) or you can use a carry handle upper and use an over handguard sight mount and still have the option of using iron sights at a reduced cost than the flat top setup. Your particular scenerio will be better served this way. You don't want to go "hunting" a sniper anyway - you would end up dead. You definately have some legitimate concerns... hope you never have a problem and you and yours live to be very old! [sniper] The Sniper
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 7:18:39 PM EST
The Sniper is right. You need a general-use rifle, which the 16(or even 14.5 in) barreled AR is perfect for. The only good way to get rid of a trained sniper is by using---another trained sniper. Military ball is the ONLY ammo I would use, over-penetration is not much of a concern with 5.56mm, and it's what the weapon was designed to use.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 7:34:53 PM EST
There must be a big difference in price there. A Remington 700 Police and very good optics would only cost you in the $1500 range here in the states. The actual cost of a post-ban AR and the Remington are about the same. CHZ
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 8:14:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2001 8:20:45 PM EST by rugger]
Best way to get ride of a "Sniper" is to "call for fire". But since that is an option civilians don't have, and you're bound to get a different opinion from everyone that replies to this post. I would recommend a weapon that fits in the following. 1) you feel comfortable with it. 2)you can shoot it consistently and accurately with iron sites. 3)quality ammo is readily available, not nessecarily match rounds. 4)you can make minor repairs and parts are readily avilable. 5) a weapon you have with you is better than one at home. But if you must have an AR, a standard 20" a2 or flat top with handle should suffice. not to big for urban, barrel gives it extra reach in the open. Site radius helps for more accurate shooting. Buy a nice 4x or 3-9x scope for touchy stuff. Spend the money you save by not buying all that "high speed" crap on training. .02 rugger Can you even own these in Italy?
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 9:46:49 PM EST
just buy an Accuracy International AWM in .338 Laupa. [}:D] That'd let you shoot out to 1200yrds (if your good enough to do that), way beyond the average police/national guard sniper could and probably beyond most active duty snipers.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 9:55:33 PM EST
Ground assault is good for the rifles you mention. Try this for a sniper rifle, suggest .300 WinMag [url]http://www.arnoldarms.com/default.html[/url] [rail]Railgun....
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 2:13:58 AM EST
Rugger, While you make some good points, I believe you discount ammunition quality and weapon capability too quickly. A man's ability can be limited by the quality of the rifle and optics. A capable rifle can be limited by ammunition quality. I agree that training/practice is QUITE important, however I also recognise that one must use equipment that is up to the task. As a 'countersniper' rifle, extreme repeatability is important. This is not something you get from a rifle and ammo that together group 2.5moa-4moa (the most common range for military weapons). As to sniper hunts, it is probably the most difficult LE mission you can be involved in, for many of the reasons given in the above posts. I am surprised at how many people here would equate a 'terrorist sniper' with a Marine scout/sniper in ability. In actuality, they would be much closer to joe blow with a deer rifle that a highly specialized and trained operator. It seems when someone says the word 'sniper', it's like some kind of indian word for 'you are dead no matter what'. Truth be told, the heavy-mojo shooters are a rare breed, not usually found in a terrorist organization (much less civilian society). SCRUM, SIR!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 4:43:57 AM EST
Thanks to you all for help. Of course, getting trained and take precautions against such an eventuality is a very different thing from hoping this will ever happen. It's like when I was servicing in the paratroops: when jumping better to wear a reserve chute and hoping to use it never. I am quit calm and cool, I enjoy life here, and my wife too. But, you know, when crazy nuts can be around thinking that you can be a possible target, better to be ready... Again, thank to all of you!!!
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 2:35:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Charmedlyfe: Rugger, While you make some good points, I believe you discount ammunition quality and weapon capability too quickly. A man's ability can be limited by the quality of the rifle and optics. A capable rifle can be limited by ammunition quality. I agree that training/practice is QUITE important, however I also recognise that one must use equipment that is up to the task. As a 'countersniper' rifle, extreme repeatability is important. This is not something you get from a rifle and ammo that together group 2.5moa-4moa (the most common range for military weapons). As to sniper hunts, it is probably the most difficult LE mission you can be involved in, for many of the reasons given in the above posts. I am surprised at how many people here would equate a 'terrorist sniper' with a Marine scout/sniper in ability. In actuality, they would be much closer to joe blow with a deer rifle that a highly specialized and trained operator. It seems when someone says the word 'sniper', it's like some kind of indian word for 'you are dead no matter what'. Truth be told, the heavy-mojo shooters are a rare breed, not usually found in a terrorist organization (much less civilian society). SCRUM, SIR!!!!!
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I do believe/ know that both weapon and ammo capability are vital in precision shooting; and a good ammo, optics , and weapon selection can give an edge a less trained marksman. However I believe it is a rare breed of people that can maximize such a combo. I have seen many people with great set-ups who can not even come close to the rifles potential when on the range let alone in a stressful situation. Ideally one would have a great weapon system and the money to get training i.e. "real" instruction/ ammo. I guess I was looking at the overall scenario "a siege, in which, for some hours, I have to clear from the rooftop some "audacious" guests armed with AK47 picking them up from 200-300 meters [PaoloAR15]." In this case I think a normal AR would work fine. I'm not to amazed at the misconceptions of a "sniper" would also agree that the average "sniper" one would encounter would be nothing more than a bubba with a rifle, however they can not be underestimated. But a far cry from the capabilities of Marine Scout/Sniper, in which case the question of which counter sniper rifle should I get would be a moot point because it wouldn't matter. I actually find these types of well trained shooters quite a bit either at the gun shop I frequent, or at they local watering hole on a Friday night. Gun store -"I shoot 1" groups with my Browning A-bolt w/boss at 300 yards, because I tune the barrel for my ammo" Bar-"I was with sniper Battalion" Cheers, rugger You play?
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 2:56:59 PM EST
While I agree with the general opinion that the AR is not ideal for long range use, it sure can get the job done. AR shooters out shoot M1A shooters at 600, all of the time. This is with 80 grain bullets that have to be single loaded, but the Hornady 75 gr HPBT will fit into the magazine, and it should do OK at 600 (it catches less wind at 300 than the .308 168 gr HPBT fired from a gas gun). Bottom line, it's more the guy behind the rifle than the rifle.
Link Posted: 4/19/2001 3:57:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Don S: While I agree with the general opinion that the AR is not ideal for long range use, it sure can get the job done.
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This is a fact that many don't seem to understand Don S. While the stock configuration AR is not designed for long range use, it certainly is much more able than most realize. In fact stock ARs are capable of better accuracy than most of those who shoot them (stock triggers excepted here). You have to be careful when fooling around with the trigger situation on an AR. Remember - this is a battle rifle and you don't want a light trigger when humping in the boonies. I have found that some minor work - and I do mean minor such as polishing surfaces can greatly reduce the smoothness of the trigger pull thus giving the perception of a lighter trigger. Unless you are skilled at this type of enhancement - spend the bucks and take it to a quality smith for the work. Now if you are looking for a long range machine and that is all you will use it for - then opt for one of the match/free floated barrel setups which can be had in kit form and they are excellent "varmint solvers" - put as light a trigger as you want on these - with the extra weight, your not gonna be humping this one very far anyway. Choose the best tool for the most likely scenerio you will face - it will serve you well when the need arises. If you have the wrong tool at the wrong time - you are probably gonna have a bad day. Are most shooters realistically going to be engaging anything at 300+ meters - rather doubt it. How about 100 or less? Much more likely and let's face it - that is not the time to be peeking through a 20x scope or trying to swing a 24" target setup around. A compact battle rifle with a couple of stuffed 30 rounders clipped together will make you feel all warm and cozy at times like these.... [:D] [sniper] The Sniper
Link Posted: 4/19/2001 6:51:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/20/2001 12:03:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Troy: The problem with the AR is NOT accuracy; ARs can and have been made more than accurate for the job. The problem is that .223 ammo is heavily velocity-dependant in order to create wound damage. Even from a 20" AR using SP ammo, wound damage will be minimal beyond 300 unless you can score a direct hit to the CNS, and those hits can't be counted on. ARs are fine for the "police sniper" role, where shots are ALWAYS under 200m. For the military sniper role (300m+), ARs just don't have the horsepower. Now, the AR10... :) -Troy
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The nearest building eligible for a sniper position is 200 meters far from my home. If I have to shoot more than 300 meters, I would use a CZ 550 carbine with 10 x riflescope in .308 Win or in 6,5 x 55 Swedish. With 750 USD you have something that can put three rounds in one inch at 300 meters, Meopta optics included.
Link Posted: 4/20/2001 3:57:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/20/2001 4:01:38 AM EST by Charmedlyfe]
Rugger, Tight prop through college, and a few years with a city team in SC. I really miss it. When I get another job with health insurance, I'll play again. Given the circumstances, Paolo's role is more as a sniper than counter-sniper. A good 20" AR w/ 1/7 or 1/9 twist and a Trijicon ACOG 4x would be perfect. Rugger, you must hang in interesting circles. The gunshop gurus I usually run into usually get confused when I ask'em about PBR and wind deflection vs. drift. Most claim
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