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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/13/2004 2:48:20 PM EST
i was put in an awkward situation a few weeks ago, and i was wondering if i could get some input from you gun experts here.

i had someone try to buy a gun from my place of employment, and they answered 'yes' to one of the 13 questions. well. i told him i could not sell him that firearm because he answered to a 'yes' to a question, and kept his answer when i asked him if everything was correct on the 4473.

well, he went and told my manager that he was 'other than honorable', not dishonorably discharged like he wrote and verified was correct when i asked him if he filled it out correctly. well, my manager comes over to me and tells me to trash his old 4473, give him a new one to fill out, and sell him the handgun.

i told him (my manager) that i would not do it, which kind of frosted him. well, the guy came back about a half hour later saying the background check people heard his story, said it was ok, and that he could buy the gun.

well, i called the background check people and they told me he only told them he was 'other than honorably' discharged. so, i called the ATF, and a field agent told me, 'dont you dare sell him that gun'.

well, my manager still wanted me to sell him the firearm and trash his old 4473, which i never did.

anyhow, was my manager in the wrong, and what could be the outcome of this situation in terms of legal matters?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:51:52 PM EST
were they not asking me to commit numerous felonies, both on the state and federal level?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:52:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:53:22 PM EST
Talk to a lawyer. Follow all the laws, ask the background check people how to handle things.

If you are terminated for following the laws you have a huge wrongful termination lawsuit.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:53:48 PM EST
I think if the ATF tells you not to sell it, you better not sell it unless you want a nightstick up your ass and your dog shot.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:54:58 PM EST
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:55:04 PM EST
You are not required to do anything other than ask the question. If the response is acceptable (and I don't think there is any rule about how many attempts it takes) then the problem is for the puchaser if it is subsequently proved that he lied.

However, you are also under no obligation to sell if you suspect something is amiss, just as would be the case if you suspected a straw purchase.

In this case the purchaser has two options:

1. Bring in his discharge certificate shoeing "other than honorable", which is acceptable.

2. Go somewhere else and try not to screw up the paperwork on the first pass.

If your boss wants to sell, and has an FFL, he can process the paperwork using his number.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:55:16 PM EST
i wasn't fired, i quit. they are still with-holding pay from me.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:56:59 PM EST
Listen to the ATF agent.

You called him directly on your own and he told you, if you do it now it is all on you. You can't plead ignorance.

Let your Boss sell him the gun if he wants to.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:58:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.



I know a guy that got an "other than honerable" discharge. It's not a dishonorable discharge, and after a certain time period he can attempt to have it converted to an honorable discharge. Are you military, and have never heard of this?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:00:36 PM EST
Your not allowed to trash the form 4473.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:01:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:
i wasn't fired, i quit. they are still with-holding pay from me.



Get his ass busted for that. And then call the ATF and tell them the whole story, he ought to get some shit from that.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:03:24 PM EST
Bust that fucker! You have to do some pretty bad shit to get an "other than honorable"
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:03:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.



There is an "other than honorable" discharge that does not carry the legal ramifications of a dishonorable discharge. Dishonorables are tough to come by without criminal activity. Run of the mill dirtbags can garner a "general under honorable conditions" and better than run of the mill can get an OTH. I don't know what the firearms-pruchasing implications of an OTH are, but I don't believe that they would be as severe as the dishonorable.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:03:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:04:26 PM EST by PBIR]


Your not allowed to trash the form 4473.


Yes you are if it has not been called in.

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:04:26 PM EST

The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


your wrong...theres honorable, general, medical, other than honorable, ect.


but i still wouldn't have sold it to him. thats not something that would just slip ones mind.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:04:32 PM EST
good for you for standing up for what you felt. I worked at a local gun shop that was shut down for straw sales and other questionable infractions. Luckily the investigation was started long before my time there and I was not around when they took place.

The owner and other employee we recently sentenced and it wasn't pretty.

When in dobt don't let yourself open for somone elses gain.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:08:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:22:13 PM EST by tommytrauma]

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.



Trey, you're mistaken. There are many types of discharge. (Just ask any doctor. )

It is quite possible to receive, say, a hardship discharge if you have to seperate early due to health issues in your family or such. These folks aren't given an honorable, but can petition that it be changed to one later. A trainee who is discharged during Basic when it's discovered that he has previously undiagnosed asthma isnt given a honorable, but it's not a dishonorable either.

A dishonorable discharge is roughly equivilent to a felony conviction.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:19:01 PM EST
point,
You need to file a grievance with your State Labor Dep't if your former employer is with holding any pay from you. They will get it straightened out in short order.

You did right on refusing to sell the gun. Let the FFL holder sell it if he wants to so badly. It's his ass on the line.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:22:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:23:33 PM EST by Trey-W]
Guys sorry, I am mistaken.
But there is no specific "other than honorable discharge".


A less than honorable discharge refers to a discharge that occurs under other than honorable conditions . This can be due to generally improper conduct, conviction of a crime either in a military court martial or a civilian court, or some other inappropriate action on the part of a soldier or someone associated with that soldier.

The United States military subdivides less-than-honorable discharges into four categories, in increasing order of severity:

general discharge;
undesirable discharge;
bad conduct discharge; and
dishonorable discharge.


Undesirable discharges or worse disqualify the soldier from receiving veterans' benefits under most circumstances, and any less-than-honorable discharge - even a general discharge - usually renders the discharged soldier ineligible for unemployment insurance benefits, because such a discharge is considered tantamount to having been "fired" from the most recently-held job.




The potential buyer hasnt been very specific about his status either. Given the fact that he wrote dishonorable discharge and then changed his mind, knowing that "other than honorable" is a general category for bad shit discharges then it seems suspicous.



Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:24:45 PM EST
Other than honorable means they're a shit-bag.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:53:58 PM EST
If the ATF said no and you didnt .......then you probably did the right thing
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:58:48 PM EST
You are still wrong.

Discharge—complete severance from all military status gained by the enlistment or induction concerned.

Separation—a general term that includes discharge, release from active duty, transfer to the Reserve or Retired List, release from custody and control of the military services, transfer to the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), and similar changes in active or reserve status


There are two types of separations given by the Armed Forces of the United States to enlisted service members:
(1) Punitive Discharges
(2) Administrative Seperations


PUNITIVE DISCHARGES
Punitive discharges are authorized punishments of courts-martial.
They can only be awarded as an approved sentence of a court-martial following a conviction for a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

There are two types of punitive discharges.

The first type is a dishonorable discharge (DD).
A DD can only be adjudged by a general court-martial (GCM) and is a separation under dishonorable conditions.

The second type of punitive discharge is a bad-conduct discharge (BCD).
A BCD can be adjudged by either a GCM or a special court-martial (SPCM) and is a separation under conditions other than honorable.


ADMINISTRATIVE SEPARATIONS

Members of the military service may be separated administratively for many reasons.
Some separations are characterized and some are not.
Different types of characterized and uncharacterized separations.

Any member being separated, except those separated for immediate reenlistment, must be advised of the purpose and authority of the Naval Discharge Review Board (NDRB) and the Board for Correction of Naval Records (BCNR) at the time of processing for such a separation

Characterized Separations Separations are characterized as honorable, general (under honorable conditions), or under other than honorable (OTH) conditions.

HONORABLE.— An honorable separation is with honor. The quality of the member’s service has met the standards of acceptable conduct and performance of duty or is otherwise so meritorious that any other characteization would be clearly inappropriate. An honorable separation requires a minimum final average for the current enlistment in performance and conduct marks of 2.8 and a minimum average in personal behavior of 3.0. A member who would be eligible for a charactrization of service as general may receive an honorable discharge if he or she was awarded certain personal decorations. These personal decorations could be, for example, the Medal of Honor, Navy Commendation, or Navy Achievement Medal.

GENERAL (UNDER HONORABLE CONDITIONS).— The general characterization is proper when service has been honest and faithful. However, significant negative aspects of the member’s conduct or performance of duty outweigh the positive aspects. A characterization of separation as general is under honorable conditions and entitles the member to all veterans’ benefits. A member would be eligible for a characterization of separation as general if the member’s final average for performance and conduct marks fall below 2.8 and below 3.0 in personal behavior.

UNDER OTHER THAN HONORABLE CONDITIONS.— A characterization of OTH is appropriate when the reason for separation is based upon a pattern of adverse behavior or one or more acts that arc a significant departure from the conduct expected from members of the naval service.
Persons who receive an OTH discharge are not entitled to retain their uniforms or wear them home. However, they may be furnished civilian clothing at a cost of not more than $50. They must accept transportation in kind to their home of record. They are not eligible for notice of discharge to employers. The Department of Veterans Affairs makes its own determination with respect to the benefits as to whether the discharge was under conditions other than honorable

Uncharacterized Separations

These types of separations are separations that, due to the short duration of service, are uncharacterized.

ENTRY LEVEL SEPARATION.— A member in an entry level status (first 180 days of a period of continuous active military service) will ordinarily be separated with an entry level separation (ELS). The exceptions to this are (1) when characterization under OTH conditions is authorized under the reason for separation and is warranted by the circumstances of the case and (2) when characterization as honorable is clearly warranted by the presence of unusual circumstances involving personal conduct and performance of duty. These types of cases must be approved by the Secretary of the Navy (SECNAV).

VOID ENLISTMENT OR INDUCTION.— A member whose enlistment or induction is void will not receive a discharge certificate, characterization of service, or an ELS. The separation will be an order of release from custody and control of the Navy. Reasons supporting a void enlistment include the following: . Enlistment without the voluntary consent of a person who has the capacity to understand the significance of enlisting. This may include enlistment of a person who was intoxicated or insane at the time of enlistment. It may also include a person who was coerced into enlisting by being presented with the option of enlisting or going to jail, person under the age of 17 or a deserter from another service.


Originally Posted By Trey-W:
Guys sorry, I am mistaken.
But there is no specific "other than honorable discharge".


A less than honorable discharge refers to a discharge that occurs under other than honorable conditions . This can be due to generally improper conduct, conviction of a crime either in a military court martial or a civilian court, or some other inappropriate action on the part of a soldier or someone associated with that soldier.

The United States military subdivides less-than-honorable discharges into four categories, in increasing order of severity:

general discharge;
undesirable discharge;
bad conduct discharge; and
dishonorable discharge.


Undesirable discharges or worse disqualify the soldier from receiving veterans' benefits under most circumstances, and any less-than-honorable discharge - even a general discharge - usually renders the discharged soldier ineligible for unemployment insurance benefits, because such a discharge is considered tantamount to having been "fired" from the most recently-held job.




The potential buyer hasnt been very specific about his status either. Given the fact that he wrote dishonorable discharge and then changed his mind, knowing that "other than honorable" is a general category for bad shit discharges then it seems suspicous.




Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:02:07 PM EST
you quit just because of this one guy???????
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:09:14 PM EST
Sorry to get off topic here, but what... other than obvious stuff would get someone dishonourably discharged from the US Mil.?
And... if someone is DD'd does the stigma follow them for ever (and ever)?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:31:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:39:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.



UNLESS yer name is John sKerry.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:39:23 PM EST
if i can acquire a copy of the 4473 they wanted me to trash (which i can) and have two witnesses, would it be smart to take this a step further?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:00:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:10:17 PM EST
My final question is why didn't the manager sell the guy the gun.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:11:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
My final question is why didn't the manager sell the guy the gun.



it wasnt his department, or some bullshit like that.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:17:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.




Incorrect
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:22:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Girlieman:
Sorry to get off topic here, but what... other than obvious stuff would get someone dishonourably discharged from the US Mil.?
And... if someone is DD'd does the stigma follow them for ever (and ever)?


Well it depends on what branch . For instance in the CG you can comit perjury ,adultry, AND use LSD while active duty , and still be active duty.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:09:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By MagKnightX:
I think if the ATF tells you not to sell it, you better not sell it unless you want a nightstick up your ass and your dog shot. and your house burnt down




fixed it
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:21:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
The ATF answered your question. In the military, there is no "maybe, kinda, not really, sometimes, depends on who you ask and what time of day it is" discharge. It is either honorable or dishonorable.

If the law states that that dishonorable discharges can not purchase a handgun (or anygun for that matter) then thats the law.



There is an "other than honorable" discharge that does not carry the legal ramifications of a dishonorable discharge. Dishonorables are tough to come by without criminal activity. Run of the mill dirtbags can garner a "general under honorable conditions" and better than run of the mill can get an OTH. I don't know what the firearms-pruchasing implications of an OTH are, but I don't believe that they would be as severe as the dishonorable.



ONLY a DISHONORABLE discharge bears the gun-law penalty

Administrative
Other than Honorable
General
Honorable
Bad Conduct

All of the above are 'OK' for gun purchases...

However, you pretty much have to WORK to get a DD, it generally involves some stockade time, or is sometimes takein in leiu of time...
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:21:36 PM EST
Christ!!!! Who cares why the A-hole got discharged. The fact of the matter is poink quit because his employer was a dirt bag. File a complaint with the ATF, and the CO Attorney Generals office.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:30:38 PM EST
I will wait for the rest of this story.


Why do you feel this guy is with holding your pay check Poink?

Is this the same empoyeer that wont mail you your paycheck?


Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:52:40 PM EST
Damn, I hate to ask this question for personal reasons but this is along some simliar line of subject matter here, and it has bothered me for some time now.

My Father In Law is still active duty, and I asked him if he was interested in a CMP rifle about a half a year ago. He said he couldn't because he had a felony on his record. I called B.S. because I didn't think you could be a felon and still be in the military. I asked him what his crime was and he said when he was young he had written some bad checks after he joined the military. ( This is a felony?) I dont know the details, or military laws, then or now, but I really like my Father In Law, I dont want to pry any further even though I'm not entirely convinced about what he said. He's either hiding something or he doesnt have a clue about his own disposition. Can anyone shed some light on this? Can you have a felony and still remain in the military?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:53:39 PM EST
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:10:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.



but does that mean he could still be in the service with a felony on his record?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:19:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By moneyshot:

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.



but does that mean he could still be in the service with a felony on his record?


Wouldn't surprise me at all.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:40:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By moneyshot:

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.



but does that mean he could still be in the service with a felony on his record?



Commander's discretion, if he was sentanced to probation, a fine, or some other penalty that did not interfere with hisability to do his duties....

At the PRESENT, it would bar him from getting IN, however....
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:13:49 PM EST
Yes.

And if he really does have a felony conviction he can't use firearms in the course of his normal duty either.

One of the guys I had on my Navy ASF watch section was removed once I found out he had a felony record.


Originally Posted By moneyshot:

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.



but does that mean he could still be in the service with a felony on his record?

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:22:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
A trainee who is discharged during Basic when it's discovered that he has previously undiagnosed asthma isnt given a honorable, but it's not a dishonorable either.

A dishonorable discharge is roughly equivilent to a felony conviction.




That is correct.

The "character of service" is usually listied as "uncharacterized" due to a condition that "existed prior to service" (EPTS) and the discharge is officially for "failure to meet medical procurement requirements."

I had to look all of this up in the maze of Army regs for a client.

It is neither an "honorable" or a "dishonorable." It is "uncharacterized" because the trainee didn't even get far enough for a character of servive to attach.

It means nothing really and most who receive this are not prohibited from re-enlistment, as they would be with a less than honorable discharge, IIRC, but they would be required to receive a waiver for the condition.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:35:30 PM EST
Has your boss done this before?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:46:38 PM EST
Convenience of the government is an other than honorable discharge but does not fall under a dishonorable discharge.
The only way to have your rights revoked is to have recieved a dishonorable discharge.
Therefore he should be allowed to purchase the firearm.
That IS the law.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:55:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Yes.

And if he really does have a felony conviction he can't use firearms in the course of his normal duty either.

One of the guys I had on my Navy ASF watch section was removed once I found out he had a felony record.


Originally Posted By moneyshot:

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
If they are over a certain dollar amount I believe they are a fellony.



but does that mean he could still be in the service with a felony on his record?




Yes, his duties do not require him to be around or handle firearms. I just think thats crazy though that you could have a felony conviction but still have a perfectly honorable military career with honorable discharge.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:00:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:19:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
poink,,
You have IM


FED
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:19:14 AM EST
In the good old days, you could get a DD or BCD upgraded, especially in the Carter and probably early Reagan years. This was because a lot of guys, many of whom were minoritiesmaybe kinds got more clobbered than others when caught with marijuana etc. Or that was the rationale. Supposedly a lot of guys got "Bad Paper" for crimes the Military treated as felonies but were misdemeanors out in the real world.

Also in the good old days employers cared about hiring good people and asked for Discharge information, that has gone away over the years as fewer and fewer vets are around in the general population.

Bad Paper will prevent a clearance and that means no defense industry job, but that has plummeted too.

These days if you get Bad Paper, you really gotta be a criminal fuck-up. General other than Honorable you're a Sad Sack or screw-up, but not a major criminal.

As far as having a felony and being on active duty and not being able to be around firearms, that doesn't sound reasonable. I can understand that if you are now a short-timer lifer and these are remnants from your first enlistment, they aren't going to have any effect for more than a couple of the next re-ups. Not being able to be around firearms, UNLESS it is due to one of the Spouse Abuse clangers, doesn't sound right. I know that in 20+ years nowhere did we ever ask or care, if you were in the unit we taught you how to shoot. And I know that if the SHTF, everybody was going to get armed (hopefully). That said, realistically in many of the services outside the combat arms or ranks/rates in the Navy, you may never ever see a gun, but not because you have a lingering felony, you just don't need iot for your job. Now if you were in a Combat Arm or rate that required working with firearms and you had one of these no-no's , I expect that you would be thanked for your participation and moved to where it wasn't an issue or tossed.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:25:55 PM EST
i spoke with the ATF. they want to have a sitdown.
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