Could a single modern-day Marine unit destroy the Roman Empire? - Page 1

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Posted: 11/1/2011 1:19:55 PM EST

It was a hypothetical question that became a long online discussion and now a movie in development: Could a small group of heavily armed modern-day Marines take down the Roman Empire at its height? We talked about the debate with James Erwin, the man who scored a movie writing contract based on his online response, and ran the ideas by Roman history expert Adrian Goldsworthy.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/fact-vs-fiction/rome-sweet-rome-could-a-single-marine-unit-destroy-the-roman-empire?click=pm_latest

Discuss.

Edit: Title typo

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:21:05 PM EST

[#1]

With good choice of defensive positions and unlimited 30 rd m4 mags i bet they could. You could kill a lot of guys with spears with an AR and unlimited ammo.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:22:08 PM EST

[#2]

They'll own everything in sight until they run out of ammo/fuel.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:24:15 PM EST

[#3]

If they had to go up against 100,000 unflinching Romans who would charge into firearms, not even knowing what they are? No. That would never happen, though. You don't need to kill every Roman to take control.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:25:06 PM EST

[#4]

Quoted:

With good choice of defensive positions and unlimited 30 rd m4 mags i bet they could. You could kill a lot of guys with spears with an AR and unlimited ammo.

Logistics.

Do the Marines have enough ammo to kill enough Romans to make a difference?

If yes, Marines win. If no, Marines end up playing tag with lions.

Perhaps if they could get close to Rome itself and try to take the city . . . but the Romans would still not acknowledge them are rulers and the moment they ran out of ammunition they would get fed swords.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:25:18 PM EST

[#5]

Arrows have a pretty decent range considering and can do nasty things.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:25:27 PM EST

[#6]

Depends on how much ammo they could get.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:25:28 PM EST

[#7]

Quoted:

They'll own everything in sight until they run out of ammo/fuel.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:25:34 PM EST

[#8]

Do they get a magical infinite ammo button?

If so, give them a few miniguns and maybe...

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:27:12 PM EST

[#9]

They would take one look at those marines and their gear and surrender, thinking that they are aliens

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:27:39 PM EST

[#10]

Yes, if they had resupply support.

Logistics drives armies. Marines would own until ammo dried up. After that, well....not so much.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:29:28 PM EST

[#11]

no.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:30:10 PM EST

[#12]

Quoted:
Do they get a magical infinite ammo button?

If so, give them a few miniguns and maybe...

From the article:

"In the reddit story, however, Erwin said the Marines would not be resupplied with bullets, batteries, or gasoline from the modern world. "There would be no way of obtaining replacements for these supplies in the ancient world," Goldsworthy says. "An average unit of Marines is not likely to be able to make an oil refinery, start generating electricity, or create machine tools to make spare parts for equipment." And even if they could figure it out, it would take many months or even years. So, as soon as the Marines ran out of gas, their tanks would become little more than hunks of metal.

"In the short term and in the open, modern infantry could massacre any ancient soldiers at little risk to themselves," Goldsworthy says. "But you could not support modern infantry. So all of these weapons and vehicles could make a brief, dramatic, and even devastating appearance, but would very quickly become useless. Probably in a matter of days.""

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:30:18 PM EST

[#13]

240s and Mk19's can do very bad things.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:30:32 PM EST

[#14]

Where would they restock ammo and get lubricant for maintainence?

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:31:11 PM EST

[#15]

So few men would be no match for the Roman Empire. One needs only look at the Punic wars to see their determination in such endeavors.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:31:25 PM EST

[#16]

What's the range of a longbow a trebuchet?

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:31:46 PM EST

[#17]

Do any of you realize how big the Roman empire was?

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:31:59 PM EST

[#18]

No the Marines would be overwelmed.

Don't forget that the Romans had tribouchets and super-long range crossbow type weapons

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:32:05 PM EST

[#19]

as said no logistics

I think they would have to go the bluff route like Lewis and Clark did with their airguns

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:33:07 PM EST

[#20]

The Romans were masters of building fortifications, walls, and starving out their enemies.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:34:00 PM EST

[#21]

No.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:34:03 PM EST

[#22]

Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:34:14 PM EST

[#23]

I would think that until you run out of batteries, night time ambushes would be the way to go.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:34:22 PM EST

[#24]

Yes, but they would have to do it by show of force, without revealing logistics were limited.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:34:45 PM EST

[#25]

They could simply waltz into the capitol before firing any shots and claim to be gods themselves. Don't believe the marines? Strike them down with godly powers (a round to the face).

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:35:19 PM EST

[#26]

Quoted:

Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

Get 20 men with a tree truck and jam it into the tracks.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:35:19 PM EST

[#27]

Quoted:

Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

As long as they are buttoned up and have fuel. Once the Romans figure out it will run out of fuel . . . they will be patient and catch them with their pants down. They have to refuel sometime, rest, etc.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:35:23 PM EST

[#28]

Quoted:
Do any of you realize how big the Roman empire was?

Yes. That's why they'd need to be transported near Rome. Defeat the Legion(s) there, co-opt the remaining Legions into doing your bidding with the threat of magic/god-like weapons.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:36:37 PM EST

[#29]

They could really wreck some shit for a bit, and have some awesome nighttime guerrilla warfare fun. In the end I think the Roman Empire comes out on top.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:36:54 PM EST

[#30]

Nope, the Romans would lay waste to a modern unit a number of different ways.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:37:25 PM EST

[#31]

Quoted:
They could simply waltz into the capitol before firing any shots and claim to be gods themselves. Don't believe the marines? Strike them down with godly powers (a round to the face).

Pretty sure they understood the concept of projectiles, once you starting spewing empty brass all over and have to reload the gig would be up quickly if you got cornered.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:37:54 PM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
Do any of you realize how big the Roman empire was?

And it was all ruled by one man from one city. All you have to do is get him on board, which would not be too difficult.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:38:18 PM EST

[#33]

Quoted:
With good choice of defensive positions and unlimited 30 rd m4 mags i bet they could. You could kill a lot of guys with spears with an AR and unlimited ammo.

I hope they have spare bolts and barrels.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:39:15 PM EST

[#34]

With a MEU? Fuck yeah. There would barely need to be any shots fired after people pissed themselves at the sight of harriers/helos. Add to that, the fact that one tank could kill any amount of Romans just by running them over.

It would pretty much be a mission to fly in when the senate was in session, kill everyone in the building and the MEU commander would declare himself Caeser.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:40:31 PM EST

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

As long as they are buttoned up and have fuel. Once the Romans figure out it will run out of fuel . . . they will be patient and catch them with their pants down. They have to refuel sometime, rest, etc.

I think the shock of what they are witnessing would be enough to cause a surrender.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:40:36 PM EST

[#36]

Artillery, air support?

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:41:16 PM EST

[#37]

Quoted:
Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

Dig a pit, cover it with dirt and shrubs, lure them onto it. Now you have APC and troops trapped in a pit.
Kill it all with fire.

Romans weren't stupid, they'd figure this shit out in no time.

No, they wouldn't just give up. Although not historical, I think this sums it up.

Quitas: People should know when they're conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintas? Would I?

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:41:57 PM EST

[#38]

With enough ammo, yes

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:42:02 PM EST

[#39]

theres a big difference between a small group of marines and a fucking MEU that is referenced in the original article.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:42:46 PM EST

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are there any vehicles involved? I don't think too much could of been done against a APC.

Dig a pit, cover it with dirt and shrubs, lure them onto it. Now you have APC and troops trapped in a pit.
Kill it all with fire.

Romans weren't stupid, they'd figure this shit out in no time.

Mehh... It's not likely that they would get close with another track nearby.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:43:08 PM EST

[#41]

I bet an 81mm mortar would tear the hell out of that phalanx.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:43:09 PM EST

[#42]

The Roman legions were more technologically advanced than their enemies, they had better misunderstanding of tactics and they had better equipment, man for man it was a massacre, but once their lines of supply were cut off and their numbers were worn down by repeated attacks they passed into history......

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:45:18 PM EST

[#43]

Quoted:
theres a big difference between a small group of marines and a fucking MEU that is referenced in the original article.

Even so. Against roughly 300,000 soldiers, and a city of a million?

The best way to do it would be to convince someone really high up that you were all powerful and there were a lot more of you coming, and gain control of the warriors.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:45:41 PM EST

[#44]

Fuck yea the Marines could.

Look to see what is involved in a modern Marine unit.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:47:43 PM EST

[#45]

They'd need to be a bunch of hiking motherfuckers.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:47:51 PM EST

[#46]

It all comes down to re-supply. If the Marines have resupply, there's nothing to prevent them from taking over. Without it? It's just a matter of time until you run out of ammunition, fuel and food.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:47:53 PM EST

[#47]

Quoted:
Fuck yea the Marines could.

Look to see what is involved in a modern Marine unit.

And what happens when they run out of gas? Short term they will win battles but they would not win the war.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:48:00 PM EST

[#48]

Quoted:
The Romans were masters of building fortifications, walls, and starving out their enemies.

But they never faced mortars, and artillery rounds.

Posted: 11/1/2011 1:48:53 PM EST

[#49]

Blow out the first legion they run into, recruit local cannon fodder with contemporaneous arms after victory, in each following battle the cannon fodder fix most of the enemy in place while the Marines punch out the enemy command, then the USMC sits back and lets the local cannon fodder roll up the remaining disorganized enemy units. Alexander used a very modest force of heavy infantry to kick ass over and over again in a similar way. Ammo expenditure would be very reasonable.

They could stretch supplies for a year or two until they got black powder weapons into production. For that matter, simply enforcing modern hygiene and fieldcraft would radically reduce losses to disease. Remember that many wars back then swung on which side had half of their army killed by a plague first.