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Posted: 1/28/2011 8:50:55 PM EDT
Published: Friday, 28 Jan 2011 | 10:57 AM ET Text Size By: Reuters

The move by Egyptian authorities to seal off the country almost entirely from the Internet shows how easily a state can isolate its people when telecoms providers are few and compliant.

In an attempt to stop the frenzied online spread of dissent against President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule, not only Facebook and Twitter but the entire Internet was shut down overnight, leaving some 20 million users stranded.

Hundreds of service providers offer connections in Egypt, but just four own the infrastructure - Link Egypt, Vodafone/Raya , Telecom Egypt, and Etisalat Misr.

Daniel Karrenberg, chief scientist at RIPE NCC, a European not-for-profit Internet infrastructure forum, says immature markets with few providers can achieve such shutdowns relatively easily.

"The more simple the topology is and the fewer Internet services providers there are, the easier it is for any government or the telco themselves to control access into any geographical area," he said.

"If you have a relatively diverse telecoms market and a very much meshed Internet topology then it's much more difficult to do than if you have the traditional telecoms structure of two decades ago and they control all the international connections. Obviously that creates a choke point," he said.

Despite the rapid transformation of the Web during its short history, and the unprecedented freedom of expression it has enabled, the Internet still has vulnerable points that can be exploited by governments or for commercial interests.

The closest precedent has been in China, which has more Internet users than any other country and also the strictest controls. It cut off Internet access to its Xinjiang region for almost a year after deadly ethnic unrest in 2009.

Renesys's Cowie contrasted a country such as Egypt with those that have highly dispersed international connections.

"In the United States you have every global carrier available to you, you have multiple cable landing points ...you have a country that effectively can't be taken off the Internet," he told Reuters.

===========================

How many companies own the infrastrucuture here in the U.S. ? ? ?
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:53:07 PM EDT
Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation.

It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:54:12 PM EDT
Ham Internet operators would be indispensable.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:54:20 PM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:57:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



^^^What he said.

Now, turn off DNS servers and 80% of internet user would be dead in the water.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:58:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 8:59:47 PM EDT by Subnet]

Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



^^^What he said.

Now, turn off DNS servers and 80% of internet user would be dead in the water.

I'd say more than 80%. But your main point stands.

EDIT: And root name servers are pretty geographically dispersed. Even that, is easier said than done.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:59:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:00:54 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By CCW:


How many companies own the infrastrucuture here in the U.S. ? ? ?

Between cellular, satellite, and conventional broadband, too many for a 'government kill-switch' to work....

Most of the countries that CAN 'turn it off' are in that position because they have been dictatorships forever, and the government usually OWNS all telecommunications infrastructure.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:59:59 PM EDT
Yes.
And they will.

Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:00:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



^^^What he said.

Now, turn off DNS servers and 80% of internet user would be dead in the water.

I'd say more than 80%. But your main point stands.

EDIT: And root name servers are pretty geographically dispersed. Even that, is easier said than done.


Killing dns wouldnt be easy. There's root level servers in Asia and Europe, not to mention opendns.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:00:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Yes.
And they will.

Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it.

On topics like this, I never know just how serious I should take responses.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:01:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:02:50 PM EDT by Penguin_101]
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Not to mention COs. No line out = no network.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:01:30 PM EDT
Any idea how much space a full routing table takes up?
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:03:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:05:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:07:03 PM EDT by Penguin_101]
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.

ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snips:
Any idea how much space a full routing table takes up?

Globally, it's in the neighborhood of 350,000 entries, if recent memory serves.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:07:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.


Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:07:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Yes.
And they will.

Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it.

On topics like this, I never know just how serious I should take responses.


Room 641A at 611 Folsom Street, SF in the SBC building.
They tap the fiber trunk and you need NSA clearance to enter the room.
AT&T has several other sites where they do the same thing.
Part of DARPA and TIA.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:10:20 PM EDT
A timely article wrt to the OP's question....

*snip*

Without Internet, Egyptians find new ways to get online
People around the world are offering dial-up modem numbers and other primitive tools for people in Egypt

ComputerWorld
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:13:11 PM EDT
Time to start stockpiling AOL cds.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:14:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:





Don't bother...

Obama is going to turn off the Internet!

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:15:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:16:55 PM EDT by TexasRifleman1985]
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation.

It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult.


Completely kill the internet, to those with technical skill? Impossible... I'll break out a 56K model and call in a 14.4K connection to a dial up server in Nigeria if I have to. IRC/Text is still valuable communication. The nice thing about primitive internet technology is it was designed for military use in the cold war... You know, to maintain communication in the event tactical nukes were flying around Europe... Yeah, it's pretty robust.

Not to mention, they'd never kill the internet for "official use"... Access is just the hard part... And getting around "denied access" is a hobby for a ton of geeks out there... And certain other types.


TR85.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:16:37 PM EDT

ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map.

https://www.msu.edu/~perryma3/cas492/att_backbone_large.gif


Kind of looks like the map from Jericho...
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:17:18 PM EDT
There are what 8 or 10 tier 1 carriers? Internet backbone not call of duty. Taking one out would cause issues but not bring down the net. Taking out the main DNS servers would cause major issues.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:20:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.

ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map.

https://www.msu.edu/~perryma3/cas492/att_backbone_large.gif
It's been 10+ years since I was working with data connections (fiber and POTS), but back then all you needed to do was offline two locations in Dallas and no more internet for Dallas County and all surrounding cities. Financially that would be devastating to the carriers, and not in their best interests to allow - however the question is could it be done - yes. This is why even before 9/11 you had to get through two secure areas with badges/keypads and thermal scans to get back into the equipment racks. I hated going there at 2am - not a nice area of Dallas, server fans were noisy as hell and it was freezing cold inside.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:20:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:22:11 PM EDT by Penguin_101]
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.




Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs):







And then the NOCs



Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:21:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation.

It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult.


I think you are wrong about that...

In an "I'm going to get hanged off the nearest lamp post" situation, the smart dictator would just tell his military/police types to go to the power company and cut power off to blocks that power ISP's, then go in and mop up by confiscating servers and associated farkle. If there wasn't enough time or they met resistance it would be easy enough to blow transformers. If the ISP's had generators that's easy enough to fix. If you were smart, you would coordinate the operation so that it happened in the early morning hours so that there would be little knowlege of it among internet users and their world would be black when they woke up the next morning.

No problem is unsolvable with a big enough hammer.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:21:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scrybe:
Ham Internet operators would be indispensable.


And very jammable..


(KD8JNN)
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:22:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.

ETA: Old map. There's a newer one online that features the public network map.

https://www.msu.edu/~perryma3/cas492/att_backbone_large.gif


In order to 'shut down' said central offices you would have to do so by force which means SHTF. That happens people will be just a tad bit busier than worrying about pulling cables or checking their sports score. Two things, the map you linked is a 'public map, AT&T has a lot more lines than that same goes for most telco's. While the big telco's *might* be completely shut down, no way will all regional/local telco's be taken off-line. Again, go back and look at why DARPA setup what was the grandfather to the internet we know now. Telco circuits are a LOT more redundant/diverse than you think so it's not quite as simple as 'shutting down' an "internet data center." Besides, short-wave radio and HAM guys would be impossible to squash.

The only way for a government to completely shut comms off is to set-off EMP's. Even then a lot of commercial stuff would still function due to redundancy and processes at said telcos, now Joe SixPac's HP/Dell/IBM/Apple might not be ready to go but that's another matter. Hell, look at China even they can't control access in/out of their "great firewall" 100% of the time.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:22:46 PM EDT

they turn off facebook and my kids would burn down a city...

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:24:27 PM EDT
Not sure about current submarine cable requirements. I suspect most offshore U.S. internet is handled by undersea cable now. Bandwidth seems too large for satellite backbone(s). Here are some notes from a 2009 submarine cable / internet conference:

PTC09: Submarine Cable Workshop
January 18th, 2009

Notes:

KB: Unwritten Rules: Developmetns in US Nat’l Security Regs of Undersea Cable Systems

US-centric but influential in global market. US Gov has: begun imposing security agreements on international undersea cable systems & adopted new infrastructure protection provisions; requested (Homeland security) info re equipment deployment and contract for maintenance & security, and

Most requirements have not been promulgated in regulations or public guidance/feedback, some regs seem designed to avoid public/legal scrutiny. They differ from national security pgms and complicate procedures by operators.

Team Telecom: DOJ, DOD and DHS. This team scrutinizes national security and law enforcement aspects of apps filed with the FCC. Results in security agreements, which for undersea cable DHS took the lead (esp Amer Samoa and Hawaii). DHS most conservative, most likely to require burdensome aspects on increasing number and type of systems. Also Team Telecom (DHS in lead) expanded scope of national security reviews to include infrastructure (who’s doing what on which systems, advance written notice for mods to list of contracts for maintenance and security). Reason: DHS is concerned about industry “evolving” and “globalizing”, esp wrt Chinese equipment manufacturers and service suppliers, all agencies concerned with terrorist attacks and unauthorized access.

Second big point: DHS info collection from Existing Underseas Cable: extensive operational info requested (all systems regardless of ownership, international and domestic). Requests included lots of info re NOC (Network Ops Centers), upgrades. Concerns were landing points in US for terrorists/unauthorized attacks.

Third big point (development): FCC-OSTP Reporting requirements for all undersea cable systems serving the US. Mandatory for new systems, assumption that info was actually known to operators was false. Info req’d: routing requrements, maintenance schedules, infrastructure protection, OSTP wanted direct access to info including re cable cuts and earthquake affects.

Operators struggled with trying to define and interpret rules, when flooded w info there’s classic intelligence problem, also commercially sensitive info.

Speculating in 2009: possible changes for security agreements, approved/prohibited vendor/contractor lists? FCC opposition to lengthy Team Telecom reviews, regs governing TT reviews and security agreements, less powerful DHS?


As DHS DoD and DoJ get more involved, isn't this going to put "turn it off" controls more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer?
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:25:58 PM EDT
Not with the flip of a switch.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:26:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Technically speaking, it would be incredibly difficult to do. There wouldn't be a lot of cooperation.

It's not as hard to kill it for casual users (read: most people), but to completely kill it for us in the know...it would be pretty damned difficult.


Completely kill the internet, to those with technical skill? Impossible... I'll break out a 56K model and call in a 14.4K connection to a dial up server in Nigeria if I have to. IRC/Text is still valuable communication. The nice thing about primitive internet technology is it was designed for military use in the cold war... You know, to maintain communication in the event tactical nukes were flying around Europe... Yeah, it's pretty robust.

Not to mention, they'd never kill the internet for "official use"... Access is just the hard part... And getting around "denied access" is a hobby for a ton of geeks out there... And certain other types.


TR85.


Absolutely correct, the government would require internet connectivity themselves. Many of those circuts that some have said could/would be cut pass government data as well. By cutting off the internet, the government would be impacting their command and control. Think about it, without internet/network connections to local NG bases, Emergency responders, etc how would they be able to coordinate controlling and uprising?
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:27:29 PM EDT
No, they can't
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:29:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:31:02 PM EDT by ATLDiver]
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.




Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg

http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg

http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg

And then the NOCs

http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg



***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is funny. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:30:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:33:39 PM EDT by Penguin_101]
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


In order to 'shut down' said central offices you would have to do so by force which means SHTF. That happens people will be just a tad bit busier than worrying about pulling cables or checking their sports score. Two things, the map you linked is a 'public map, AT&T has a lot more lines than that same goes for most telco's. While the big telco's *might* be completely shut down, no way will all regional/local telco's be taken off-line. Again, go back and look at why DARPA setup what was the grandfather to the internet we know now. Telco circuits are a LOT more redundant/diverse than you think so it's not quite as simple as 'shutting down' an "internet data center." Besides, short-wave radio and HAM guys would be impossible to squash.

The only way for a government to completely shut comms off is to set-off EMP's. Even then a lot of commercial stuff would still function due to redundancy and processes at said telcos, now Joe SixPac's HP/Dell/IBM/Apple might not be ready to go but that's another matter. Hell, look at China even they can't control access in/out of their "great firewall" 100% of the time.


Okay you got me. If your local CLEC stays online then you can go ahead and keep looking at Farmer Joe's Bait and Tackle, that is, if it was hosted in the network and you had the DNS servers set up and....

While it may (and probably is) true that Verizon could stay up if AT&T shut down, it wouldn't be very effective. Again, the question was academic. If every AT&T office, computer, switch, cable was shut down or cut or whatever, it would alter the internet in unimaginable ways. If Verizon joined in then the party's over.

And, as said above, HF internet is very iffy, especially if a government wanted to rule the air.

ETA: Based off the majority of users, shutting down Google would bring the internet to a halt because they don't actually understand URLs.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:31:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:34:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.




Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg

http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg

http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg

And then the NOCs

http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg



***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is funny. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


And another one in a large non-descript building on U.S. 29 in Montgomery Co., MD.
I drove by it for years until I went inside and realised there were several stories underground.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:36:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:39:18 PM EDT by Subnet]

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.




Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg

http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg

http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg

And then the NOCs

http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg

Well congrats, you (and even here, it's highly implausible) just killed Layer 1 and 2. It'll suck ass, and your easy peasy wonderfully reliable multimedia "web" experience just died, but there are plenty of other physical and data link technologies that, when coordinated amongst motivated individuals, will dutifully carry IP and reconnect you with who you need to be connected with.

The cat's out of the bag. It is literally impossible for a government to completely kill IP connectivity to the rest of the world, absent a totalitarian (and extremely violent) North Korea style approach, which is never going to happen in the US.

Hell, even right now, in Egypt, people are using IP to communicate with the rest of the world. And Egypt is much easier to shut off, from the rest of the internet.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:39:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 9:42:53 PM EDT by ATLDiver]
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


In order to 'shut down' said central offices you would have to do so by force which means SHTF. That happens people will be just a tad bit busier than worrying about pulling cables or checking their sports score. Two things, the map you linked is a 'public map, AT&T has a lot more lines than that same goes for most telco's. While the big telco's *might* be completely shut down, no way will all regional/local telco's be taken off-line. Again, go back and look at why DARPA setup what was the grandfather to the internet we know now. Telco circuits are a LOT more redundant/diverse than you think so it's not quite as simple as 'shutting down' an "internet data center." Besides, short-wave radio and HAM guys would be impossible to squash.

The only way for a government to completely shut comms off is to set-off EMP's. Even then a lot of commercial stuff would still function due to redundancy and processes at said telcos, now Joe SixPac's HP/Dell/IBM/Apple might not be ready to go but that's another matter. Hell, look at China even they can't control access in/out of their "great firewall" 100% of the time.


Okay you got me. If your local CLEC stays online then you can go ahead and keep looking at Farmer Joe's Bait and Tackle, that is, if it was hosted in the network and you had the DNS servers set up and....

While it may (and probably is) true that Verizon could stay up if AT&T shut down, it wouldn't be very effective. Again, the question was academic. If every AT&T office, computer, switch, cable was shut down or cut or whatever, it would alter the internet in unimaginable ways. If Verizon joined in then the party's over.



I didn't say there wouldn't be an impact, there obviously would be. Leave Verizon out of it, L3 and for shits and giggles Comcast and SBC. Think much more locally, in your immediate area I'll bet there's some local telcom that 'competes' with the big boys; usually it's the local telco company that operates as a Co-Op. Ok, now that Co-Op has diversified connectivity into the backbone so far you're theory is holding up but what happens if say AT&T went totally dark, (never happen btw,) would Verizon/L3/BT/Qwest/etc. You get the picture....

Now, what *I* would do is go after the DNS infrastructure to all carries which would pretty much shut down most users from effectively getting to Cnn.com, Foxnews.com of AR15.com. That's easily bypassed by people savvy in such things but it's not something the average Joe Six pack is going to know. The government can effectively *monitor* but not disrupt, even then that's not complete. That's just not how those taps and programs are designed.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:40:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors.


Of course they do, why the hell do you think telco's build those things? Usually there's a conference room with a large glass bubble where said telco execs give tours to their customers....
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:40:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Yes.

No.



Not entirely, but shut down the overseas cables, satellites, Internet data centers and the nodes and you're not doing much.

Oh, is that all?

And after they somehow manage to do that (BTW, define all "Internet data centers" and "nodes"), all we're left with is the largest network in the world, within our own borders?

Bummer.


Shut down the central offices and nothing is getting out unless you magically bypass it.




Ouch. Start losing infrastructure and not much is happening is it? This question is academic. If AT&T decided one day "Yeah, we're done, shut down everything" it wouldn't be the same or recover in just a few minutes, if ever, to its original self. Could the gov't. still operate? Sure. They (at least I really really hope) have their own network backbone and can carry on. For the rest of the effective world, when these shut down, it's over (not necessarily THESE, but the sectional COs):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/418219038_e5f18139c5.jpg

http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/mnchmo.jpg

http:// http://www.thecentraloffice.com/Missouri/stls01.jpg

And then the NOCs

http://limi.co.uk/system/images/noc.jpg



***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is funny. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


And another one in a large non-descript building on U.S. 29 in Montgomery Co., MD.
I drove by it for years until I went inside and realised there were several stories underground.


I know of 5 *key* facilities in/around Atlanta and I'm sure there's a dozen or so more.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:40:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:42:08 PM EDT
You can never shut off all of the internet. Period.

You could make it completely useless for 99.9% of consumers though..

Though there always will be some in the know with the capabilities somewhere to get on the net.....
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:42:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Yes.
And they will.

Most of it goes through a small room in California where the NSA taps it.

On topics like this, I never know just how serious I should take responses.


This is probably what the Colonel is talking about. But even this is only partially correct. There's a bigger picture and its not just California. I can't back it up with tangible evidence but I know this much at least.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:42:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors.


Of course they do, why the hell do you think telco's build those things? Usually there's a conference room with a large glass bubble where said telco execs give tours to their customers....
Two companies ago (I ain't naming names), we had two Hollywood style NOCs (lighting and all). They were AWSOME looking. They were intended to impress customers, and it worked. The real work was done in ye olde ubiquitous cube farm.

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:43:21 PM EDT
Not for me. I would just drive over to the office. We tap into enough backbones, that we would simply shift traffic to where its still up. It would take more than just ATT going down.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:44:57 PM EDT
The Internet is much bigger than ATT.

And it is privately owned. The government has no authority to interrupt it's traffic flow.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:45:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
There are several large providers that would all have to shut the light down to do this, not just AT&T.

Take a brief look at MAE East
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAE-East
There is a similar exchange network on the west coast, and many many carriers that provide long haul capacity in between.

The way it works is that if one of those outfits goes dark, traffic will be routed around them. The MAE exchanges at one point were highly centralized and could have been shut down fairly easily, but that was a long time ago. These days the exchanges are decentralized to make it more robust. On 9/11/01 when the WTC was destroyed, it put a hurt on communications in the North East, and to a lesser extent the entire east coast, things changed quickly after that.


Correct, I remember when a certain telco lost a major fibre trunk that routed through the WTC site. Most of NJ/PA telcom was down but traffic was re-routed in a few hours.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:46:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
There are several large providers that would all have to shut the light down to do this, not just AT&T.

Take a brief look at MAE East
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAE-East
There is a similar exchange network on the west coast, and many many carriers that provide long haul capacity in between.

The way it works is that if one of those outfits goes dark, traffic will be routed around them. The MAE exchanges at one point were highly centralized and could have been shut down fairly easily, but that was a long time ago. These days the exchanges are decentralized to make it more robust. On 9/11/01 when the WTC was destroyed, it put a hurt on communications in the North East, and to a lesser extent the entire east coast, things changed quickly after that.


There are plenty of private interconnects in addition to the meet points...
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 9:47:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subnet:

Originally Posted By ATLDiver:
Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
Originally Posted By ATLDiver:


***chuckle***

That photo of the NOC is monitoring. No actually monitoring/response work are done there. BTW, there's a certain 'bunker' at 811 10 Ave in NYC that would amaze you in so many ways.


I threw it in there for good measure because people like lights and pretty colors.


Of course they do, why the hell do you think telco's build those things? Usually there's a conference room with a large glass bubble where said telco execs give tours to their customers....
Two companies ago (I ain't naming names), we had two Hollywood style NOCs (lighting and all). They were AWSOME looking. They were intended to impress customers, and it worked. The real work was done in ye olde ubiquitous cube farm.



So so true....One day, we'll have to compare notes. NOC/SOC type setups are more marketing hype than anything.
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