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Posted: 5/7/2001 6:18:08 AM EDT
Cops Kill Man Mistaken for Burglar INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- Police shot and killed a man in his own apartment after a neighbor mistook him for a burglar. John Leaf, a 35-year-old stockbroker, lunged at deputies with a hunting knife after they surprised him in his bed while looking for a robber, according to the Marion County Sheriff's Department. Police said a neighbor called 911 and told deputies he had seen someone breaking into Leaf's first-floor apartment. When Deputy Ronald Shelnut and Special Deputy Andrew Jacobs arrived at the darkened apartment, they apparently startled Leaf, who grabbed the knife and lunged at Shelnut, a police spokesman said. Police ordered Leaf to drop the knife, which friends said he kept beside his bed. When he failed to comply or identify himself, Shelnut shot Leaf three times, police said. He was pronounced dead at the scene. Police said Leaf may have broken into his own apartment because he had given his keys to a friend
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 6:38:31 AM EDT
Well, I'm sure he deserved it for not complying. Afterall, we only live in our "homes" at the State's whim, we shouldn't expect to be safe.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:36:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 8:54:08 AM EDT by PeaShooter]
He cant tell his story can he? Lets look at the scenario? You, me or him. Cops story is he was in his bed "startled out of bed"? which means that the cop entered the bedroom and "startled him out of bed",, witnessed him grab the knife, and "lunged at the officer?""When he failed to comply or identify himself"?, Shelnut shot Leaf three times. I find it hard to believe that the officer had the time to access the threat,, and was able to order him to drop the weapon? if in fact the guy was lunging at him? M4.I think I might not of got through my intent of the post? My point is that I beleive the cop fu@ked up. I dont believe the story at all. I think he shot at the guy after making the mistake of going onto his apt unannounced. I would have done the same thing execpt bullets would of been flying,["I know alot of cops personally that are anti gun for this fact"I dive with buddies on the Riverside Co Dive team]the results may or may not have been the same? but I guarantee you the story would have been the same if I had got shot. I think this is BS that this is happening and we have every right to defend the Home.and If the cop gets killed in the process of trying to be Johnny Bravo? Its his own dam fault! Is this SOP? a cop can enter your house and not identify himself? This is just speculation on my part, of a newspaper story which can be contribed in various ways. not based on facts! this is my thinking on what I am led to believe by the author.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:42:08 AM EDT
Yup, "To Protect & To Serve". Our tax dollars busy at work killing innocent citizens.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:44:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PeaShooter: He cant tell his story can he? Lets look at the scenario? You, me or him. Cops story is he was in his bed "startled out of bed"? which means that the cop entered the bedroom and "startled him out of bed",, witnessed him grab the knife, and "lunged at the officer?""When he failed to comply or identify himself"?, Shelnut shot Leaf three times. I find it hard to believe that the officer had the time to access the threat,, and was able to order him to drop the weapon? if in fact the guy was lunging at him?
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Are you for real?!? The cop entered the home of someone who had DONE NOTHING WRONG! The victims only mistake was in his weapon choice.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 8:05:33 AM EDT
uhh, how many times do people break into a house and sleep in a bed just waiting for the police to come and wake them up. duh.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 8:32:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2001 8:32:49 AM EDT by Imbroglio]
He is nothing but collateral damage and it is a small price to pay for a free society. You are against law enforcement if you do not agree with the actions of the police in this incident.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 8:45:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: He is nothing but collateral damage and it is a small price to pay for a free society. You are against law enforcement if you do not agree with the actions of the police in this incident.
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Exactly, it's EVERY law abiding Americans job to lay down their lives in order for professional law enforcement to work out the wrinkles in their tactics. Hell, what's my life worth if a single cop can learn a valuable lesson from my murder? Maybe on the police practice range they could come up with a pop-up target of a guy sleeping in his p.j.'s, sheets pulled up, snoring like a baby in his own home. Until then, I say we all just shut up and act like Americans and offer ourselves as fodder for good cops just trying to get it right.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:05:14 AM EDT
Now if poor Leaf had called the police because of a burglary of his apartment the police would have given him the runaround about how they couldn't do anything. My question is how did the killer gain access to the apartment without alerting Leaf in the first place? He must have defeated the lock on the door and snuck in. Authoratative murder. [rail]Railgun....
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:16:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2001 9:16:03 AM EDT by MatthewDaugherty]
Very good question Railgun.How did the cops get in so quiet? I doubt the door was wide open. If the door was locked you would have to be in a drunken coma not to hear someone trying to get in. Why not send a cop to the front door and a cop to the back door. Cop at front door knocks and announces his/her presence.Then see if anything comes running out the back.Do cops have the training and equipment to pick locked doors? Assuming the doors were locked.This situation would have gone bad for the cops I would think at alot of AR15.com members houses if the cops did not announce themselves. NO SLACK! NO SLACK!
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:26:30 AM EDT
Can COPs pick locks? Hell yes they can, in fact there are special tools that only certified Locksmiths AND COPs can legally own. And I beleive that they get training in the correct usage of these lock pick tools. Yeah they can break in quietly just like having a key. [rail]Railgun....
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:34:04 AM EDT
If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to hide and should welcome surprise and loving home inspections by police. Everyone knows that the Bill of Rights was written for the protection of government against rebellious citizens.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 9:57:23 AM EDT
I have to wonder what exactley his friendly neighbor saw that was enough to call the police but not enough to wake up the victim? I have seen neighbors that see a guy working in his yard that they don't like call us give a perfect description say he is running around pointing a pistol at people driving by. We show up and he dosen't really like LE and the show begins. Mean while the @sshole that called it in anonymously sits at home laughing. Hunter out...
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 10:15:23 AM EDT
Leaf probably thought that the cops were bad guys impersonating cops. I wouldn't have put my knife down until I saw some real ID. Those officers are lucky, I would have shot them with my AR.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 10:54:41 AM EDT
I am going to armchair this one (which I know better but here goes) We recieve a report of a possible B&E in progress. We respond secure the perimeter of the res so Mr. Badguy can't leave. If no signs of entry are present we contact the complainant if possible to determine what they saw. You KNOCK on the door and the home owner in this case wakes up comes to the door and asks you why the hell are you bothering him. You explain your little song and dance he advises you have had 1 too many donuts and would you kindly let him get back to f@cking sleep. You log the thing out and go off to your next call. Nobody gets shot. Nobody dies. With the story that was relayed this sounds like a MAJOR screw up. Hunter out...
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 1:30:31 PM EDT
Maybe if those military wannabe moron LEO types were held accountable for their actions, murders like this would be less likely to happen. COLTSHORTY GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 6:59:14 PM EDT
You guys need to relax. You are all spouting of based on a newspaper account. Uhh...this may be a shock...but reporters lie and sensationalize stuff to make a name. What are the real facts in this case? Anyone know or is it just a crowd mentality? Seriously now, according to the newspapers and TV, you, by being on this site, probably own a weapon...maybe even an evil assault weapon...you may even, god forbid, hunt poor defenseless bunnies! As the news has branded you an extremist, the truth doesn't matter now does it. You are seen as evil people. Is it true? I don't think so. Why are you so willing to believe a reporter's crap?
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2001 11:57:09 PM EDT by jadams951]
I've heard several accounts of this incident. All of them pretty much seem to be that a nieghbor called the police because he saw a man, he didn't recognize, making forced entry into an apartment. If those are true, then think about it, you are a LEO, get to the scene find forced entry. What do we all do? Get back up and begin a search believing we might have a good burglary. Nobody is saying this is not an unfortunate incident. But in the situation as been told it sounds like the officers did nothing wrong. Alot of you here seem to think that all we do is come to work looking to violate some civil rights. For those that think that then [-!-] YOU...I don't stereotype you(although you probably think so) so don't stereotype me.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:48:21 PM EDT
What actually happened..... 1) Dispatched run to a burglary in progress. Caller states someone is breaking into the next-door apartment. Caller does not recognize the suspected burglar. 2) Caller calls again. States the burglar has kicked in the front door. 3) Deputies arrive to find screens tore off front windows. 4) Deputies enter hallway and find front door kicked in and open. 5) Deputies enter apartment encounter person with a knife. 6) Deputies (in full uniform) give verbal commands to drop the knife. Mind you the Deputies are pointing firearms at this person. 7) Suspected burglar (who did in fact tamper with windows and kick in door) continues toward deputies. 8) Suspected burglar who did not comply with verbal commands is shot. Let's see... Time from initial call to arrival - 3 minutes. That is not much time to come home from drinking, quietly enter your apartment, undress, hit the head, lie down, and get to sleep. Really difficult to hear 2 Deputies yelling "Sheriff Department anyone inside make yourself known" very loudly from the entrance to the apartment. We all know yelling doesn't carry well in apartment complexes. Really stupid to ignore 2 armed deputies who are pointing said arms at you and identifying themselves while yelling at you to drop the knife. What exactly is the problem here? If they had showed up to take the report you would have started the whole "Cops are historians" thing. When they show up and try to apprehend someone (who the caller didn't even recognize) who has just broken into an apartment by first attempting the windows, then kicking in the door, we are wrong. Entering an apartment by tearing screens and forcing windows is not a NORMAL way to enter ones own apartment. Neither is kicking the door. Ignoring loud verbal commands given by two uniformed Deputies who are pointing handguns at you is also not normal, IMHO. Neither is continuing to advance toward them. The Apartment dweller was WRONG. He damaged the apartment complexes property. He could have called maintenance to unlock his apartment. He ignored verbal commands. He could have dropped the knife and explained, showed ID, Pictures, etc. The Deputies did the RIGHT thing. The deceased is in that state due to his own actions.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:54:14 PM EDT
Where did you come by this new information? [rail]Railgun....
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 12:06:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2001 12:07:25 AM EDT by Sgt884]
This is what actually happened. I'm on the same Department. I've read the text of the run. Heard the tapes. Know the two Deputies who were inside. Know the two Deputies who were outside. I do not know anyone who would have responded to the situation differently. What surprises me is that people on the forum reacted based on a newspaper report. Don't over react unless you know the real deal. Edited because I forgot something
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 2:22:02 AM EDT
Mike T, has the right idea. You can't tell what happened by reading a single article. The journalist most likely has a very pro-LEO slant, and made the officer look as good as possible. Recently in West Columbia, an officer shot at a home owner and his 4 (I think that was her age) year-old daughter on his own front porch. The state paper made it sound like the guy deserved to be shot. They even said he had willfully disrespected the officer, because after the officer shot at him, he pushed his daughter inside the house and laid down on the floor. Ok, it's disrespectful to try to keep a shooting LEO from killing your daughter? He was held in custody overnight, because he demanded to speak to the officer's supervisor. So, you give-up the right to the freedom if you dare to ask to speak to someone in authority? I shouldn't complain too much. This LEO group has been much easier to work with since that incident. I guess that incident served as a sort of wake-up call. They might be able to get away with attempted murder, but public won't accept too many oppresive incidents like that per month.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 9:04:30 AM EDT
And that is why I know better then to armchair chit lol. But I stand by my tactics for the fairy tale news story. Hunter out...
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