I was recently pulled over by a police officer who issued me a speeding ticket. In the course of pulling me over, I handed the officer my DL, registration, & began to look for my CHL. He asked where I was headed while I was looking for my CHL. I stated I was headed for the Gun Range for an IDPA competition. He became very agitated & asked me to get out of the car, twice (I thought I would get my CHL out before getting out but did not have time to do so).

I complied as when he walked up to my vechicle he had his hand on his sidearm.

He & his partner were so scared of me that after frisking me, taking away my little pocket knife & searching my car visually through my open windows (I had rolled all four down so they could see I was alone), they called a third officer for backup.  I was given a lecture about how to respect police officers & the law.  He said that by not giving him my CHL right away I was placing my & his life in danger.  Thirty minutes later, I was "allowed" to be on my way.

In any case, I was lectured to by two officers why I did not present my CHL. I tried to explain that it was because I had forgotten that it should be presented with my DL, however, it was in a different part of my wallet & I did not wish to seem uncooperative to the officer so handed him my DL & registration first.

Handing them together would have meant taking more time to search for it & probably would have agitated him further as he had his hand on his firearm when speaking with me....making me nervous as he does not know me from Adam.

He threatened to revoke my CHL. Does a local police officer have the authority to confiscate & revoke a CHL issued by the state? He further claimed that once revoked I would not get it back. I do NOT have a criminal record & have never felt like a criminal until today.  


He instructed me to get out of the car & asked if I had any guns on me. I replied no. He asked if I had any knives on me. I said yes. I have a small pocket knife on me & reached in my pocket to get it. He placed his hand back on his firearm & told me not to get it out. He told me to turn around, place my hands on my head while he frisked me & took my knife away.

All this seems acceptable since I am married to a police officer. I have the utmost respect for officers & Law Enforcement agencies. However, I was very upset over the following comment made by this officer:

This officer further informed me that had he known there was a gun in my bag (which is where my wallet was) while I was reaching for my wallet, he would have shot me.


The firearm was in my black bag, in a black plastic, locked carrier, unloaded, with no ammunition around it. There is no possible way I could have gotten to the firearm without first unlocking the carrier it was in.  

He had no way of knowing there was a firearm in there as the case itself was not visible within the black bag.

So what do you all think?  Was this kosher?  Did I make mistakes?  Did the cop?

Should I complain?  Everyone I have spoken to thus far has been outraged as to how I was treated.  I am not "threatening" in appearance, have a doctoral degree, have no accent, am tan in color, non-white, live in TX....& am lucky to be alive over a traffic stop.

btw, I had already crossed over two county lines in this state, making me a traveler...allowing me to legally carry a firearm in my car without a CHL.

If I may ask, where in Texas did this happen?

McKinney, TX...about 45 miles from Dallas.

email me privately and we can discuss this and
not take up bandwidth.

BTW, i am a LEO, here in TX.

Pakrat

sounds like a cop who was never around firearms when he was growing up.... probably never handled a gun until the academy, and can't see why anyone but the police should have a gun outside of his home.

Sounds like a newbie anti-gun pig on a power trip.  He needed a serious ego-deflation.  The best possible recourse is to never back down, NEVER, EVER accept threats.  A proper response should have been, "Are you threatening me?  Call your supervisor NOW!"  Tell the Sgt. when he arrives the kind of behavior exhibited and inform both of them that you fully intend on making a formal complaint.
 
Never take shit from cops.  Don't back down.  You can't be arrested as long as you do not touch or throw anything at a police officer.    

Have a lawyer call his department.

When you understand that these guys are trained to shoot innocents rather than take a hit themselves, it doesn't seem so strange.

How bout this. Here in NC open carry is legal. I had a cop stop me when I was getting into my truck. She asked me to aproach her which I did with mmy hands in the air as not to pose a threat. She had her hand on her sidearm which is no problem. She asked me to turn around and place my hands on my trucks tailgate. Which I did. She then drew her sidearm put it to the back of my head. She then disarmed me. But kept the gun at my head for about 5 min. She then asked me to turn around. She asked why I had a gun. "For self-defense" She then asked if I had a permit. "permits are required for purchase or concealed carry not merly for possesion" (which is true by legal definition. She was than told by the dispatcher to let me go. She gave me my gun back and let me go. Spoke with the Cheif and he said she was in fear for her life and was proper in every way. My question if she was so scared for her life why not draw immediatly? why not point in safe direction instead of at my HEAD? Still depating what to do.


For those of you in NC it was in Cary.

Sounds like the same crap I saw and have heard FTOs and LEOs here in California say and do. Those type of LEOs need to be put in check.

Make your complaint to the mayors office (politician) first.. Things coming down hill have more momenteum than things that are kept in a dept.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
When you understand that these guys are trained to shoot innocents rather than take a hit themselves, it doesn't seem so strange.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that comment is a load of pure CRAP!

Lke they didn't shoot at women and children running from burning buildings in Waco or Ruby Ridge..uh yea..right.

RAISE UNGODLY FUCKING HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No cop ever has the right to place you in mortal fear.  

By the way, it's pretty damn easy to disarm somebody when they do something stupid like put a gun to your head.  Taking he weapon away and telling her to call her supervisor would have given the department a HUGE black eye.  Far more practical solution would have been to tell the officer to call her supervisor as soon as she returned your weapon to you.  Tell them that they better pay up on their liability insurance.

Oh, Call the Cheif again and tell him he is full of shit.  Call a lawyer and sue the department, hopefully you have enough money to do this.

I don't understand what the fuss is.
What if you never said anything in answer to his question, "where are you going?"
Telling the officer your going to the gun range
for an IDPA competition was none of his business. Why did you do it?
Did you tell the officer you were married to an
officer? Thats something I would want him to know! Maybe get me out of the ticket.
I think you handled the whole thing very badly.
I would not complain.

PS PAKRAT butt the fuck out with lets keep this private.

"This officer further informed me that had he known there was a gun in my bag (which is where my wallet was) while I was reaching for my wallet, he would have shot me."[/quote]

That's just a plain stupid thing to say. The conversation is probably on video tape from an in car camera. Most of us are using them these days. You should complain, if there is video it will confirm everything you have said.

God, it's because of experiences like yours that people debate whether or not they should or should not freely provide or volounteer information to officers when pulled over about whether or not they are carrying a firearm within the legal letter of the law.


In this case with this officer who seemed overly fearful and prone to over reacting, if you volounteered your CHL information too soon it could have ended up very badly for you.   He so much as admitted this with the little comment he made to you about how he would have shot you, I understand how cops need to be careful while on duty or while pulling a car over but this officer seemed a little too willing to accept that every move you make was going to be violent or threatening to him all because you are traveling with your guns.



It seems to me that this officer is overly paranoid, especially of gun owners.


Call the local department for that area and file a complaint, especially since he more or less threatened you about revoking your CHL and then how he further stated the "catch 22" that you would have been in or how it would have stressed the officer even more(possibly dangerously so) if you had presented your CHL at the earliest possible time.



The mental image or impression I am getting from the way you describe the officer gives me the creeps.    I generally like cops and so whenever I hear of a bad cop, a "them versus us" type of cop, or one that relates poorly to the populace I get a little concerned.



Anybody wonder if this cop went back to the station or went back home and told stories about how he almost got shot tonight by a guy carrying a gun or if he went back to mention how he *almost* shot a person with a concealed weapon?    I really hope not.

rgOOred, The cop stopped you because you were
open carry or was there another reason?

In Michigan, you have to goto school for 6 hours for you CCW permit. In class I was told whem pulled over by a cop, keep everyone in the car hand's in veiw of the cop and tell the cop right away you have a gun.
  I've been pulled over twice.  First time cop asked to see the gun.  I unloaded it and gave it too him.  He looke at it and said he had one and he liked it (It was a KEL-TEC).  Then he let me go.  Second tiem it was a female cop.  I usally call them lady cops but Michell is no lady.  She had taken my DL and reg but forgot to give them back.  Later, that day she called me and came over the house and gave me my stuff back.  I asked her out and we dated for a little white but, like most cops she was on a power trip and qutie imature.
  So there are 3 lessons here.  When pulled over make sure the cop and can see your hands 2. Tell them  right away if you  have a gun 3.  Don't date cops

Cop have never stopped me for carrying a weapon.  I was commenting on ADTECHARMS was saying about his situation.  I know all the cops in my area, am friends with most.  They tell me that if a cop treats you in an inappropriate manner you should ask for a supervisor immediately.  Calling out the super. on a complaint gets the cop in a lot of hot water, making it the perfect attitude adjustment.

I've only once had a problem with a police officer (in another county, none of my local boys).  He didn't like the AR-15 in the rack of my truck and asked if he could "inspect it to be sure it was empty.  I told him it had no magazine and that if he wanted to inspect it muzzle end first I would be happy to oblige.  He shut up, told me to go on my way and went back to his car.

Yes and no. Texas CHL holders are required by law to present their CHL and inform an officer that they are a CHL holder and are armed if they are carrying. Failing to do so is an ADMINISTRATIVE violation that can cause your CHL to be revoked or suspended. The officer fills out a report and sends it to the Department of Public Safety. Just like Driver's License suspensions, you are entitled to a hearing, and can appeal the judge's decision. This is a change in the law BTW; it was an arrestable offense to fail to present your CHL two years ago, though I do not remember ever hearing of an arrest for that offense. Even though your CHL wasn't handy, you should have immediately informed him that you had a CHL and were carrying. By not doing so, you place your CHL at risk of suspension, and this should have been covered in your licensing class.



That sounds very unprofessional and rude. Call his Department and file a complaint, if you are so inclined.



Yes. This officer needs a dose of reality and to be held accountable for his actions. He is making the rest of us look bad.



Not true. The "traveling" exception in Texas law is primarily defined by each county attorney's office, and some rather skimpy case law. The general rule for traveling is crossing at least two county lines, with  [b]an overnight stay[/b] . Unless you were planning on staying the night, your situation does not fit the narrow exemption the courts have held. Do not count on the "traveling" exception in Texas law to allow you to carry while travelling. this one usually gets settled at court, so traveling would not keep you out of jail, assuming you did not have a CHL.

you werent carrying a concealed gun on your person or in the car -- then i see NO reason to show the cop your CHL
if you were carrying then yes show him the CHL

and since you mentioned you were going to a competition then he shouldnt of gotten nervous at all
does he think you are going to a armed criminals awareness class on shooting cops? hes an IDIOT

and damn i keep hearing good things about texas, maybe this fool is from kalif

make a complaint against this sh*thead

Sure does seem that alot more "DICKS" are popping up lately.
Any thoughts as to why ??

Do not let this slide.

Don't even bother with a phone call, too easy to blow you off with no action taken.

If you have the bucks, get some legal advice, but at a minimum a complaint should go to city hall or city council by certitfied mail complaining about this officer's demanor and threat to your safety.
What a fool.  The guy is an unjustified shooting waiting to happen.  In other words, a liability to the department.  And he was stupid enough to voice what was running through his mind, too.

The good LEO's out there need to keep these kind of hot-heads in check.  I heard of at least one department that required a report to be file every time an officer's sidearm was unholstered, and any shots fired meant a hearing.

But beyond that, the brotherhood should stop when an unwaranted action like you experienced takes place.  Unfortunately, the good LEO's who will speak up and complain against one they work with are not enough in number.  

While it takes a special courage to speak against one of these cowboys when you have to work with them everyday (meaning it often has to be a major violation to get even one officer to speak out against another), the departments should be making failure to report these incidents a matter of discipline.

Reality is, however, the good LEO's may have to count on this asshole to save his butt someday.  All the more reason to get this violation in his personnel file so that
he can be replaced sooner.  At the very least, a written reprimand is in order, and retraining, too.


The NC situation sounds like another one where a poorly discliplined officer not only stomped on Constitutional rights, but also was not too safe.   If I were a fugitive felon, knowing exactly where the gun was on me would only encourage me to try to disarm her.

On the other hand, what do you want to bet that her finger was on the trigger, too?  An accidental shooting risk, especially since she seemed a little, uh, tense, wouldn't you say?

Open Carry was the ONLY reason. She told me after she gave my gun back that that was the reason. As for calling a Super she had two shiny parrelel bars on her shoulder. As for sueing I will giva any lawyer 60% of the take to sue the daylighhts out of that department. Any interested e-mail me. All I want out of the lawsuit is Her to loose her badge and a hell of a lot more training for the Cary Police Dept. I have heard of others getting the same treatment (not a severe but harrassed). As for talking to the MAyor I don't live in hthe City where it happened as he is a Staunch anti-gunner.

I think we need MANDATORY military service for all young adults.(who are able)
Like the Israelis do.
Make it a requirement to get any govt. assistance...ie. student loans, grants, etc. It would change our country for the better.
wishfull thinking huh...
[):)]

If I remember correctly, McKinney was where an officer recently fired a shot thru a closed door, killing a young mother in her own home. This is one of the reasons we have to keep  their feet to the fire, the cops are there to protect and serve, not judge and convict. If we do not take an active part in the running of the departments, it serves to enact a "Us against them" attitude. Complain loudly and politely, show them the proper respect, show them we are a part of the team to be respected. Act like the enemy and we will be.  fullclip

Technically you are both correct and incorrect.  He does not fall in the traveller status because he was already exempt as he was headed to an IDPA match.  He had no need for a CHL to carry his guns from his home to the range to shoot them.  I would have presented mine in any case but this cop is definitely on a power trip.

Aggie1

Matrix,  

  Quit your whining. In Louisiana you could have been shot for having a car.

You should have invited them to the IDPA match.
I've seem cops show up like machoman to IPSC matches and leave like lil puppy dogs with there tail between there legs.[>(]

Cops are like people in every other profession, some are good, some are knucklehrads.

Maybe Ill run into this guy one day when Im heading to Collin County Gun Range. I would like to see his face when I tell him I have a couple of machineguns laying in the back seat and a Glock strapped to my hip.

Michael

ADTECHARMS, that bitch put her gun to the back of your head?! I would raise such a Goddamn stink with that city and that department, the devil himself would fucking cringe! Hell, call the ACLU, newspapers, and anybody else who might enjoy making her life a living hell. DO NOT let it go away!

Know how you feel...I posted a similar thread in May about two cops that just about capped my ass when when they asked me to lay my gun on the dash of my car.  Most LEO's I meet/know are good guys it is the few bad ones out there that give everyone a hard time.  I had a friend who 2 days after inspection got pulled over for having a burned out tail light and was issued a $65 ticket.   It depends on how much further you want to pursue it.  I let my run in go because I really have enough to deal with.

I had a experience with the NC Highway Patrol about a month ago.  I went through a license check twice in about one hours.  When the officer asked for my DL, I gave it to him and informed him of my concealed handgun permit, and that I was carrying.  Both time the two different officers just smiled and said, "Have a nice day!" [:D]  I guess it all in the training!

  David

Actually that is a very bad idea.  I was in the military when we had the draft, we got some so-so recruits, a few good recruits, and a whole lot of really bad recruits.  The all volunteer military is much more efficient, has higher morale, and greater professionalism.  The last thing we need is mandatory military service.

Draft a la Vietnam anybody?

This officer needs "talking to" at the very least. Contact the chief of police and pursue this.

For anyone found in a similar situation immediately request a shift sergeant(supervisor) on scene. The request alone makes them go by the book.

For what it's worth you need to know the law if you're going to be carrying a concealed weapon.
(I thought you got tested on this part, but apparently not! My instructor kept drilling this part into our heads all day long!)

IF YOU ARE ASKED FOR YOUR IDENTIFICATION BY AN LEO, [b]AND[/b] YOU ARE CARRYING A WEAPON AT THAT TIME, YOU [b]MUST[/b] ANNOUNCE THAT YOU ARE CARRYING AND PRODUCE THE CHL (License) AT THAT TIME.

I simply keep my Drivers License and CHL at the same place in my wallet. Why try to hide it in another part of your wallet?????

Get the g.d. thing out as quickly as possible.
If the LEO has run your car's plates, which you know he has if he's stopping you, the DPS computer automatically indicates that you are a CHL license holder!

Speak up, Boy, open your mouth and let the Man know you're armed and that you have a CHL (which he already likely knows) and don't fiddle with your purse until the Man tells you to fiddle with your purse!

The 'traveling' defense and the 'going to a show, etc.' defense are precisely that - defenses that must be ruled on in a courtroom!

Which means that if you are charged with illegal carrying of a weapon, you have a defense that it available to you to defeat the charges in a court of law.

Problem is you've already lost custody of the weapon (it's in a barrel in the damp, humid evidence room), you've been in jail and posted bond, you've hired an attorney to present your defense to a jury, and you're off work for the six or seven times that they tell you to show up for trial and THEN NEVER CALL YOUR CASE TO TRIAL!

Pretty costly sh|t, don't you think?

Eric The(JustKeepTheCHLWithYourDriversLicense.)Hun[>]:)]

Yes.  My CHL was in my wallet...but not behind my DL as usual...so I proceeded to look for it in my wallet.  I just didn't have it in my hand by the time he asked me where I was going.  As for telling him where I was headed, I don't lie to cops & have no need to do so.  I am a legitimate gun owner headed to a legitimate sporting event.  I will not be intimidated into lying about a sport & right I believe in.

Yes.  I should have told him right away that I had a CHL but considering he had his hand on his firearm, I was not to keen about telling him I had guns in my car without having my CHL ready to show him.  I'll know better for next time.

I think I was just freaked about seeing a cop come up on me with his hand already on his gun.  I've been stopped before & ticketed before without any incident.  Why would a cop do that?  This was in broad daylight at 950am on a Saturday...on a busy street with numerous cars going by.

I think we both made mistakes that day, but I have my CHL & DL both in the same part of my wallet now.

I'm still upset at him threatening to kill/shoot me.  He seemed pretty young...maybe mid 20s & had a "civilian" rider with him...I don't think it was a cop because he was not in uniform.  I'm guessing that he was showing off for this civilian rider about how tough he really was...but that is just a guess.

Funny thing is the insurance paper I handed him showed it had expired.  He let me off that without a second glance as he took my word for it that I was insured...which I am.  The new record was in my wallet.

As for looking ahead in the future as someone stated earlier...my DL & CHL are now best friends...never to be parted!

As for threatening situations, I don't conceal carry...I carry in my car.  I work at a medical bldg. all day & we are not permitted to carry firearms into the bldg...but criminals are.

Lots to be learned indeed.  

COMPLAIN!!!!  COMPLAIN!!!!!  COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!.

"I demand satisfaction".

He was probably so afraid because he figured if you were good enough to compete in IDPA then you could easily take out him and his stupid lackey partner before they could do diddly s#it. I went to a range with three officers when I was 16 and out shot them all day with their guns. There are some cops who actually put their time into excelling at their craft and others just collect a paycheck. He probably hadn't fired his gun since the last quals.

If the chief doesn't give you satisfaction call the news. An officer threatening to kill an unarmed civilian. You were unarmed when he talked about shooting you. The press seems to be able to blow things out of proportion so well, that you should use them. A news arcticle will really get the mayor involved.

Dont let him get away with this because next time he might actually kill someone.

I also have a question. If the gun was locked up and not loaded do you even need a permit. I don't know the TX laws but I would think that this would be safe carry and not even require a permit.

Eric:

I did announce I was carrying...just not as quickly as the cop would have liked.  I'll know better for next time.

My wife says I ought to complain...but I'll think about it for awhile longer after I have calmed down.


If the DPS computer already told him I was a CHL carrier then perhaps that is why he was coming up on me ready to draw....us no-criminal record guys can snap at any time you know.  We go years without any criminal activity & then poof, during a routine stop we come unglued.

I wasn't hiding my CHL...it was in my wallet, just not where it should have been.

My wife says to nail his arse to the wall...as do all my other cop friends.  

Thanks for your opinion.

I guess you're not familiar with the term "indentured servitude".  Wasn't that outlawed years ago? [;D]

USPC40

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You said  "you were going to a  Gun Range" Well duh... It set off an alarm... GUNS!! This guy is rummaging around in a bag!! Not very smart to be rummaging for something in a bag after you told him you were going to a gun range..




They are in no hurry. SInce you didn't have the license in hand, ask him what to do from there. All the time keeping your hands visible making no sudden moves and definitely not rummaging through a bag [rolleyes]




Bad move.. you should of waited for the officer to ask you where it was. If he had wanted to see it he would tell you. For all he knew your pistol could of been there.



She shoulda taught ya how to handle traffic stops better [thinking]
 


Could he.. he very well could have. Stating this after the fact was a very un-professional, however his heart rate was probably racing as much if not more so than yours was. Like you said, he didn't know you from Adam... You had told him you were going to a gun range while rummaging through a bag looking for your license... Put yourself in his shoes..



Not having your Drivers license and CHL together while traveling with weapons in the passenger compartment was the first mistake, searching for something without the officers permission after telling him you're going to a gun range was another. Digging for the knife in your pocket without the officer asking you to show it to him was another mistake. If it were me, I would let it drop and chalk it up as experience.

Rick

Edited because I didn't see a page two and that you had adressed some of these issues already. The times I've been stopped I've seen the officer's hand on his weapon. Doesn't make me nervous cause I'm not doing anything wrong.

He stated he was searching for his CHL at the time he made that statement. Rumaging through a bag that had his wallet in it and a weapon in it but unloaded and locked up. How did the cop know he was not looking for the gun or that said gun was locked and unloaded?? He stated he had a CHL but hadn't produced a license yet..  For all he knew he could of been going for his gun. I don't think the cop was an idiot...

[rolleyes]

Rick