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Posted: 5/18/2002 2:27:22 PM EDT
[url]http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3233024.htm[/url] This is why women should not be cops.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:32:53 PM EDT
When will women realize they should stick to what they do best. Leave the man jobs for the men.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:33:41 PM EDT
I wonder if the guy had a weapon. If not isn't that what cops are issued pepper spray for ?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:34:29 PM EDT
Male cops kill unarmed people too.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:34:40 PM EDT
It does seem a little peculiar but the news story doesn't have a lot of info.....she did order him to stop and he didn't....she may have been a small woman and he may have been a large guy...who knows....avoid criticism until we know the whole story.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:36:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:39:32 PM EDT
Or at least not women named "Kreshawn".[@:D] BTW, does anyone proclaim that "this is why men should not be cops" when a rookie male cop leaves his gun on the kitchen table for his 4-year-old son to shoot him in the back with???
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:42:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Greenhorn: Male cops kill unarmed people too.
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Most male cops would be able to do something in between yelling at him and shooting him. Like slamming him to the ground and cuffing him for example. If the guy was armed, then fine, shoot him. If he was unarmed, then this stands as a good example of why women shouldn't be cops. For those of you who are going to say when the cop says "stop" do it, what if it was a retard or someone not capable of following directions? (notice i'm not saying that this was the case here, just "what if"). Sounds like the trooper was a newbie who got scared and killed the guy. She should face charges.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:48:56 PM EDT
FHP spokesman Ken Howes said that, according to witnesses, the passenger walked toward the trooper ``in a threatening manner.'' ''She pulled her weapon out and ordered him to stop,'' Howes said. Howes said the man did not stop and kept coming at the trooper. ''At that point she feared for her life,'' Howes said, and the officer shot the man several times in the chest.
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Can someone please tell me how one "walks in a threatening manner"? Nothing like "less than lethal" force options... Man, how I hate these people. I would not spit in their mouth if they were dying of thirst. [IMG]http://216.40.201.38/ups/kiss_my_ass/mad.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:49:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: Most male cops would be able to do something in between yelling at him and shooting him. Like slamming him to the ground and cuffing him for example.
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HA!!! What a joke!! How many MALE cops tried to throw Rodney King to the ground and cuff him?? Anyone can tell you, you'd be very hard pressed to subdue a man your own size (let alone twice your size) all by yourself if he was REALLY determined NOT to be cuffed! I'd really like to see YOU try to throw ME to the ground and cuff me all by your little lonesome toughguy! You're full of hot air!!
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:52:18 PM EDT
How can you say that she should face charges when you don't even know the whole story? Would you like to be charged with something without any evidence? She may have been in the wrong....but we don't know that at this time. Why are some people so quick to assume that cops are always wrong? Again, she may have been wrong but lets wait and see.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 2:57:43 PM EDT
FHP spokesman Ken Howes said that, according to witnesses, the passenger walked toward the trooper ``in a threatening manner.'' ''She pulled her weapon out and ordered him to stop,'' Howes said. Howes said the man did not stop and kept coming at the trooper. ''At that point she feared for her life,'' Howes said, and the officer shot the man several times in the chest.
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Ummm, if someone were walking towards you in a threatening manner, disobeying your order to stop, would you: 1) Use pepper spray. 2) Use your gun. 3) Use the weapon that you thought was necessary to protect your life and end the fight. Don't secondguess people because they're women. Replace "you" with "your wife" or "your daughter" in the above quiz.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:00:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: Most male cops would be able to do something in between yelling at him and shooting him. Like slamming him to the ground and cuffing him for example.
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HA!!! What a joke!! How many MALE cops tried to throw Rodney King to the ground and cuff him?? Anyone can tell you, you'd be very hard pressed to subdue a man your own size (let alone twice your size) all by yourself if he was REALLY determined NOT to be cuffed! I'd really like to see YOU try to throw ME to the ground and cuff me all by your little lonesome toughguy! You're full of hot air!!
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Have you ever watched "COPS" on television? Single guys run people down all the time. Ok, so those cases aren't the same as taking down someone who is facing you and ready to fight. It just seems to me that female cops would be more likely to resort to lethal force than male cops. Are you saying that men and women are equally capable when it comes to hand to hand combat? I'm ignorant of what the "rules of engagement" are for police, and this article is pretty thin on the details of the situation, but it says she shot the guy because she was in fear for her life. I'm arguing that a man, men generally being more capable in the realm of hand to hand combat, might have tried something non-lethal first. As for trying to take you down I probably couldn't. What's you're point? That if we ever get in a fist fight I should just shoot you instead because I'm sure to lose?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:04:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 3:05:16 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By ColtRifle: How can you say that she should face charges when you don't even know the whole story? Would you like to be charged with something without any evidence? She may have been in the wrong....but we don't know that at this time. Why are some people so quick to assume that cops are always wrong? Again, she may have been wrong but lets wait and see.
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You're right, saying she should face charges without knowing the entire situation is wrong.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:07:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
FHP spokesman Ken Howes said that, according to witnesses, the passenger walked toward the trooper ``in a threatening manner.'' ''She pulled her weapon out and ordered him to stop,'' Howes said. Howes said the man did not stop and kept coming at the trooper. ''At that point she feared for her life,'' Howes said, and the officer shot the man several times in the chest.
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Ummm, if someone were walking towards you in a threatening manner, disobeying your order to stop, would you: 1) Use pepper spray. 2) Use your gun. 3) Use the weapon that you thought was necessary to protect your life and end the fight. Don't secondguess people because they're women. Replace "you" with "your wife" or "your daughter" in the above quiz.
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If I had a wife or a daughter she wouldn't be out on the side of the road trying to arrest coked up lunatics.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:12:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl:
FHP spokesman Ken Howes said that, according to witnesses, the passenger walked toward the trooper ``in a threatening manner.'' ''She pulled her weapon out and ordered him to stop,'' Howes said. Howes said the man did not stop and kept coming at the trooper. ''At that point she feared for her life,'' Howes said, and the officer shot the man several times in the chest.
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Ummm, if someone were walking towards you in a threatening manner, disobeying your order to stop, would you: 1) Use pepper spray. 2) Use your gun. 3) Use the weapon that you thought was necessary to protect your life and end the fight. Don't secondguess people because they're women. Replace "you" with "your wife" or "your daughter" in the above quiz.
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I am not. Let's review the above again.
the officer shot the man several times in the chest.
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Why was it necessary to shoot "several times"? Making sure the "prep" couldn't testify about his real intentions later perhaps? Well, happiness is a wrongful death legal action, sure to follow as day follows night... [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:15:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:19:58 PM EDT
LOL. Let me get this straight. Most, if not all people on this site, including myself, condemn the media for telling half truths, lies and outright twisting stories around. And of coarse this is what they(the media)do best. Now we have people condemning her actions because of what the media is printing, after all it must be the truth! I don't see the whole story here. Did she use her nightstick or mace with no effect. Was she 5'1" tall 110 pounds and the motorist 6'4" tall and 300 pounds? If these two had to go toe to toe over her gun, guess who would win. Not for nothing, given the above scenario, I would do the same in a heart beat.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:25:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By palmer: I don't see the whole story here. Did she use her nightstick or mace with no effect. Was she 5'1" tall 110 pounds and the motorist 6'4" tall and 300 pounds? If these two had to go toe to toe over her gun, guess who would win. Not for nothing, given the above scenario, I would do the same in a heart beat.
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If she was 5'1'', 110 lbs she shouldn't have been out on the side of the road pulling people over.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:27:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By palmer: LOL. Let me get this straight. Most, if not all people on this site, including myself, condemn the media for telling half truths, lies and outright twisting stories around. And of coarse this is what they(the media)do best. Now we have people condemning her actions because of what the media is printing, after all it must be the truth! I don't see the whole story here. Did she use her nightstick or mace with no effect. Was she 5'1" tall 110 pounds and the motorist 6'4" tall and 300 pounds? If these two had to go toe to toe over her gun, guess who would win. Not for nothing, given the above scenario, I would do the same in a heart beat.
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Damn right!
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:34:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wolfpack: ALCLenin, Maybe anyone stupid enough to keep walking towards a cop, man or woman, when they tell you to stop and doesn't should be shot. Would you EVER even move, even an inch, if a LEO had his weapon pointed at you. I am not a big LEO supporter but rules are rules and one of the common sense rules are don't move if told not to move, if you think you were being mistreated, go to the PD after and complain.
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I wouldn't move at all, but no I don't think anyone who lacks that bit of sense should be shot. Smashed on the side of the knee with a ASP, sure, but not shot. I guess you could turn this around, say the cop was an average 200 lb guy, fit, trained in forcing people into submission. He stops a car and out steps a 7' tall 500 lb dude with a body looking like it came out of a comic book (i.e. making weighlifting era schwartzeneger look like a wimp). The giant starts walking toward the cop while tearing his t-shirt off in a menacing manner, and won't stop when told to. The male cop shoots because he's afraid a night stick wouldn't do much. Looked at this situation with that analogy in mind, it seems like maybe she was justified in shooting the guy. Seems like a woman cop might be in such a situation more often than a male cop though.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:36:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 3:38:31 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:44:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: I think you guys are all too quick to jump on the gun to bash cops. If I was pointing a weapon and a dude 6 feet tall walking towards me in a menacing manner did not stop after I ordered him to, and was in fear of my life I would be forced to shoot him. Each profession has assholes in it, some just stick out more than others. Most of the cops out there are good people its just the bad ones that you remember. Before you jump to conclusions you should analyze the situation and the facts. Since you were not there you are in no position to make assumptions. Use logic not emotion. You guys are acting like anti's always condeming the other side.
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I had posted hoping to argue that women shouldn't be cops, or at least shouldn't be cops out pulling people over where they're likely to see such situations. I got pulled into cop bashing with the "she should be charged" bit, sorry. She probably couldn't have stopped a big man with pepper spray or a night stick and so maybe she was justified in shooting the guy. It's hard to say without more details.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:47:26 PM EDT
But what would happen if someone broke into your house and started walking toward you in a threatening manner and you shot him dead? No visible weapon. Think you might be arrested?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:49:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 4:20:30 PM EDT by AlClenin]
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: But what would happen if someone broke into your house and started walking toward you in a threatening manner and you shot him dead? No visible weapon. Think you might be arrested?
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No, I'd be put on administrative, paid leave, while my buddys "investigated the matter" and declared "good shoot". (now that's cop bashing) I also think that shooting someone in that situation would be perfectly fine. The fact that he broke into my house is enough reason to suspect he is up to no good, and I would have had no part in brining the situation about.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:50:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:51:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2002 3:52:27 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 3:56:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:13:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Why should a woman not be allowed to be police officer? What kind of retarded form of thought is that? This is one of the reasons the human race is so fucking pathetic. If they go through the same course as a male officer and are held to the same standards I see no reason why they should be treated any differently.
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Correct, if she can meet the same standards as the male officers then she shouldn't be barred simply for being a she. There's that darn lack of details thing again. Was she a 250 lb butch female? Did she look like this: [img]http://www.sfaas.com/photos/hammerphoto/novfreehammer_02.jpg[/img] if so, fine, she's probably more than capable of being a fine officer. I suspect, however, that feminism and political correctness have resulted in a lowering of the standards to allow more women into the job. Lower standards mean that the person out there making traffic stops is more likely to be "afraid for his/her life" when some goon is walking in a threatening manner and refusing to stop. This results in more people being killed.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:49:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: [url]http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3233024.htm[/url] This is why women should not be cops.
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Your attitude about the whole woman shouldn't be cops thing is retarded and neanderthal.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:50:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: [url]http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3233024.htm[/url] This is why women should not be cops.
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Your attitude about the whole woman shouldn't be cops thing is retarded and neanderthal.
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Why?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:51:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: When will women realize they should stick to what they do best. Leave the man jobs for the men.
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Another stupid and idiotic attitude.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:53:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: [url]http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3233024.htm[/url] This is why women should not be cops.
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Your attitude about the whole woman shouldn't be cops thing is retarded and neanderthal.
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Why?
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You just make a blanket statement that says all woman should not be cops at all.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:53:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By AlClenin:
Originally Posted By jadams951:
Originally Posted By AlClenin: [url]http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3233024.htm[/url] This is why women should not be cops.
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Your attitude about the whole woman shouldn't be cops thing is retarded and neanderthal.
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Why?
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You just make a blanket statement that says all woman should not be cops at all.
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Read further.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 4:58:48 PM EDT
We weren't there, we don't know what happened, or how scary it is on the street and besides, we're not cops, so we have no room to judge the immediate use of lethal force. Police officers are far better trained than civilians-if the shooting was not justified, it would not have taken place. We should just shut the hell up, and let them go about their business. Juggernaut
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:00:04 PM EDT
While I am usually at the front of LE defense, you CANNOT shoot someone under thse conditions. This guy was probably not coming over for tea. I'm positive he was going to begin screaming at her, perhaps shoving, pushing or fighting. But ONLY when they insitigate a physical confrontation should you reply in kind. And even if he did start fighting, I DO NOT believe that is grounds for deadly force. There are other means to address an unarmed subject. How do I know he was unarmed? If they would have found ANYTHING, including a simple pocket knife, it would have been reported as "subject was armed with..." whether he employed it or not. This female officer is NO BETTER than the cop killers we despise.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:01:59 PM EDT
Escalation Of Force as follows : 1. Verbal commands 2. Chemical Agents 3. Physical Force 4. Baton 5. Firearm If you can't handle the job don't cash the check.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:04:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:04:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColtM4: Escalation Of Force as follows : 1. Verbal commands 2. Chemical Agents 3. Physical Force 4. Baton 5. Firearm If you can't handle the job don't cash the check.
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But maybe it was a really scary walk- you can skip the boring steps, even if they're regulation, if they walk really scary, right? You have no idea how scary that walk may have been-you should just be quiet about it. Juggernaut
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:10:28 PM EDT
Without information we can not know what happened. There is a escalation of force, but it is not step 1 to step 2 and so on. You may jump to any step if you feel warranted. We do not know what he was doing, we have had too many 'male' troopers killed in NJ on traffic stops. That is the single most dangerous task a LEO does, exccept walk a tier. Also there are so many quick to jump at women as LEOs, well guys my best friend, who happens to be a woman is in demand for several federal and state task forces, because she is capable of doing the job. I am a beat up old man, but the rookies come get me for the bad stuff, because I an capable of doing the job. Bt I work with several 6' + ex jocks that run when a code goes off...the opposite direction. Also how liberal is the newspaper? miami is a big time Democrat hang out, so will we get the whole story from them?
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:13:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wolfpack: Uh SteyrAUG, she had a gun pointed and told him to stop supposedly, are cops supposed to get into wrestling competitions with people like this. You have seen the video of the 3 guys that wrestle that one cop down the hill and end up shooting him with his own gun haven't you? If a cop says stop, then stop. If he was being "Unfair" in requesting you to stop then take it up later at the PD with his superior.
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Actually she should NOT even have had him at gunpoint. I believe this guy was a class A idiot, and sensible people would have stopped. But there is a reasonable assumption that you cannot be shot for approaching a officer unarmed. If she'd have pepper sprayed him or lit his ass up with a taser, or even cracked him with an ASP that would ALL be acceptable. I am usually on the side of LEOs, but I think this one is too much. This is NOT so much different from FBI snipers shooting Weaver wife. Both were unarmed and had not qualified as valid targets under "acceptable" rules of engagement.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:21:16 PM EDT
I'm reading blackhawk down right now. Funny that US soldiers weren't allowed to shoot unless they were fired at first or someone was pointing a gun at them. US citizens don't get so much respect from our occupying forces.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:23:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlClenin: I'm reading blackhawk down right now. Funny that US soldiers weren't allowed to shoot unless they were fired at first or someone was pointing a gun at them. US citizens don't get so much respect from our occupying forces.
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Dammit, the Somalians don't walk as scary as an unarmed Joe-who-knows-who does here. Get your priorities in line, man! Juggernaut
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:29:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Juggernaut:
Originally Posted By ColtM4: Escalation Of Force as follows : 1. Verbal commands 2. Chemical Agents 3. Physical Force 4. Baton 5. Firearm If you can't handle the job don't cash the check.
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But maybe it was a really scary walk- you can skip the boring steps, even if they're regulation, if they walk really scary, right? You have no idea how scary that walk may have been-you should just be quiet about it. Juggernaut
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LOL! If ya walk scary, ya get shot. I better start workin' it more and get less scary!
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:37:14 PM EDT
I did a search for the troopers name on google hoping to find a picture. No such luck. I did find this link though: [url]http://www.flanews.com/archives2001/1005law.htm[/url] While talking about hate crimes and anti-discrimination laws her is what trooper Kreshawn Walker-Vergenz had to say about it:
"You don't want to feel like you're disrespecting them, their feelings are just as important," she said. "We want them to feel safe in our country."
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She's making people feel much safer isn't she.
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:47:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:53:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SuperChicken: Ok, my best guess here is that the guy was to close for her to holster her pistol and pull out the pepper spray in enough time to stop him. however, multiple shots in the chest wasnt necessary. if she really was in danger and didnt have enough time to get out her pepperspray/nightstick, why not just shot him in the foot or try for some other non lethal shot? if a woman can pass the required tests and such, give her a badge and a gun.
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I don't think anyone should "shoot to wound".
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:54:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 5:59:53 PM EDT
One less idiot in the world. It is not a "male / female" issue. He was told to stop and did not. She was in fear of her life. Shoot him!!!
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 6:01:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: When will women realize they should stick to what they do best. Leave the man jobs for the men.
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She did. Your name is obviously appropiete. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/18/2002 6:03:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FirearmTom1: One less idiot in the world. It is not a "male / female" issue. He was told to stop and did not. She was in fear of her life. Shoot him!!!
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When I ride the bus at 2 AM I'm sometimes in fear for my life. Should I start shooting?
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