Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 10/2/2011 6:58:23 PM EST
We have a traditional fireplace insert with chimney. It has the knockouts for running gas to it, and the hot water/furnace are directly below so running a gas line is the easy part.

Since we have a regular chimney, I assume we can use a vented log as well as vent free? For the vented, it appears there is a small insert that keeps the damper open slightly to vent CO.

The narrowest part of the fireplace insert is 20" wide so I've been looking at the 18" log set ups.

I've read that the fireplace must stay open when using a gas log, so I'm considering ditching the doors for something more attractive like some of these screens I've seen. We have that chain mail looking stuff hanging behind the doors, so I was also considering just leaving that. Are there any downsides to this?

Is there anything else I should know? Do gas chimneys need to be cleaned or inspected? Any special precautions, maintenance (cleaning burners or anything)?

Before anyone asks, burning wood is out of the question. I have grown out of all but two allergies - cats and smoke. The smoke is hit or miss. Friday night I was next to a bonfire for a couple hours and not so much as a cough. Last time I was at a house with a wood fire (clean chimney and dry wood) I couldn't breathe and I wanted to scratch my eyes out.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:33:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By hellbound:
We have that chain mail looking stuff hanging behind the doors, so I was also considering just leaving that. Are there any downsides to this?


It'll absorb some of the radiant heat, and doesn't serve any purpose with gas logs.

Do gas chimneys need to be cleaned or inspected?


No. There is little residue produced with vented logs, and none with unvented logs.

Any special precautions, maintenance (cleaning burners or anything)?


The burner gets dusty, and may require vacuuming every year or so. A bristle paint brush helps. The pilot burner is also prone to dust - A pipe cleaner works well for cleaning it.

Personally, I really, REALLY like the unvented logs. They're very fuel-efficient, and help keep the humidity high enough to be comfortable. Naturally, a good CO detector is mandatory.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:36:42 PM EST
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:37:37 PM EST
With a vent free log, I can keep the damper completely shut and remove the door completely without worrying about any drafts?

I have a CO detector as part of ADT in the utility room in the basement, I planned on buying a standalone plug in type for a receptacle right next to the fireplace.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:40:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


You mean while not running the fireplace? I was under the impression from a few people with gas logs that the damper is only kept open a crack, is that enough to create significant negative pressure in the house?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:43:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By hellbound:
With a vent free log, I can keep the damper completely shut and remove the door completely without worrying about any drafts?

I have a CO detector as part of ADT in the utility room in the basement, I planned on buying a standalone plug in type for a receptacle right next to the fireplace.


Vent free logs put out a very small amount of CO. ADT alarms only sound over like 70ppm and that is unhealthy to many people and animals.

I would never run a vent free devise with no vent, period. Ask ADT what level of CO their detector trips at. You want one from CO Experts or google "low level CO detectors". 70 ppm will harm you and it could be seeing 69 ppm for years and never go off.

CO is serious shit.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:44:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:46:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.

You are my nomination for ARFCOM's ignorant bastard of the year.....go huff some CO?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:49:05 PM EST
Are you on a budget?


Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:51:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Are you on a budget?


http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww223/strollingbones/IMG_0474.jpg


The oldest boilers I replace had a rubber hose attached to the gas valve.......for lighting the coal! They almost had it right!
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:55:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 7:58:15 PM EST by Skibane]
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.


Well, apparently, you slept through them.

Unvented gas logs produce a totally insignificant amount of CO - which is why they're commonly sold and installed.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:58:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 7:58:46 PM EST by Layer60]
Bah. Never mind.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:00:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.


Well, apparently, you slept through them.

Unvented gas logs produce a totally insignificant amount of CO - which is why they're commonly sold and installed.


Define "insignificant" amounts of a deadly gas in ppm and get back to me. Insignificant to who? Elderly? Those with heart and lung problems? Small animals? Just middle age 35 year old males?

Slept through them? Fuck you. Three days of class and most of a day of testing. I run a Bacharach 125 Fyrite Pro and can detect any amount of CO over outdoor conditions. Ventless kits PUT OUT MEASURABLE AMOUNTS OF CO!
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:04:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 8:05:57 PM EST by Skibane]
Read the link, Bud.

The contributors to indoor air quality that were tested were oxygen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, and water vapor (humidity). The researchers took into consideration the climate in the five Department of Energy heating regions in the U.S., various types of housing construction, and varied volumes of space to be heated. After running hundreds of thousands of computer based scenarios, the results were confirmed by the American Gas Association test house which was modified for all factors.

The researchers concluded that “vent-free gas heating products performed well within nationally recognized guidelines for indoor air quality. This research proves that vent-free gas heating products meet applicable emissions requirements even when used over extended time periods, among sensitive populations, and with units whose maximum heat output exceeds the requirements of the space.”


There is a HUGE difference between a "measurable" amount and a harmful amount.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:04:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.


Well, apparently, you slept through them.

Unvented gas logs produce a totally insignificant amount of CO - which is why they're commonly sold and installed.


Copyright 2007 by the VENT-FREE GAS PRODUCTS ASSOCIATION.

hummmmmmmm, agenda? Cigarette companies did the same types of advertising.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:08:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 8:09:07 PM EST by Timco]
For the record, i own a low level detector, and would never suggest or install a vent free gas devise in my customer, friend's, or my own home......period. Cheap way to skirt doing it right. Scary, when you are educated on the subject.

Small amounts of CO can do long term harm. Refute that.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:13:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.


Well, apparently, you slept through them.

Unvented gas logs produce a totally insignificant amount of CO - which is why they're commonly sold and installed.


Copyright 2007 by the VENT-FREE GAS PRODUCTS ASSOCIATION.

hummmmmmmm, agenda? Cigarette companies did the same types of advertising.


Hmm, a "Boiler Guy" shitting on a non-boiler heating system - Imagine that!

Once again: If they're unsafe, why are they commonly sold? Why are there no published reports of problems with them?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:21:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
The ambience is nice, but without the doors it will just pull / suck warm air from your house 24/7 and replace it from any crack around a door it can get the make up air from. With a gas log kit, the damper must be clamped open, and never trust or use a "ventless" log kit. Any burning flame makes CO, period.


My nomination for ARFCOM's Most Ignorant Post Of The Week - by a long shot.


I am Rocky Mountain Gas Association licensed, and have taken several training courses on CO.


Well, apparently, you slept through them.

Unvented gas logs produce a totally insignificant amount of CO - which is why they're commonly sold and installed.


Copyright 2007 by the VENT-FREE GAS PRODUCTS ASSOCIATION.

hummmmmmmm, agenda? Cigarette companies did the same types of advertising.


Hmm, a "Boiler Guy" shitting on a non-boiler heating system - Imagine that!

Once again: If they're unsafe, why are they commonly sold? Why are there no published reports of problems with them?


Yeah, like fucking ventless fireplace kits affect my work.. fucking retarded argument.....

You have no idea what CO can and does to you in small amounts. Glad you are ok with them. I am not. You post their own industries propaganda and call that fact? Take some classes, and get informed, my friend. You must really like cool aid.......

I do not have time to dig up my text books but can assure you they produce small amounts of CO, and NO ONE on this site wants low level CO exposure. ZERO exposure is good for you. Why not avoid it?

Done. Feel ok with it? Great. Go with it and sleep tight. I personally will never install or own one.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 6:09:34 AM EST
I had a vent free gas logs installed in my house about 15 years ago. Best thing I ever did. We heat my two story 3200 sq. foot house with mostly these gas logs, only using supplemental heat (heat pump) for really cold night in the low 20's, which doesn't happen too much here in North Alabam.

In that 15 years experience, I've had to clean the gas orifice twice and have a gas tech come out once to investigate a "gas smell" that my wife could smell but I can't (I can't smell at all). The latter issue turned out to be one of the gas logs not placed correctly, simple to fix.

If vent free gas logs were even remotely dangerous to humans during normal operation, they wouldn't be sold in the US.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 6:29:52 AM EST
Not to mention that a ventless fireplace will suck up and deposit, usually upon your mantle and walls above the fireplace, any type of airborne particles and vapors, especially cigarette smoke, air fresheners, dust ect., appearing as a nice light brown stain that is pretty hard to scrub off.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:08:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
i do not have time to dig up my text books but can assure you they produce small amounts of CO, and NO ONE on this site wants low level CO exposure. ZERO exposure is good for you. Why not avoid it?


Granite produces measurable amounts of radiation. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to radiation is good for you, shouldn't people remove the granite counter tops and flooring in their homes?

Most public water supplies contain measurable amounts of arsenic. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to arsenic is good for you, shouldn't people avoid drinking water?

We get "low-level CO exposure" every single day of our lives. CO is a natural component of air - not to mention being produced by a wide variety of man-made devices.

The whole issue boils down to how much CO is produced by unvented heaters, and whether or not that amount of CO is significantly more hazardous than breathing outdoor air. In that context, your telling us that CO is "bad stuff" isn't particularly helpful.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:35:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
i do not have time to dig up my text books but can assure you they produce small amounts of CO, and NO ONE on this site wants low level CO exposure. ZERO exposure is good for you. Why not avoid it?


Granite produces measurable amounts of radiation. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to radiation is good for you, shouldn't people remove the granite counter tops and flooring in their homes?

Most public water supplies contain measurable amounts of arsenic. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to arsenic is good for you, shouldn't people avoid drinking water?

We get "low-level CO exposure" every single day of our lives. CO is a natural component of air - not to mention being produced by a wide variety of man-made devices.

The whole issue boils down to how much CO is produced by unvented heaters, and whether or not that amount of CO is significantly more hazardous than breathing outdoor air. In that context, your telling us that CO is "bad stuff" isn't particularly helpful.



First link says it "minimalizing the production of harmful carbon monoxide gas and moisture to a safe level that can be vented into the home."

Second link is a simple exposure chart.

Can YOU tell me what ppm your ventless equipment is putting out? Unless you can, you guess, you lose. It's just my opinion.....

This was the best site I could find on short notice...

you need FACTS....


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:46:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By Timco:
i do not have time to dig up my text books but can assure you they produce small amounts of CO, and NO ONE on this site wants low level CO exposure. ZERO exposure is good for you. Why not avoid it?


Granite produces measurable amounts of radiation. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to radiation is good for you, shouldn't people remove the granite counter tops and flooring in their homes?

Most public water supplies contain measurable amounts of arsenic. By your logic, since ZERO exposure to arsenic is good for you, shouldn't people avoid drinking water?

We get "low-level CO exposure" every single day of our lives. CO is a natural component of air - not to mention being produced by a wide variety of man-made devices.

The whole issue boils down to how much CO is produced by unvented heaters, and whether or not that amount of CO is significantly more hazardous than breathing outdoor air. In that context, your telling us that CO is "bad stuff" isn't particularly helpful.



First link says it "minimalizing the production of harmful carbon monoxide gas and moisture to a safe level that can be vented into the home."

Second link is a simple exposure chart.

Can YOU tell me what ppm your ventless equipment is putting out? Unless you can, you guess, you lose. It's just my opinion.....

This was the best site I could find on short notice...

you need FACTS....




according to that first website, ventless gas fireplaces aren't to be used for more than 4 hours/day, OSHA regulations state 50ppm averaged over an 8 hour period LINK

everything i'm reading states that ventless fireplaces are required to have CO detectors and oxygen depletion sensors that shut off the burner at 25ppm CO and 18% oxygen...

25ppm seems well under the 50ppm occupational hazard, and is under the 35ppm TWA value i've read...

I really don't understand why this debate is taking place as i planned on using a VENTED gas log anyway, my real question is with the small amount the damper must be opened to vent, would i get significant drafts or can i remove the ugly doors...
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:52:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 10:23:41 AM EST by Skibane]
Originally Posted By Timco:
Can YOU tell me what ppm your ventless equipment is putting out?


Can YOU tell me how much radiation your granite counter top is emitting?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:26:16 AM EST
You should still have the venting system inspected. Obstructions can cause poor/non-existent draft which can not only release combustion products into the home, but can also create large amounts of CO due to incomplete combustion.

I would also have the whole chimney inspected and cleaned thouroughlybprior to the installation of gas. The reason for this is that gas creates large amounts of water vapor which creates acid solutions when mixed with existing creosote. This plays havoc on masonry flues.

The best situation would be to run a liner up to the top. This is the lowest maintenance method that also produces the highest efficiency.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:29:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
You should still have the venting system inspected. Obstructions can cause poor/non-existent draft which can not only release combustion products into the home, but can also create large amounts of CO due to incomplete combustion.

I would also have the whole chimney inspected and cleaned thouroughlybprior to the installation of gas. The reason for this is that gas creates large amounts of water vapor which creates acid solutions when mixed with existing creosote. This plays havoc on masonry flues.

The best situation would be to run a liner up to the top. This is the lowest maintenance method that also produces the highest efficiency.


when we bought the house, our home inspector inspected the chimney, and I had my dad who was a chimney sweep do an inspection... the previous owners had it cleaned and never used it, so that part looks good.

my lingering question is, for the vented logs, how much is the damper opened, and will it cause significant drafts?

i've read that the fireplace doors MUST remain open while burning gas so i'd like to ditch them completely, they're ugly.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:33:32 AM EST
The damper question depends on the appliance. In a masonry fireplace, the damper may never be closed all the way, even when not in use. This prevents operation with the damper closed, and prevents gas from building up.

In a manufactured appliance, it all comes down to the manufacturers instructions, and those vary widely. I would look up the unit and try to find the installation and use giidlines from the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:39:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:52:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By hellbound:
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
You should still have the venting system inspected. Obstructions can cause poor/non-existent draft which can not only release combustion products into the home, but can also create large amounts of CO due to incomplete combustion.

I would also have the whole chimney inspected and cleaned thouroughlybprior to the installation of gas. The reason for this is that gas creates large amounts of water vapor which creates acid solutions when mixed with existing creosote. This plays havoc on masonry flues.

The best situation would be to run a liner up to the top. This is the lowest maintenance method that also produces the highest efficiency.


when we bought the house, our home inspector inspected the chimney, and I had my dad who was a chimney sweep do an inspection... the previous owners had it cleaned and never used it, so that part looks good.

my lingering question is, for the vented logs, how much is the damper opened, and will it cause significant drafts?

i've read that the fireplace doors MUST remain open while burning gas so i'd like to ditch them completely, they're ugly.


My wife and I have exactly what you describe - and had it installed in our upstairs fireplace. You are correct that the damper is fixed open, but it's not a big gap - maybe an inch or so. We do not have a door that closes or anything like that - just an exterior screen that prevents our retarded cats from climbing in there and setting themselves on fire.

Depending on which way the wind blows, we might feel a very slight draft if we get really close to the fireplace - but it's not something we ever NOTICED in any substantial way last winter or spring, unless we stuck our head right next to the fireplace.


thanks DK, we're in the same boat, our goofy GSDs will either figure out how to start the fire, or climb out the chimney after a squirrel... so we need something to "deter" them...
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:55:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 10:56:11 AM EST by DK-Prof]
Top Top