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Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:19:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ras_al_ghul:
I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that I dont think term limits are a good idea.  I used to, but thought about it some more.  1. It gets rid of the few good people we have in congress. 2. People do crazy shit when the know they cant be reelected.

I think we need an amendment where a senator can be recalled if and 2/3 or 3/4 majority of the state's legislature votes for it.  And the governor cant override it.  Knowing they can be fired may shake things up a bit.
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There are no good people in congress, they will sell you out faster than a mobster for a quick buck. They all need to go!
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:31:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.
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This. I've never understood how offering up a document, that's pretty solid in its creation, to change means government will start magically following it instead of usurping it.

...shall not be infringed. That's pretty clear cut. So why do we have the NFA and GCA on the books? Why do some states mandate a ccw permit? Why are 4473 a thing?

Assuming a CoS happens and the 2nd is untouched (I like to pretend, makes me feel young), will all anti firearms legislation go away? Can anyone who is advocating a CoS answer that for me?

A CoS is not the answer; the answer is a CoC violation.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:43:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 10:44:52 AM EST by Von_Ruff]
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Originally Posted By makintrax73:



That's like saying a 55mph limit doesn't prevent someone from driving 65mph.  If you simply ignore the rules and no one stops you it isn't the rule's fault.
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Originally Posted By makintrax73:
Originally Posted By TescoVee:
The constitution didn't prevent us from getting the largest federal government in history, so that's one glaring problem with it.  I for one support full succession of all the states.



That's like saying a 55mph limit doesn't prevent someone from driving 65mph.  If you simply ignore the rules and no one stops you it isn't the rule's fault.


A better analogy would be if you were pulled over for going 56mph while others were ignored for doing a 90mph slalom between cars because they were a protected class.

It's not the rules; it's the enforcement by people willing to act in good faith.  China - albeit most despotic governments - has a constitution, too.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:48:01 AM EST
Seeing all the stuff the left has been doing, without respecting the Constitution, only shows that having a COS is a very bad idea right now.

Go back to following laws and the Constitution first, then we figure out what is working and what needs reviewing.


Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:48:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flyer5:

May be the best time to get support.

Convention of States
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Trust me. You DO NOT want a Convention of States. It will change much more than the things you want.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:52:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flyer5:

May be the best time to get support.

Convention of States
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Not a good idea dude.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:53:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.
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Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:57:08 AM EST
The smart people already wrote the Constitution, we don't need the current day retards fucking it up.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:09:15 AM EST
Republican vote-counting watchers with proper paperwork were stopped at the door.

You think there's a chance in hell any of the good guys are going to be allowed to speak?

Or amend?

Or vote?
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:13:18 AM EST
Roll back the Constitution and its amendments to 1870.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:16:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:28:16 AM EST
Never going to happen.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:33:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 11:36:17 AM EST by kugelblitz]
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.
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Yes, there is. There needs to be a recall feature, eliminating jerrymandered districts, overturning Reynolds v Sims and Wesbury v. Sanders, it needs to be hard to pass bills into law and easier to repeal them, there need to be an amendment tying spending directly to Art 1, Sec. 8 functions only, and there need to be clear definitions of the Necessary Clause, the Commerce Clause, and the 2nd, 4th, and 10th Amendments.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:43:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By OldCarGuy:

The level of constitutional ignorance displayed by the typical American, as evidenced by most of the comments in this thread so far, is tragic.  You would think after seeing the tyranny on display in DC last year and at the present, anger and fear over what's already happening and what's coming in the immediate future would be more than enough to overcome all the conspiracy/2A-will-be-gone wet dreams.  I've been involved with COS for 7 years in a state with a legislature that used the PA and US Constitutions for toilet paper in 2019 and 2020.  A steady march to a convention for proposing amendments would be the best thing that could happen to the country right now, particularly from an educational/awareness perspective.  Fifteen have states have signed on to the COS application, including some of the strongest 2A sanctuaries:  AZ, AK, AL, AR, TX, GA, MS, LA, OK, ND, IN, TN, UT, MO, FL.  And 28 or so states have applied for a convention for a balanced budget amendment.  We need 34 states to get a convention called.
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Nobody will take the time to understand it but plenty will bash the idea.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:46:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Flyer5:


Nobody will take the time to understand it but plenty will bash the idea.
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Originally Posted By Flyer5:
Originally Posted By OldCarGuy:

The level of constitutional ignorance displayed by the typical American, as evidenced by most of the comments in this thread so far, is tragic.  You would think after seeing the tyranny on display in DC last year and at the present, anger and fear over what's already happening and what's coming in the immediate future would be more than enough to overcome all the conspiracy/2A-will-be-gone wet dreams.  I've been involved with COS for 7 years in a state with a legislature that used the PA and US Constitutions for toilet paper in 2019 and 2020.  A steady march to a convention for proposing amendments would be the best thing that could happen to the country right now, particularly from an educational/awareness perspective.  Fifteen have states have signed on to the COS application, including some of the strongest 2A sanctuaries:  AZ, AK, AL, AR, TX, GA, MS, LA, OK, ND, IN, TN, UT, MO, FL.  And 28 or so states have applied for a convention for a balanced budget amendment.  We need 34 states to get a convention called.


Nobody will take the time to understand it but plenty will bash the idea.



Naw, its just that we're not ignorant of history or of the current corrosive environment which WILL screw up any such convention.   I notice you didn't respond to my post about the last convention called for limited purposes and the way it ran away.  I'm not the only one who recognizes what happened there.    And those with raised eyebrows here are just recognizing it would happen again especially with the news media and leftist tech still firmly in control of the national dialog.   Get out of the fantasy world and recognize the real environment in which your endeavor would unfold.

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2012/10/do-you-know-constitution-unconstitutional/

Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:50:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NagOrzo15-1:



Naw, its just that we're not ignorant of history or of the current corrosive environment which WILL screw up any such convention.   I notice you didn't respond to my post about the last convention called for limited purposes and the way it ran away.  I'm not the only one who recognizes what happened there.    And those with raised eyebrows here are just recognizing it would happen again especially with the news media and leftist tech still firmly in control of the national dialog.   Get out of the fantasy world and recognize the real environment in which your endeavor would unfold.

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2012/10/do-you-know-constitution-unconstitutional/

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And with the current heading by next January there will be no constitution. There may not be a country.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:50:48 AM EST
If we get a COS who is going to be the representatives?

How will they be chosen?

Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:54:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By turfengineer:
Be careful what you wish for....

If the left can manipulate elections and control the media to the degree they do/have, why would one assume that a COS would be a good thing?
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Good point........you did leave out the asshole "principled republicans" though.

Just pointing that out.

Link Posted: 1/13/2021 11:57:43 AM EST
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Originally Posted By adktrapper:
If we get a COS who is going to be the representatives?

How will they be chosen?

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I nominate Buffalo Horned Face Paint Capitol Guy.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:00:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flyer5:

May be the best time to get support.

Convention of States
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At this point trying to save the union is like thinking the hootters girl genuinely likes you.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:00:47 PM EST
FPNI

Marxists: "We aint following your rules!"

Patriots: "Here are more rules to fix this!"


Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:01:45 PM EST
The additional amendment we need is one to fix the # of supreme court justices to its present #.
We could also have an amednement to repeal the 16th and 17th Amendment.

I don't trust our politicians to do the right thing.  They'll take away the Second & w/out the Second, there are no other rights.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:05:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ajacobs:
Getting rid of trumpism is the only thing that will save us.
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This is a new level of fail right here.

Attachment Attached File


Quoting and screen shotting in case future potential EE buyers and sellers want to know.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:06:06 PM EST
Don’t be throwing the Constitution up for debate! Problem is the tyrants trying to undermine it. You might have saved America if we played their same game and took back the schools and mass media. Probably late for that route.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:06:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 12:08:19 PM EST by PepePewPew]
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Originally Posted By brahm:
oh yeah lets let modern politicians remodel the constitution.

there wouldn't be enough data storage on the planet for the monstrosity that would be created.
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Originally Posted By brahm:
oh yeah lets let modern politicians remodel the constitution.

there wouldn't be enough data storage on the planet for the monstrosity that would be created.


Matt Bracken wrote up a pretty good summary of how that might go.




Originally Posted By mr_o:


This. I've never understood how offering up a document, that's pretty solid in its creation, to change means government will start magically following it instead of usurping it.


If you replace the Constitution with the Communist Manifesto, government will begin following it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:08:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Flyer5:



And with the current heading by next January there will be no constitution. There may not be a country.
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Well, here's the thing.

There's not a functioning government that adheres to the letter and spirit of the constitution, and that will get worse with the new admin, but the CONSTITUTION is STILL there.    And that lets us work on convincing the sheep that we need to get back to the Constitution for a more perfect republic.

I'd rather be fighting in favor of restoring rule of law under the current constitution, than a "rebel" fighting against the brand new commie version that would squirt out of a con-con and get adopted to thunderous applause due to the propaganda ministers and tech control.

So long as the existing Constitution is there but not actually formally replaced, the republic is not completely dead.   Once the old document is swept away America can never come back.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:10:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.
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The constitution isn't the problem, but if no one is going to follow it anyways then the point is moot.  You can keep waving that worthless piece of paper around all you want, but it's not changing anyone's mind.  In the minds of the left, the constitution was a mistake.  They've been foaming at the mouth to tear it up for a decade now.  In the face of reality, we need something better than "but but but... the constitution says!"
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:23:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Alnen123:
Nope.

They don't follow the constitution now.

This carries nothing to gain and everything to lose since they don't follow what we've already got.
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Exactly.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:24:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ajacobs:
Getting rid of trumpism is the only thing that will save us.
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Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:38:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By PepePewPew:


Matt Bracken wrote up a pretty good summary of how that might go.

https://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/img/book_covers/foreign_enemies_cover_llxxmm_c_scale,w_405.jpg




If you replace the Constitution with the Communist Manifesto, government will begin following it.
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You got that right.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:45:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RR_Broccoli:
This is a new level of fail right here.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164195/fail_png-1777624.JPG

Quoting and screen shotting in case future potential EE buyers and sellers want to know.
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Originally Posted By RR_Broccoli:
Originally Posted By ajacobs:
Getting rid of trumpism is the only thing that will save us.
This is a new level of fail right here.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/164195/fail_png-1777624.JPG

Quoting and screen shotting in case future potential EE buyers and sellers want to know.

I wonder if he is related to dumbass Liz Cheney?
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:49:57 PM EST
Dumbest idea ever.

Hey! Lets get a bunch of modern politicians to write a new Constitution!


What could go wrong?
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:58:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flyer5:

May be the best time to get support.

Convention of States
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Not necessary and not even the appropriate next step AND that also would require leftist hellhole states to agree (fat chance of that, they love the totalitarianism).

Follow jefferson and the northern states re:fugitive slave laws. Nullificiation, which is just a nicer way of saying, if it's not constitutional, your state doesn't enforce it, and protects its citizens from enforcement and punishment for breaking what isn't and never was a law under our form of government in the first place.

Stop playing the leftist anarchy game.

Go NOT-google up tom woods and nullification on the censorship tube and download the videos to your hard drives.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 12:59:08 PM EST
It will kill the USA quicker than anything.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:05:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN:

Just say what you really mean. Conservatism/Republicanism
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN:
Originally Posted By ajacobs:
Getting rid of trumpism is the only thing that will save us.

Just say what you really mean. Conservatism/Republicanism

They mean freedom.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:10:36 PM EST
We do not need to mess with the constitution, leave it the fuck alone.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:16:11 PM EST
This thread should be moved too MODS.

Too much freedom talk going on.

Not to be tolerated at the present time.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:27:45 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.
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This
To the commies in control, they are only following the constitution (the rules) to give it the appearance of legitimacy and legality.
They regard the constitution as an old outdated inconsequential piece of paper.

In the next 2 years they are going to convince the populace of this and tie whatever current events to it to do so.

"You are all safer because of these shortcuts."
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 1:31:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By NFA-Joe:
They don't want to limit their power.

They want more of it.
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Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:34:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
We do not need to mess with the constitution, leave it the fuck alone.
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A-fucking men.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:37:26 PM EST
An Article V Convention of the States would have the danger of becoming a "runaway convention", but any changes would have to be ratified by 38 states. NY and CA would get one vote each, just the same as Wyoming and Idaho. At least one of the COS organizations insists that a convention could be legally limited to consider only certain things. Their list is term limits, limiting the size of federal government, and a balanced budget. I regard a COS as better than secession or civil war.

There are a few other things to try first. These can be done on the state level

NULLIFICATION. A state could declare any law or regulation that violates the U.S. Constitution to be null-and-void within the borders of that state. This has been done many times throughout the history of the country, right now regarding immigration law. Another current example is Idaho Title 18 Chapter 33 that declares any firearm manufactured commercially or privately within the state and remaining within the borders of the state is not subject to federal law or federal regulation.

SANCTUARY STATES. States could declare their jurisdiction a sanctuary with respect to the Frist, Second, and Fourth amendment issues. The left has already established this as a precedent in the courts. The feds could try to use federal funds as leverage, but when the Trump administration attempted to withhold federal funds from jurisdictions that declared sanctuary regarding immigration law the courts that could not be done.

Sanctuary and Nullification legislation could contain stipulations that any federal official attempting to enforce the disputed items could be subject to arrest and trial.

The states should now become the political battleground, and it is much easier for citizens to leverage their state officials than the feds. Emai your state's legislators, governor, and attorney general. The rule of thumb is that each contact represents the opinion of more than a hundred people.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:48:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 2:49:20 PM EST by NagOrzo15-1]
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Originally Posted By generalist:
An Article V Convention of the States would have the danger of becoming a "runaway convention", but any changes would have to be ratified by 38 states. NY and CA would get one vote each, just the same as Wyoming and Idaho. At least one of the COS organizations insists that a convention could be legally limited to consider only certain things. Their list is term limits, limiting the size of federal government, and a balanced budget. I regard a COS as better than secession or civil war.

.....
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That is absolute BULLSHIT.

Read my post page 1 about what happened the last time they had a convention.   There is no mechanism that makes it any different, indeed the convention to amend the articles of confederation was a convention of the states, which each sent delegates.     You say 38 states would have to ratify.    I say they'll shit out a new document that says a simple majority of the popular vote has to agree, and they can use an online app designed by dominion and administered by google to do so.    They you'd be in the same position as Rhode Island was as to the constitution of 1787 ...  "but wait, the document we set about to amend says there are rules."    And the people who would have taken over your convention with the help of the media and hollywood and tech industry would say "yes, but under OUR new document that majority of the popular vote is enough..."

Hell the most specific condition for opening a convention about the articles of confed was that it would be limited.   The wording authorizing the states to send delegates to the convention stated that the delegates would meet “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation.”  

They threw it out!  They came up with a NEW mechanism for approval that disregarded the unanimity requirement.  

STOP saying that your con-con would be safe because nothing could happen without 38 states ratifying it.   The precedent is that the convention can run away and produce a new document that contains its own LESS rigorous adoption provisions and the only option for the states who don't like that is "join or die" or you know civil war.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:52:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bloviating_jerk:


At this point trying to save the union is like thinking the hootters girl genuinely likes you.
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Don't ruin it on me.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:57:04 PM EST
A convention of the states isn't going to happen, and nothing is going to save the USA at this point.

It's time to peacefully divorce.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 2:57:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bloviating_jerk:


At this point trying to save the union is like thinking the hootters girl genuinely likes you.
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Originally Posted By bloviating_jerk:


At this point trying to save the union is like thinking the hootters girl genuinely likes you.


Originally Posted By Flyer5:
Don't ruin it on me.


Now, on this one, I'm with the OP!    After all, she touched my arm while she was taking my order.   In 2019.   Before the dark times.   Before the COVID.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 3:40:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 3:52:43 PM EST by generalist]
Amicable divorce? I'm not sure that the left would allow any divorce to be amicable.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 3:49:33 PM EST
NagOrzo15-1


STOP saying? Feel free to argue with what I wrote, but DO NOT order me to stop speaking. That's no better than the lefties.

Link Posted: 1/13/2021 6:29:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By NagOrzo15-1:



That is absolute BULLSHIT.

Read my post page 1 about what happened the last time they had a convention.   There is no mechanism that makes it any different, indeed the convention to amend the articles of confederation was a convention of the states, which each sent delegates.     You say 38 states would have to ratify.    I say they'll shit out a new document that says a simple majority of the popular vote has to agree, and they can use an online app designed by dominion and administered by google to do so.    They you'd be in the same position as Rhode Island was as to the constitution of 1787 ...  "but wait, the document we set about to amend says there are rules."    And the people who would have taken over your convention with the help of the media and hollywood and tech industry would say "yes, but under OUR new document that majority of the popular vote is enough..."

Hell the most specific condition for opening a convention about the articles of confed was that it would be limited.   The wording authorizing the states to send delegates to the convention stated that the delegates would meet “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation.”  

They threw it out!  They came up with a NEW mechanism for approval that disregarded the unanimity requirement.  

STOP saying that your con-con would be safe because nothing could happen without 38 states ratifying it.   The precedent is that the convention can run away and produce a new document that contains its own LESS rigorous adoption provisions and the only option for the states who don't like that is "join or die" or you know civil war.
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Originally Posted By NagOrzo15-1:
Originally Posted By generalist:
An Article V Convention of the States would have the danger of becoming a "runaway convention", but any changes would have to be ratified by 38 states. NY and CA would get one vote each, just the same as Wyoming and Idaho. At least one of the COS organizations insists that a convention could be legally limited to consider only certain things. Their list is term limits, limiting the size of federal government, and a balanced budget. I regard a COS as better than secession or civil war.

.....



That is absolute BULLSHIT.

Read my post page 1 about what happened the last time they had a convention.   There is no mechanism that makes it any different, indeed the convention to amend the articles of confederation was a convention of the states, which each sent delegates.     You say 38 states would have to ratify.    I say they'll shit out a new document that says a simple majority of the popular vote has to agree, and they can use an online app designed by dominion and administered by google to do so.    They you'd be in the same position as Rhode Island was as to the constitution of 1787 ...  "but wait, the document we set about to amend says there are rules."    And the people who would have taken over your convention with the help of the media and hollywood and tech industry would say "yes, but under OUR new document that majority of the popular vote is enough..."

Hell the most specific condition for opening a convention about the articles of confed was that it would be limited.   The wording authorizing the states to send delegates to the convention stated that the delegates would meet “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation.”  

They threw it out!  They came up with a NEW mechanism for approval that disregarded the unanimity requirement.  

STOP saying that your con-con would be safe because nothing could happen without 38 states ratifying it.   The precedent is that the convention can run away and produce a new document that contains its own LESS rigorous adoption provisions and the only option for the states who don't like that is "join or die" or you know civil war.

Why is that bullshit?  it worked that way for the first 27 amendments.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 6:50:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By kugelblitz:


Yes, there is. There needs to be a recall feature, eliminating jerrymandered districts, overturning Reynolds v Sims and Wesbury v. Sanders, it needs to be hard to pass bills into law and easier to repeal them, there need to be an amendment tying spending directly to Art 1, Sec. 8 functions only, and there need to be clear definitions of the Necessary Clause, the Commerce Clause, and the 2nd, 4th, and 10th Amendments.
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Originally Posted By kugelblitz:
Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
There's nothing wrong with the Constitution as written. It just isn't being followed. A COS won't change that and could even backfire if CA and NY propose some changes.


Yes, there is. There needs to be a recall feature, eliminating jerrymandered districts, overturning Reynolds v Sims and Wesbury v. Sanders, it needs to be hard to pass bills into law and easier to repeal them, there need to be an amendment tying spending directly to Art 1, Sec. 8 functions only, and there need to be clear definitions of the Necessary Clause, the Commerce Clause, and the 2nd, 4th, and 10th Amendments.

Well, at least someone gets it.  The 17th Amendment is an abomination.  There are several amendments that could offset this disaster without repealing the popular vote that the 17th mandated.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 6:55:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By OldCarGuy:

Why is that bullshit?  it worked that way for the first 27 amendments.
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The doublespeak is mind numbing.

27 amendments where the text is frozen and then its circulated for ratification, is as you know quite different from calling a convention with delegates from the states to propose things.

The whole argument from the CoTS folks is that they have to have an assembly of state delegates because the congress critters won't propose the amendment that are necessary.

My point is that a convention of state delegates, the only time we ever had one, was charged with suggesting revisions to the Articles of Confederation, and walked out of the room with a brand new constitution entirely and one which disregarded *yes* VIOLATED the approval rules that governed the states that stepped into that room.   They walked in with people thinking they would propose amendments that had to be level headed enough to get the support of every single state, and they walked out saying 'naw, 9 out of 13 is enough.'  

That's a runaway convention, and it resulted in the prior document getting shit canned.    In this environment, with this media with this tech sector with this population of uninformed, a new convention could... nay WOULD wind up coughing up a brand new constitution that would say it goes into force on a pure popular vote majority in a mail in vote in which any lawful resident, whether US citizen or not, would be entitled to vote...     And then we're relying on the integrity of mail in ballots and the current election scheme to keep even THAT honest.  

Naw, no way.   The political animals across the country who are supposed to be on our side have shown a tremendous lack of spine in the face of an immense media propaganda onslaught and you think, what, that the delegates to a convention of states will be some sort of enlightened philosopher poets who would exist outside the current atmosphere?    That, I think is bullshit.
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