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Posted: 8/30/2015 10:57:11 PM EST
Are they criminals? I know, Capitalism, Free Market etc.
Would you charge 200 bucks for a hammer knowingly it was going to affect the
average joe in the long run.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:00:01 PM EST
You mean every government contractor, ever??
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:01:09 PM EST
FPNI.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:01:16 PM EST
Too funny you just posted this. I have something to show you and i was about to post it on arfcom. Hang on a minute.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:05:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??
View Quote


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:05:47 PM EST
If they are actually overbilling or providing substandard supplies then yes they are crooks.

If they are providing stupid shit that the government requested for the bid rate that the government accepted then no.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:06:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2015 11:08:40 PM EST by savage_winchester]


I found this 1983 newspaper clipping in my grandmothers Bible several years ago. I keep it on my desk in my office.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:07:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
If they are actually overbilling or providing substandard supplies then yes they are crooks.

If they are providing stupid shit that the government requested for the bid rate that the government accepted then no.
View Quote



This post, is the one that nails it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:08:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?



I have had MANY invoices kicked back from the .gov

Anything they pay has already been reviewed and agreed to and is subject to random audits on their whim
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:08:58 PM EST
It starts with the engineer specifications.

I know and they know what is being speced for a job is overkill and still somewhere someone is cranking out these exorbital requirements for basic equipment.

Not to mention the hoops and wage requirements etc that they require. Everything is grossly inefficient
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:09:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Spitcup:


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?


I am a government contractor.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:10:26 PM EST
Federal prevailing wage sets the cost of labor. I don't make the rules. They are made for me. I just bid the work, complete the contract, turn in the certified payroll, and wait to be paid. Who said I overcharge. Low bidder won. If I got the contract, it means I'm the cheapest whore in town.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:13:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?


I wouldn't do what you are suggesting. Is mark something up 50 to 70% easy.

Question we should be asking is... has the government overcharged you?
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:13:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stretch415:
It starts with the engineer specifications.

I know and they know what is being speced for a job is overkill and still somewhere someone is cranking out these exorbital requirements for basic equipment.

Not to mention the hoops and wage requirements etc that they require. Everything is grossly inefficient
View Quote


The lake of crap requirements usually start well before it finally hit's engineering. Then "yes man" engineers agree they can deliver said fantasy on time and on budget.
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:19:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By savage_winchester:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u170/savage_winchester/20150830_235947_zpsgetup4yw.jpg

I found this 1983 newspaper clipping in my grandmothers Bible several years ago. I keep it on my desk in my office.
View Quote

Awesome
Link Posted: 8/30/2015 11:35:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2015 11:37:06 PM EST by savage_winchester]
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:

Awesome
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By savage_winchester:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u170/savage_winchester/20150830_235947_zpsgetup4yw.jpg

I found this 1983 newspaper clipping in my grandmothers Bible several years ago. I keep it on my desk in my office.

Awesome


Right?


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I've been meaning to post this for years, and was going to tonight, and then saw this thread!
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 12:11:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Are they criminals? I know, Capitalism, Free Market etc.
Would you charge 200 bucks for a hammer knowingly it was going to affect the
average joe in the long run.
View Quote


You guys know that the government never paid $200 for a hammer, right? You know that was all a cold war hiding "black budget" thing...

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 12:23:11 AM EST
Have you ever tried to sell anything to the government? To say it's a pain in the ass is a galactic understatement.

State, federal, or local it doesn't matter. Years ago my dad lost a pair of buildings to the state of Massachusetts because the batch of caulk used by the erector wasnt sampled months ahead of time. They claimed the buildings weren't up to spec and gave him 72 hours to remove them or they'd be seized.

If the government agrees to the contract you're not over charging them.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 12:29:30 AM EST

You don't actually think they spend $20,000 on a hammer, $30,000 on a toilet seat, do you?
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 4:48:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
If they are actually overbilling or providing substandard supplies then yes they are crooks.

If they are providing stupid shit that the government requested for the bid rate that the government accepted then no.
View Quote

This.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 4:52:39 AM EST
Redundant thread title is redundant.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:04:07 AM EST
OP,
If they are intentionally finding ways to increase their profit beyond the percentage agreed upon during contract negotiations and then adjusted for contractor performance, and not due to government change requirements, oversights, new requirements, etc, then yes, they are crooks. It isn't the contractor's fault when the government has no idea what it wants to build, and they have people incurring expenses while the govt figures it out.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By S13gmund:


You guys know that the government never paid $200 for a hammer, right? You know that was all a cold war hiding "black budget" thing...

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Originally Posted By S13gmund:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Are they criminals? I know, Capitalism, Free Market etc.
Would you charge 200 bucks for a hammer knowingly it was going to affect the
average joe in the long run.


You guys know that the government never paid $200 for a hammer, right? You know that was all a cold war hiding "black budget" thing...


They actually did pay whatever the exorbitant price was for the hammers, but they were beryllium non-sparking hammers. When you're working around explosive vapors, you don't fuck around with a steel hammer.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:09:08 AM EST
I always like the $200 or $20,000 or whatever hammer's and toilet seats people bring up all shocked. After designing, testing, and validating a variety of MIL-STD-810 environmental requirements that might be required and then the amount of CDRL/SDRL (contract/sub-contract deliverable requirements list) documents you have to provide, there's no reason some stupid "COTS" part wouldn't wind up costing that much. The last couple subsystems we did for the Navy the CDRL/SDRL's were running around 50% of the total cost of the firm fixed price contract.

It costs A LOT to be a good steward of taxpayer money lol.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:14:15 AM EST
I knew an FBI type guy who's claim to fame was busting contractors who cheated the government(IE; taxpayer)
So at least at some level, its criminal...
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:14:50 AM EST
Filthy crooked assholes:

http://m.spokesman.com/stories/2015/may/15/spokane-valleys-monaco-enterprises-accused-overbil/
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:18:43 AM EST
It is simple, but only if you are one of the special people. You come up with a new "green energy" concept, apply for millions to build your "plant". Then donate thousands to the right candidate or office holder.

Your plant is approved for "loans" and you then donate even more, be sure to give some to the stupid party as well as the one in power. At that point you can produce fuel for just $149.00 per gallon or whatever and give your executives huge bonuses. Announce you have to close your "plant" and default on the loans.

Who needs a $200 wrench in today's political environment. That would be wasteful as it would take a ton of wrenches to reach a half billion.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:50:00 AM EST
if a $200 hammer is your biggest concern. WOW


I have some many stories.


Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:54:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 5:54:48 AM EST by jwb211]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:


I am a government contractor.
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Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??


No, i mean what i posted. Would YOU overcharge the government?


I am a government contractor.


Do you sell them hammers?
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 5:57:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:22:25 AM EST
In Government contract terms, the Government does not get what it wants, it gets what it asks for.


It isn't like somebody springs something on the government at the last minute. There's a "CLIN" (Contract Line Item Number) for everything the Gov pays for, and there's a price the Gov agreed to in advance.

If I am in business and a party to a contract is okay with paying me 10,000% markup, I am not going to turn it down.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:31:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 6:31:58 AM EST by jerrwhy01]
Do you really think that the .gov is paying 1200 dollars for a toilet seat? That money has to be laundered somehow so it's off the books, what better excuse than government incompetency.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:33:42 AM EST
The company I work for has over charged state and the federal government for our services. We've lost countless accounts because of it. I'm on the side that yes, because they overcharge they are criminals.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:37:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 6:38:16 AM EST by AEROMechanic]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
The company I work for has over charged state and the federal government for our services. We've lost countless accounts because of it. I'm on the side that yes, because they overcharge they are criminals.
View Quote

Nope!

If the .gov agrees to the price of the services being offered, it's not criminal in the least.

I know this is a bit cliche, but.....

"Don't hate the player. Hate the game that allows the player to succeed in such a manner."
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:37:16 AM EST
If you want to understand government contract costs, read the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) and the Defense FAR.

The clauses, incorporated into every contract require all kinds of bullshit, but the contractor must comply. Everything from tracking how you implement your Equal Opportunity Program, to the demonstrate you buy nothing from North Korea. All of it in response to laws enacted by Congress and regulations imposed by an alphabet soup of agencies.

I recently made a table of these provisions in a simple $100K job. One page of clauses incorporated by reference came to 197 pages of 10pt type.

If you want reform in the cost of .gov purchases, eliminate 99% of the FAR.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:39:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By broadrunarms:
If you want to understand government contract costs, read the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) and the Defense FAR.

The clauses, incorporated into every contract require all kinds of bullshit, but the contractor must comply. Everything from tracking how you implement your Equal Opportunity Program, to the demonstrate you buy nothing from North Korea. All of it in response to laws enacted by Congress and regulations imposed by an alphabet soup of agencies.

I recently made a table of these provisions in a simple $100K job. One page of clauses incorporated by reference came to 197 pages of 10pt type.

If you want reform in the cost of .gov purchases, eliminate 99% of the FAR
.
View Quote

Sounds like the .fed tax code.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:45:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AEROMechanic:

Nope!

If the .gov agrees to the price of the services being offered, it's not criminal in the least.

I know this is a bit cliche, but.....

"Don't hate the player. Hate the game that allows the player to succeed in such a manner."
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Originally Posted By AEROMechanic:
Originally Posted By TheTallest:
The company I work for has over charged state and the federal government for our services. We've lost countless accounts because of it. I'm on the side that yes, because they overcharge they are criminals.

Nope!

If the .gov agrees to the price of the services being offered, it's not criminal in the least.

I know this is a bit cliche, but.....

"Don't hate the player. Hate the game that allows the player to succeed in such a manner."


I know for a fact that the one contract they held the government customer agreed to one price and signed the contract for that one price but then my company turned around and "found" things that cost ridiculous amounts of money. Think, charging them $1m for a toothbrush type stuff. The government customer complained constantly and management of my company just laughed it off. Then one day, we show up and the gates were closed and the armed guards told us to leave.

The other state customer got a letter from the federal government stating the same thing; "GO AWAY". Management can't understand why.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:14:15 AM EST
Read the following:
Davis–Bacon Act

McNamara–O'Hara Service Contract Act

Both of these were driven by Unions and add a lot of cost.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:20:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By broadrunarms:
If you want to understand government contract costs, read the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) and the Defense FAR.

The clauses, incorporated into every contract require all kinds of bullshit, but the contractor must comply. Everything from tracking how you implement your Equal Opportunity Program, to the demonstrate you buy nothing from North Korea. All of it in response to laws enacted by Congress and regulations imposed by an alphabet soup of agencies.

I recently made a table of these provisions in a simple $100K job. One page of clauses incorporated by reference came to 197 pages of 10pt type.

If you want reform in the cost of .gov purchases, eliminate 99% of the FAR.
View Quote

The FAR and the DFAR are not the problem they just consolidate all the crap issued by congress and executive orders.
The how contracting regulation process on the federal level started after the civil war before then it wasn’t how good or cheap your product was it was who you knew.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:23:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CLICKBANGBANG:
Federal prevailing wage sets the cost of labor. I don't make the rules. They are made for me. I just bid the work, complete the contract, turn in the certified payroll, and wait to be paid. Who said I overcharge. Low bidder won. If I got the contract, it means I'm the cheapest whore in town.
View Quote


THIS.

If I'm doing work for a local university, the city, or a federal job - it means I was the low bid. In most cases that doesn't mean lowest "qualified" bid, it just means low bid.

The fact that they typically pay more than my commercial clients has alot to do with the fact that they run their jobs like shit, and pay like shit.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:28:53 AM EST
At one point in my employer's history, we were 90% direct to government (defense) sales.

We will never willingly be a direct to government supplier again. Our government is the worst customer on the planet and causes 99% of the efficiency problems it has in it's supply chain.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:36:39 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
Do you really think that the .gov is paying 1200 dollars for a toilet seat? That money has to be laundered somehow so it's off the books, what better excuse than government incompetency.
View Quote

The expensive toilet seat was the per item cost to create an injection mold and make somewhere around 50 seats for a specific aircraft lavatory, of course a toilet seat is going to be expensive if you have to include the cost of the $60k mold in the per item cost.

Kharn

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:37:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By savage_winchester:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u170/savage_winchester/20150830_235947_zpsgetup4yw.jpg

I found this 1983 newspaper clipping in my grandmothers Bible several years ago. I keep it on my desk in my office.
View Quote



Yeah, that's because the requirements they put on "WRENCH, HEXAGONAL, 5/32" were: MIL-STD certified material, storage requirements for the certifications for 20 years, the material was something someone flipped a Crucible book open and picked at random and isn't in common use, anywhere, for anything, and they won't accept a more common, higher grade material that doesn't meet the spec, the surface finish was created through some process that's unknown to anyone but the designer, requires another ream of certifications, more storage requirements, ITAR certification, the part itself is so over toleranced that it could be utilized as a gage block and the 90 degree elbow is on a radius that's impossible to do in standard equipment, causes a 90% crack rate in the shitty material specified, and if it's a DX-1 item, and you get behind, they shut your shit down and send in a government manager to make sure you make hex keys and only hex keys until the government is happy again.

$9,000 a pop? Not worth it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:38:26 AM EST
I don't blame anyone for trying to get the most money for their wares. And fuck the government.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:41:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
Do you really think that the .gov is paying 1200 dollars for a toilet seat? That money has to be laundered somehow so it's off the books, what better excuse than government incompetency.
View Quote

You are WAYYYYYY over thinking this.

the GOV is incompetent.

As a tax payer it is most peoples money.

But when it comes to spend all the money before Oct01 or get less next year. The money will be spent
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:58:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:14:21 AM EST
Most people that bitch about how much .gov contractors charge for their products or services have never done business with the government. Last year I bid on a toilet paper holder for the C-130's. Nothing fancy about it, could have bought one at Home Depot that would have worked just fine. Every stinking item in the assembly had to have documentation stating the source of origin of the material, certification that the material was in fact what was specified, DFARS flowdown reports, AS9102 Quality documents, coated with non-VOC paints, packaged in accordance with a MIL-SPEC that I can't recall. The boxes they were to be shipped in had to have been produced from a renewable resource and contain at least 30% recycled material with any markings on the package done with low-VOC inks and taped up with a MIL-SPEC tape of a very specific thickness with the adhesive, again, of low-VOC compounds. Everything had to be documented so the accompanying paper trail would be about 47 pages long and take hours to produce, any clerical error would cause a rejection of the shipment even if the parts were perfect. If you take into consideration all the BS a company has to put up with, $200 for a hammer is a bargain.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:19:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
You mean every government contractor, ever??
View Quote

Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:21:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By savage_winchester:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u170/savage_winchester/20150830_235947_zpsgetup4yw.jpg

I found this 1983 newspaper clipping in my grandmothers Bible several years ago. I keep it on my desk in my office.
View Quote



Yeah but are the allen wrenches at the hardware store milspec ????


It's your funeral pal.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:25:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By S13gmund:


You guys know that the government never paid $200 for a hammer, right? You know that was all a cold war hiding "black budget" thing...

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By S13gmund:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
Are they criminals? I know, Capitalism, Free Market etc.
Would you charge 200 bucks for a hammer knowingly it was going to affect the
average joe in the long run.


You guys know that the government never paid $200 for a hammer, right? You know that was all a cold war hiding "black budget" thing...




oh reallllllllllly. When I got out of the .mil I worked in contracting for the army for about 11 months.. Looking at the billing breakdown was disgusting.

and we have this little gem.

Pentagon pays nearly $1m to have 2-.12cent washers shipped to iraq
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:35:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TinSpinner:
Most people that bitch about how much .gov contractors charge for their products or services have never done business with the government. Last year I bid on a toilet paper holder for the C-130's. Nothing fancy about it, could have bought one at Home Depot that would have worked just fine. Every stinking item in the assembly had to have documentation stating the source of origin of the material, certification that the material was in fact what was specified, DFARS flowdown reports, AS9102 Quality documents, coated with non-VOC paints, packaged in accordance with a MIL-SPEC that I can't recall. The boxes they were to be shipped in had to have been produced from a renewable resource and contain at least 30% recycled material with any markings on the package done with low-VOC inks and taped up with a MIL-SPEC tape of a very specific thickness with the adhesive, again, of low-VOC compounds. Everything had to be documented so the accompanying paper trail would be about 47 pages long and take hours to produce, any clerical error would cause a rejection of the shipment even if the parts were perfect. If you take into consideration all the BS a company has to put up with, $200 for a hammer is a bargain.
View Quote

Quoted For Truth

You also forgot to mention that absolute abomination of an online invoicing system DFAS uses so vendors can get paid. The only other gov't information system I've found that was worse than WAWF is ATF eForms.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 8:36:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 8:49:10 AM EST by Hoppy]
At one time I sold stuff to the DOD. At the time, if the purchasing agent called, you had the item in stock and it was under $500. they weren't required to find competitive bids and they issued a Purchase Order. We sold many a $5 item for $450. This was about forty years ago, so I would imagine the dollar amount is larger now.

On the other side of the coin is the military. I once needed three screws to complete work on a radar repeater. I was told that the paperwork wasn't worth just three screws and I needed to change it to a box of screws. I bought the box of screws, used three and put the rest in the shop locker. During the next "field day" we would take those remaining screws and throw them in the trash. That trash would later be sold, by the pound, to the local surplus company for pennies.
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