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Posted: 1/2/2016 10:51:59 PM EDT
I'm looking to open up a wall from the attached garage into the main living area to make a shallow laundry closet. The ceiling joists run parallel to the wall in question, which is the back wall of the garage in the pictures. There is a beam that runs perpendicular to the wall, which is supported by metal posts. They can be seen in the center of the garage. It appears that this beam runs the full length of the house and is supporting the joists for the floor above.
I'm looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall. I opened up a bit of sheetrock and found that there is a single 2x4 top plate that runs under one joist. Being that the wall separates the garage from the main living area, I thought it might be structural, but based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing. Don't mind the mess, I'm in the middle of a reno. First pic showing the full garage. The wall in question is the ball wall with the entry door. I'm looking to open the wall to the left of the door: 
A different angle: 
Area that I want to open: 
You can't really see the joist here. That is a 2x4 nailed to the joist for attaching sheetrock: 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:30:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: ...based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing. I don't think the single top plate is any indicator of a non-load bearing wall here. In pic #4, the bearing wall to the left is also a single plate. But, I think you are correct; the dividing wall between the garage and living space appears to be a partition. If you have any doubt at all, you can shore it with two jack posts on each side of the wall until you get the new header and jack studs in place. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:41:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think the single top plate is any indicator of a non-load bearing wall here. In pic #4, the bearing wall to the left is also a single plate. But, I think you are correct; the dividing wall between the garage and living space appears to be a partition. If you have any doubt at all, you can shore it with two jack posts on each side of the wall until you get the new header and jack studs in place. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
...based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing. I don't think the single top plate is any indicator of a non-load bearing wall here. In pic #4, the bearing wall to the left is also a single plate. But, I think you are correct; the dividing wall between the garage and living space appears to be a partition. If you have any doubt at all, you can shore it with two jack posts on each side of the wall until you get the new header and jack studs in place. Thanks for the input. The wall to the left is actually a partition wall for the boiler room. I just don't want to have to put in an actual header if I don't have to. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:42:51 AM EDT
[#3]
On a side note, 13 years here and I got you're 5th post?
I'm feeling kinda special. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:47:25 AM EDT
[#4]
What is above the wall? i.e. is there an exterior wall or a load bearing wall of some sort above this wall?
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:53:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is above the wall? i.e. is there an exterior wall or a load bearing wall of some sort above this wall? The house is a raised ranch. There is a full level above. Directly above this wall is a another interior wall on the upper level. The wall goes up to the ceiling where there is another full span beam. I'm at work now but I'll see if I can dig up any pics on my phone. Everything seems like it would be a structural wall but I just don't think it is. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 12:56:18 AM EDT
[#6]
I wouldn't recommend having your washing machine, along with the water hoses, in your garage in NY.
What happens when you accidentally leave your garage door open overnight when it's -5* out in the winter? |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:05:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Here are pics of the wall directly above:
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:07:43 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't recommend having your washing machine, along with the water hoses, in your garage in NY. What happens when you accidentally leave your garage door open overnight when it's -5* out in the winter? It won't be in the garage. It will be in an insulated closet that opens into the living area. The garage side will be closed and insulated. The machines, boiler, and pipes are already in the insulted boiler room directly to the left in the pics. I'm just moving them to a separate area. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:09:50 AM EDT
[#9]
The beam you see in the upper level with the fan attached is directly above the beam that runs through the garage.
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:14:05 AM EDT
[#10]
The wall between the garage and living space is a fire wall. Should have 5/8 rock on the garage side versus 1/2" on the inside for a 2 hour fire rating.
If you alter it, you may be voiding your fire insurance. Check with an architect or the building department. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:17:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The wall between the garage and living space is a fire wall. Should have 5/8 rock on the garage side versus 1/2" on the inside for a 2 hour fire rating. If you alter it, you may be voiding your fire insurance. Check with an architect or the building department. I'm aware. It's not to current code at the moment, but that will change when I frame out the new closet. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:18:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't recommend having your washing machine, along with the water hoses, in your garage in NY. What happens when you accidentally leave your garage door open overnight when it's -5* out in the winter? 
You make it a habit of leaving your garage door open? How does that even happen. If i did that id be testing the limits of my insurance policy. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:25:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The wall between the garage and living space is a fire wall. Should have 5/8 rock on the garage side versus 1/2" on the inside for a 2 hour fire rating. If you alter it, you may be voiding your fire insurance. Check with an architect or the building department. How does that work - surely 5/8 drywall can't "hold in" a fire for 2 hours. So what does the "2 hour" rating designate? |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:48:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You make it a habit of leaving your garage door open? How does that even happen. If i did that id be testing the limits of my insurance policy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I wouldn't recommend having your washing machine, along with the water hoses, in your garage in NY. What happens when you accidentally leave your garage door open overnight when it's -5* out in the winter?
You make it a habit of leaving your garage door open? How does that even happen. If i did that id be testing the limits of my insurance policy. People still leave their keys in the cars and houses unlocked around here. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:49:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does that work - surely 5/8 drywall can't "hold in" a fire for 2 hours. So what does the "2 hour" rating designate? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The wall between the garage and living space is a fire wall. Should have 5/8 rock on the garage side versus 1/2" on the inside for a 2 hour fire rating. If you alter it, you may be voiding your fire insurance. Check with an architect or the building department. How does that work - surely 5/8 drywall can't "hold in" a fire for 2 hours. So what does the "2 hour" rating designate? Fire rated 5/8 rock has a 2 hour burn time, meaning it takes 2 hours for fire at whatever temperature they determine, to burn through. The door from the garage to living space needs to 1 3/4" solid core, self closing to meet the same fire rating. The water heater, if its gas, must be 18" up from the floor so as not to ignite gasoline fumes which tend to stay down around the floor. The thinking is your car catching on fire as the most likely occurrence. Its not intended to be fireproof, but to buy you and your family time to get out of the house. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 1:57:31 AM EDT
[#16]
PE here, you might be good with what you are thinking you want to do, but no Engineer worth his salt is going to tell you that over the Internet based on a few pics and what you say is going on in the attic. If one does, beware. Consult a professional. If I were close, I would check it out very reasonable (trade for beers, brass, etc.) for you since you're on arfcom.
Maybe a local Engineer arf member can help. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:11:11 AM EDT
[#17]
The way I'm undestanding this, there is a floor above. If so treat it like it's load bearing.
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:20:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On a side note, 13 years here and I got you're 5th post? I'm feeling kinda special. I guess I've been busy just reading; there is a lot of information here... How large an opening are you planning through the garage wall? |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:23:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PE here, you might be good with what you are thinking you want to do, but no Engineer worth his salt is going to tell you that over the Internet based on a few pics and what you say is going on in the attic. If one does, beware. Consult a professional. If I were close, I would check it out very reasonable (trade for beers, brass, etc.) for you since you're on arfcom. Maybe a local Engineer arf member can help. Right, I wouldn't expect any definitive answers over the interwebs. Just looking for some opinions. Thanks for the input. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:25:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The way I'm undestanding this, there is a floor above. If so treat it like it's load bearing. Yes, but the floor seems to be supported by the beam, not the wall. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:26:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I've been busy just reading; there is a lot of information here... How large an opening are you planning through the garage wall? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
On a side note, 13 years here and I got you're 5th post? I'm feeling kinda special. I guess I've been busy just reading; there is a lot of information here... How large an opening are you planning through the garage wall? Most of the distance between the partition wall to the left and the doorway to the right. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:30:12 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PE here, you might be good with what you are thinking you want to do, but no Engineer worth his salt is going to tell you that over the Internet based on a few pics and what you say is going on in the attic. If one does, beware. Consult a professional. If I were close, I would check it out very reasonable (trade for beers, brass, etc.) for you since you're on arfcom. Maybe a local Engineer arf member can help. Load bearing wall? Shear wall? |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:31:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the input. The wall to the left is actually a partition wall for the boiler room. I just don't want to have to put in an actual header if I don't have to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing. I don't think the single top plate is any indicator of a non-load bearing wall here. In pic #4, the bearing wall to the left is also a single plate. But, I think you are correct; the dividing wall between the garage and living space appears to be a partition. If you have any doubt at all, you can shore it with two jack posts on each side of the wall until you get the new header and jack studs in place. Thanks for the input. The wall to the left is actually a partition wall for the boiler room. I just don't want to have to put in an actual header if I don't have to. make sure that you new wall meets 2 hr fire codes |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:35:18 AM EDT
[#24]
The OP is shopping for a "yes"
He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:41:43 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The OP is shopping for a "yes" He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:45:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Just looking at the pics, the floor joists are running parallel to the wall in question, and sit on top of the beam running through the garage. If the joist is sitting directly on top of the wall Id assume it's carrying some if the load even if its not designed or intended too.
Adding a header - 4×6/4×8/screwed and glued 2x10s and 1/2" plywood- with double trimmers isnt that big a deal other than cutting into your headroom assuming you werent going to use a doorway of some kind. If you're going to use a standard door of some kind, you might as well install a header. Eta: does the beam on the garage continue into the house beyond the wall in question ? |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:57:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just looking at the pics, the floor joists are running parallel to the wall in question, and sit on top of the beam running through the garage. If the joist is sitting directly on top of the wall Id assume it's carrying some if the load even if its not designed or intended too. Adding a header - 4×6/4×8/screwed and glued 2x10s and 1/2" plywood- with double trimmers isnt that big a deal other than cutting into your headroom assuming you werent going to use a doorway of some kind. If you're going to use a standard door of some kind, you might as well install a header. Eta: does the beam on the garage continue into the house beyond the wall in question ? I'm using two bifold doors, so theres no reason why I can't use a header. Ill have to frame out the rough opening regardless. I haven't opened up all the walls on the inside, but to the best of myknowledge, the beam spans the full length of the house. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:00:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. This is true. It could be a bearing wall, a shear wall, or both. Good luck! |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:12:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The OP is shopping for a "yes" He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:26:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The OP is shopping for a "yes" He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. No one is arguing. You're absolutely correct. I started this thread because I don't know. I was looking for advice and input and I got it from a bunch of people who didn't come at me with the high and mighty bullshit. Not everyone here is a chief structural engineer. But hey, thanks for all your help. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:36:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Carpenter here, which means I know more than the SE in most cases.
Why are you trying to save $15 of lumber? In retrofit situations I install headers and shear walls per the prescriptive code unless the owner hires an architect or SE that tells me to do otherwise. You should do the same. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:49:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carpenter here, which means I know more than the SE in most cases. Why are you trying to save $15 of lumber? In retrofit situations I install headers and shear walls per the prescriptive code unless the owner hires an architect or SE that tells me to do otherwise. You should do the same. This seems to be the general consensus so I think ill be smart enough to take the advice. I suppose there's really no reason not to. I guess my main concern was that I've never actually put in a header, so I was hoping that i wouldnt be necessary. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 3:56:29 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one is arguing. You're absolutely correct. I started this thread because I don't know. I was looking for advice and input and I got it from a bunch of people who didn't come at me with the high and mighty bullshit. Not everyone here is a chief structural engineer. But hey, thanks for all your help. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The OP is shopping for a "yes" He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. No one is arguing. You're absolutely correct. I started this thread because I don't know. I was looking for advice and input and I got it from a bunch of people who didn't come at me with the high and mighty bullshit. Not everyone here is a chief structural engineer. But hey, thanks for all your help. Let's see what you wrote in your OP - "I'm looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall. I opened up a bit of sheetrock and found that there is a single 2x4 top plate that runs under one joist. Being that the wall separates the garage from the main living area, I thought it might be structural, but based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing." You wrote in plain English that you are looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall, and that you're 99% sure its not load bearing. Now you're saying that you're just looking for pointers. Okey dokey. This thread is exactly the same as every other structural / construction thread on arfcom. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:04:58 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's see what you wrote in your OP - "I'm looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall. I opened up a bit of sheetrock and found that there is a single 2x4 top plate that runs under one joist. Being that the wall separates the garage from the main living area, I thought it might be structural, but based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing." You wrote in plain English that you are looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall, and that you're 99% sure its not load bearing. Now you're saying that you're just looking for pointers. Okey dokey. This thread is exactly the same as every other structural / construction thread on arfcom. Thanks again for the valuable input chief. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:27:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carpenter here, which means I know more than the SE in most cases. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:27:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks again for the valuable input chief. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let's see what you wrote in your OP - "I'm looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall. I opened up a bit of sheetrock and found that there is a single 2x4 top plate that runs under one joist. Being that the wall separates the garage from the main living area, I thought it might be structural, but based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing." You wrote in plain English that you are looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall, and that you're 99% sure its not load bearing. Now you're saying that you're just looking for pointers. Okey dokey. This thread is exactly the same as every other structural / construction thread on arfcom. Thanks again for the valuable input chief. This worked out perfect. I'm an expert and you're belligerently clueless. I would not change a thing about it, everyone walks away a winner. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:33:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. . . you're belligerently clueless. Isn't that usually the case? And in this thread the carpenter even chimes in that he knows more that the structural engineer "in most cases". Always good for a laugh. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:47:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This worked out perfect. I'm an expert and you're belligerently clueless. I would not change a thing about it, everyone walks away a winner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's see what you wrote in your OP - "I'm looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall. I opened up a bit of sheetrock and found that there is a single 2x4 top plate that runs under one joist. Being that the wall separates the garage from the main living area, I thought it might be structural, but based on joist placement, the support beam, and single top plate, I'm 99% sure its not load bearing." You wrote in plain English that you are looking for confirmation that this isn't a load bearing wall, and that you're 99% sure its not load bearing. Now you're saying that you're just looking for pointers. Okey dokey. This thread is exactly the same as every other structural / construction thread on arfcom. Thanks again for the valuable input chief. This worked out perfect. I'm an expert and you're belligerently clueless. I would not change a thing about it, everyone walks away a winner. You get off on this don't you. I'm ok with being clueless. That's why I'm here asking for help. You go keep doing expert things and I'll keep asking questions. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 4:49:41 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't that usually the case? And in this thread the carpenter even chimes in that he knows more that the structural engineer "in most cases". Always good for a laugh. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
. . . you're belligerently clueless. Isn't that usually the case? And in this thread the carpenter even chimes in that he knows more that the structural engineer "in most cases". Always good for a laugh. Some of us didn't go to school for this shit and look to others for a little guidance. 
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Posted: 1/3/2016 8:01:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The OP is shopping for a "yes" He just wants someone to agree with him. That's not how engineering works. If you cannot confirm whether the wall is load bearing or just a partition wall, then the proper thing is to treat the wall as a load bearing wall and design the modification on that basis. Because of the possibility of collapse, you must always pick the more conservative, safer answer. I'm not shopping for anything. I'm looking for input. Engineering doesnt involve building shit that doesn't need building either. I will likely have an engineer take a look before I go ripping out walls, but I was looking for some input so i don't go in blind. One of us knows literally nothing at all about structural engineering. One of us is a chief structural engineer with a master's degree in engineering and with 25+ years of hands-on experience of producing plans, specs and calcs for multi-million dollar projects. I know the above won't keep you from arguing with me. But it does add to the comedy. That's okay I'm still stuck with the fire issue... |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 10:19:52 AM EDT
[#41]
With a wall directly above, I wouldn't even think about not putting in a header. (Edit: Or possibley add a beam up in the floor system, if space is available, but see next statement.)
So, your question should be what will be bearing on that wall and on the header, and therefore, what size header is required. Can't tell you that without on-site investigation. |
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Posted: 1/3/2016 2:09:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Carpenter here, which means I know more than the SE in most cases. From a practical standpoint, he's right. In residential framing, joists will sit on load bearing walls perpendicular, not along a random joist. Especially if the wall is support just one joist, and all the others are full span, then it's certainly not a load bearing mandatory wall. Typically, but not always, load bearing framing will have a double top plate. It's not that the guy is performing a load path analysis, it's just that he's going to be familiar with how shit is and isn't done in residential framing. |
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