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Posted: 7/1/2010 8:31:18 AM EDT
I've been seeing some .410 pistol barrels that are modified from .44 magnum barrels on gunbrokr lately. Seller says originally a .44 Mag hotshot barrel, chamber lengthened and now it only fires .410. I've been told the reason the .410/.45 barrels(and Judge) are legal is they are a .45 that just happens to work with .410. The modified .44 barrel only fires .410, so rifled or not, wouldn't that make it an unregistered SBS?
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 8:34:30 AM EDT
Tag for info, but I think the rifling has something to do with it.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 8:41:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2010 8:43:50 AM EDT by JohnMikerson]
The judge is legal because it has a rifled barrel

these barrel conversions, are they rifled or smooth?

keep in mind the contender has all kinds of exemptions thanks to the ATF tech branch


edit:found it on GB, the barrel is rifled so its 100% legal
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 9:08:02 AM EDT
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 9:13:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 9:34:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2010 9:35:57 AM EDT by shack357]
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?


Could also have something to do with the operating pressure-Isn't the .460 somewhere around 65,000 psi? No idea what the .500 runs at. If .460 is enough higher maybe the action won't take it. It would be a fun gun if safe though(I wouldn't mind a double rifle in that caliber if feasible).
As for the rifling, I thought there was more to it than just rifling(multi caliber instead of shotgun only calber).
Maybe I'll buy the barrel then-cheaper than .45/.410 barrels by about $50.
I'd really like to find a good price on a .45-70 barrel first though
ETA-there are some .460 Encore barrels on gunbroker, so maybe it is an issue with the H&R frame not able to withstand the pressure.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 9:36:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?


Could also have something to do with the operating pressure-Isn't the .460 somewhere around 65,000 psi? No idea what the .500 runs at. If .460 is enough higher maybe the action won't take it. It would be a fun gun if safe though(I wouldn't mind a double rifle in that caliber if feasible).
As for the rifling, I thought there was more to it than just rifling(multi caliber instead of shotgun only calber).
Maybe I'll buy the barrel then-cheaper than .45/.410 barrels by about $50.
I'd really like to find a good price on a .45-70 barrel first though


My 45/70 wouldn't stay locked.  An empty 45/70 casing at that speed and proximity to the forehead hurts like a bastard.

Link Posted: 7/1/2010 9:49:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?


Could also have something to do with the operating pressure-Isn't the .460 somewhere around 65,000 psi? No idea what the .500 runs at. If .460 is enough higher maybe the action won't take it. It would be a fun gun if safe though(I wouldn't mind a double rifle in that caliber if feasible).
As for the rifling, I thought there was more to it than just rifling(multi caliber instead of shotgun only calber).
Maybe I'll buy the barrel then-cheaper than .45/.410 barrels by about $50.
I'd really like to find a good price on a .45-70 barrel first though


My 45/70 wouldn't stay locked.  An empty 45/70 casing at that speed and proximity to the forehead hurts like a bastard.



Had that problem with my .44 barrel when I first got the gun. turns out the previous owner had adjusted the trigger to the point that the sear wouldn't stay "set" unless you BARELY closed the action enough to reach the locking lugs. Slightest touch on the reigger would fire the gun and several times I had to squeeze the triggerguard to reset the internals. Backed the creep adjustment off and haven't had a problem since. Sure, .45-70 is a MUCH bigger round, but I just can't get over the itch to have one. A friend just bought a BFR in .45-70 so I hope to shoot that sometime soon and get an idea of how much punishment I'll be signing up for. The .44 and .22 Hornet barrels I have are just plain fun. Even if I don't get the big barrel, I've used .44 on deer, and within my skill level it does the job well.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 10:49:01 AM EDT
Looks like I have a reason to buy a TC.   ohhh the cash
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 10:56:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2010 11:01:55 AM EDT by RIA45ACP]
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?


Could also have something to do with the operating pressure-Isn't the .460 somewhere around 65,000 psi? No idea what the .500 runs at. If .460 is enough higher maybe the action won't take it. It would be a fun gun if safe though(I wouldn't mind a double rifle in that caliber if feasible).
As for the rifling, I thought there was more to it than just rifling(multi caliber instead of shotgun only calber).
Maybe I'll buy the barrel then-cheaper than .45/.410 barrels by about $50.
I'd really like to find a good price on a .45-70 barrel first though


My 45/70 wouldn't stay locked.  An empty 45/70 casing at that speed and proximity to the forehead hurts like a bastard.



Had that problem with my .44 barrel when I first got the gun. turns out the previous owner had adjusted the trigger to the point that the sear wouldn't stay "set" unless you BARELY closed the action enough to reach the locking lugs. Slightest touch on the reigger would fire the gun and several times I had to squeeze the triggerguard to reset the internals. Backed the creep adjustment off and haven't had a problem since. Sure, .45-70 is a MUCH bigger round, but I just can't get over the itch to have one. A friend just bought a BFR in .45-70 so I hope to shoot that sometime soon and get an idea of how much punishment I'll be signing up for. The .44 and .22 Hornet barrels I have are just plain fun. Even if I don't get the big barrel, I've used .44 on deer, and within my skill level it does the job well.



I had a 45/70 barrel when I had Contenders, the main thing I Noticed is most people want to hold it with stiff arms and a death grip, which makes the recoil hurt. Let it recoil, obviously not loose enough for it to smack you in the face, but you don't want the death grip on it either. Just let it roll back in your hand. The Pachmayr rubber grip or the old wood Silhouette grip worked best for me with big calibers.

Silhouette Grip.

Link Posted: 7/1/2010 11:34:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
Originally Posted By danos660r:
I want a H&R in 460 S&W mag.....45 lc, 454, 460 and 410....and cheap.  Why has this not been done?


Smith may not let the rights to the cal. go yet.  Anything else chambered in it yet?


Could also have something to do with the operating pressure-Isn't the .460 somewhere around 65,000 psi? No idea what the .500 runs at. If .460 is enough higher maybe the action won't take it. It would be a fun gun if safe though(I wouldn't mind a double rifle in that caliber if feasible).
As for the rifling, I thought there was more to it than just rifling(multi caliber instead of shotgun only calber).
Maybe I'll buy the barrel then-cheaper than .45/.410 barrels by about $50.
I'd really like to find a good price on a .45-70 barrel first though
ETA-there are some .460 Encore barrels on gunbroker, so maybe it is an issue with the H&R frame not able to withstand the pressure.


It's probably the pressure issue.  460 S&W operates at the sort of pressures you'd expect from very high pressure magnum rifle cartridges, such 7mm Remington Magnum.
Link Posted: 7/1/2010 11:44:36 AM EDT
As long as the bore is 0.500" or less and rifled, it matters not the chambering.  As .410 shotgun is less than 0.500", it is legal.




Link Posted: 7/19/2010 3:35:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 3:38:18 PM EDT by shack357]
Ended up getting the barrel. Shown with my ,44 and .22 Hornet. Not the best picture, was too lazy to set up for a "good" photo." target="_blank">
The barrel is .410 only, not .45/.410, but I wanted it for the .410 capability anyway. If I get a .45 barrel I'll get another super 14.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 3:43:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:02:35 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Tolip:



Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:

the rifling has something to do with it.




I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?


Interesting thought there.



 
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:13:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 4:15:13 PM EDT by shack357]
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


I vaguely seem to remember old shotgun barrels that had straight line rifling, maybe it would be legal. Don't know how much  the straight rifling would help, but it's an interesting idea.
ETA-maybe it's an illusion from the shorter length, but this barrel(rechambered .44 mag) seems to have a slower twist than my 14" .44 does.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:16:43 PM EDT
All handguns must have a rifled barrel unless otherwise exempted by the ATF.

Link Posted: 7/19/2010 4:40:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


Nothing in the law that prevents it.  It just has to be rifled.  It'd be up to ATF to prove that your ultra-slow twist isn't rifling.

That being said, I wouldn't want to be the test case.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:10:05 PM EDT



Originally Posted By shack357:



Originally Posted By Keith_J:




Originally Posted By Tolip:


Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:

the rifling has something to do with it.




I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?


Interesting thought there.

 




I vaguely seem to remember old shotgun barrels that had straight line rifling, maybe it would be legal. Don't know how much  the straight rifling would help, but it's an interesting idea.

ETA-maybe it's an illusion from the shorter length, but this barrel(rechambered .44 mag) seems to have a slower twist than my 14" .44 does.


That is to stop a wad from spinning.  I would suppose 1:66" is about the legal limit as that rate would stabilize a round ball, the lightest projectile that will fill the bore.



Should I try a shot load in my muzzle loader?



 
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:12:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


or depth of rifling
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:02:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


I vaguely seem to remember old shotgun barrels that had straight line rifling, maybe it would be legal. Don't know how much  the straight rifling would help, but it's an interesting idea.
ETA-maybe it's an illusion from the shorter length, but this barrel(rechambered .44 mag) seems to have a slower twist than my 14" .44 does.

That is to stop a wad from spinning.  I would suppose 1:66" is about the legal limit as that rate would stabilize a round ball, the lightest projectile that will fill the bore.

Should I try a shot load in my muzzle loader?
 


If you have a shot cup the size of your bore to do it right by all means-might be interesting how it turns out.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:07:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


I vaguely seem to remember old shotgun barrels that had straight line rifling, maybe it would be legal. Don't know how much  the straight rifling would help, but it's an interesting idea.
ETA-maybe it's an illusion from the shorter length, but this barrel(rechambered .44 mag) seems to have a slower twist than my 14" .44 does.

That is to stop a wad from spinning.  I would suppose 1:66" is about the legal limit as that rate would stabilize a round ball, the lightest projectile that will fill the bore.

Should I try a shot load in my muzzle loader?
 


If you have a shot cup the size of your bore to do it right by all means-might be interesting how it turns out.


He doesn't need a shot cup...just an over powder "card wad", possibly some felt wads, and then an "over shot card wad".....like they used before plastic shot cups.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:13:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By shack357:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By goldeyeslayer:
the rifling has something to do with it.


I wonder if there's a limit on the speed of the rifling.  Could you have a .410 pistol with a rifled barrel with a 1/10feet twist rate?

Interesting thought there.
 


I vaguely seem to remember old shotgun barrels that had straight line rifling, maybe it would be legal. Don't know how much  the straight rifling would help, but it's an interesting idea.
ETA-maybe it's an illusion from the shorter length, but this barrel(rechambered .44 mag) seems to have a slower twist than my 14" .44 does.

That is to stop a wad from spinning.  I would suppose 1:66" is about the legal limit as that rate would stabilize a round ball, the lightest projectile that will fill the bore.

Should I try a shot load in my muzzle loader?
 


If you have a shot cup the size of your bore to do it right by all means-might be interesting how it turns out.


He doesn't need a shot cup...just an over powder "card wad", possibly some felt wads, and then an "over shot card wad".....like they used before plastic shot cups.


Good point-my point in using the shot cup was for an "apples to apples" test. The .410 barrel is rifled and using a shot cup, for a proper comoparison the muzzleloader should have a shot cup IMO. As you describe, shot would still contact rifling unless I'm missing something in your description that separates shot from the barrel. If I'm understanding you right you're only separating shot from powder and covering the end so it doesn't pour out.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:43:28 PM EDT
You can still load shells with old style felt and card wads.  Shot cups in .410 take up precious space.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:45:09 PM EDT
Sounds like a potential gray area.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:48:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 8:58:07 PM EDT by BRAlaska]
Totally legal. I had a custom super 14" barrel "double cut" to shoot .410 and .444 marlin. Quite the handful.





And if Taurus ever releases the raging judge, I'll ream one to 45-70..ya see recoil's my thing.



 
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:45:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BRAlaska:
Totally legal. I had a custom super 14" barrel "double cut" to shoot .410 and .444 marlin. Quite the handful.

And if Taurus ever releases the raging judge, I'll ream one to 45-70..ya see recoil's my thing.
 


Why not get the Magnum Research BFR? After seeing suggested price on the Raging Judge the BFR price looks similar. Also, wouldn't the bore size be a bit small? .454 vs .458, not a lot of difference but I'm not sure I'd want to risk it with a round that big.
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