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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/3/2004 12:13:03 PM EST
Any suggestions?

I have to do two in the coming week. We have a company form that the supervisor (me) and the employee both fill out, and then they meet to discuss the form and go over their differences and areas where the employee excells and could stand to improve.

One of the people I have to evaluate is the female employee that some of you have seen me post about before. The purpose of her evaluation is to determine whether or not she should get a $4k/year raise or not, as stipulated in her employment contract. I do not think she is qualified to be in the position, let alone to get a raise. Her evaluation will not be favorable overall, and if asked I will not recomend her for the raise. I have a feeling this is going to stir up quite a shitstorm. I do not think that she is above crying sexual discrimination. I also think that her work will get worse after this, not better. The easy road is to give her a glowing evaluation, let her get her raise, let her keep plodding along half-assed for the next 6 months and then I'll be rid of her and she'll be someone else's problem. I do not think that is the right thing to do, as I think that her current contribution to the company is below what she is paid. We have secretaries in our company that have more practical experience and would be better qualified to fill that position, and would contribute more.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:21:07 PM EST
If this is the one you have been giving crap about the haircut, give her the raise and don't say crap. Otherwise, get your fear that she will make false accusations in writing, document everything. Lots of people slack off right after a raise, thats cause for terrmination if you have to go that route.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:21:14 PM EST
If possible have a female review her performance. If not, don't bomb her in the review. Just enough that she won't get the raise.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:22:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Any suggestions?



Yes, and I tell you from experience...


I do not think she is qualified to be in the position, let alone to get a raise. Her evaluation will not be favorable overall, and if asked I will not recomend her for the raise.


Be sure to document specific instances where her performance (or lack thereof) supports your position. Have you had to counsel her in the past? If so, did you document it? Can you go to other supervisors in your company that she may have had dealings with and get their WRITTEN input? What about her co-workers? (At J&J we called that a 360-degree evaluation, and good managers did it for ALL their people, both good and bad).


I have a feeling this is going to stir up quite a shitstorm.


No doubt....


I do not think that she is above crying sexual discrimination.


That's why you need to document what she has or hasn't done, so that such a claim can be shown to be false.


I also think that her work will get worse after this, not better.


In the review, specifically mention that she is being put on an employee performance program, and if there is no improvement in, say, 60 days, that further action may be taken "including termination of employment."

She needs to sign the review to document the fact she knows she is on that program. In fact, the program itself (including SPECIFIC goals) should be documented on its own.


The easy road is to give her a glowing evaluation, let her get her raise, let her keep plodding along half-assed for the next 6 months and then I'll be rid of her and she'll be someone else's problem.


Do that, and you'll NEVER be rid of her. I was on the receiving end of that with an employee once, and I could have killed the long line of a$$holes that sent her to me.....


I do not think that is the right thing to do, as I think that her current contribution to the company is below what she is paid.


Remember, in your role, your primary client is the company. Just be sure that your positions are DOCUMENTED, and that senior management knows about all of it BEFORE you present her with the review. They don't like surprises.


We have secretaries in our company that have more practical experience and would be better qualified to fill that position, and would contribute more.


That means nothing, unless you guys actively rank your employees annually and, like GE, lop off the bottom 10% just to keep the other 90% clawing for altitude. If you DON'T do that, then you must base your review of her ENTIRELY upon her performance when compared to the job description she is filling.

Good luck. I'll be here if you have more questions.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:24:34 PM EST
My opinion would be to keep something like this at work, since you plan on Firing her.
You dont know that she or someone she knows reads this board or not................and could lead to your demise.

I know you dont post her name, but I think it would be a good Idea to keep it at work
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:20:30 PM EST
Oh! One other thing....

DO NOT, under ANY circumstances, do ANY of this without also informing your HR department FIRST (assuming you have one). THEY hate surprises worse than management!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:27:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh! One other thing....

DO NOT, under ANY circumstances, do ANY of this without also informing your HR department FIRST (assuming you have one). THEY hate surprises worse than management!



No, they (such as "they" are) know. She's been bucking for this for a month because she wants the money, and I had to talk to my boss, who talked to the pres. of the company and the idiot in "hr" that hired her.

Part of the problem here is that we really don't have an HR department. We've got one horny old bastard that does the hiring, and he doesn't even want that job.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:35:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:44:27 PM EST
If you are asking this question you do not have the ability to do your job related task. Therefore you share a similarity.

This is not to start a flame just to give an outside view. You are being paid to review the employee...(doesn't matter if it is a woman. man or a mule)...Do your job and things will turn out the way the company wants them to...

MT
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:51:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
If you are asking this question you do not have the ability to do your job related task. Therefore you share a similarity.

This is not to start a flame just to give an outside view. You are being paid to review the employee...(doesn't matter if it is a woman. man or a mule)...Do your job and things will turn out the way the company wants them to...

MT



that's a load of shit.

She should have never been hired. If she did slip through the cracks, I should have been allowed to fire her 5 months ago when I asked to. I have no problem reviewing the other employee because he's someone who has the background to be in the position. And as a point of fact, standard employee evaluations aren't for another 8 months. The only reason we're doing this at all is because of her special treatment with this raise after 6 months bullshit. The company can't shirk their duties, and then dump this shit on me. Actually, yes they can, but nobody is going to be happy with the results. Not me, her, or them.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:54:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:55:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:
"Equal Rights" my ass. She can say you came onto her and it is all YOU to prove otherwise, she can just sit back and watch.



That honestly doesn't bother me. I'm tyring to minimize the chances of that happening as much as possible, but if it does I'll simply walk out. My bucket of shit is pretty full right now, and a "he was hitting on me" charge would pretty much cause it to overflow.

That this is going to get ugly is a fact, the issue is just how ugly and who is going to suffer.

Fortunately I have a record of going to all of my superiors repeatedly for the last 6 months asking to fire her, asking how to properly reprimand her, asking why we hired her to begin with, etc. Very little of it is in writing, but if these are the kind of people that are going to sell me out then I don't want to work there anyway. I have absolutely no worry at all that I'll have a higher paying job within a week.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:56:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:
I would find any way possible to NOT review her. I did not know this bit of info....



I tried. I told my VP that I didn't want to do it because I didn't think it would come across as impartial. He shirked his duty and stuck me with it, because this is now the hot potato that nobody wants to touch.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:01:06 PM EST

CYA brother,......CYA Cover your ASS


Give her just enough recommendation to get her raise. Whatever paperwork is involved needs to have her sorry work habits listed. Then a couple of weeks after her raise goes through, pick her apart on these work habits. Constantly!!!!!!!

Do not open yourself to any kind of retribution from her. Besides, like you said, she'll go away after 6 months. Right?

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:01:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:03:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 2:05:23 PM EST by MT_Pockets]

that's a load of shit.

She should have never been hired. If she did slip through the cracks, I should have been allowed to fire her 5 months ago when I asked to. I have no problem reviewing the other employee because he's someone who has the background to be in the position. And as a point of fact, standard employee evaluations aren't for another 8 months. The only reason we're doing this at all is because of her special treatment with this raise after 6 months bullshit. The company can't shirk their duties, and then dump this shit on me. Actually, yes they can, but nobody is going to be happy with the results. Not me, her, or them.



norman... like I said I disn't say it to start a flame...you asked for an opinion. I don't know your history other than what was posted at the top of the thread.

I know there are lots of fun interoffice games the higher up play so they don't have to deal with the trash. But if they want to evaluate her you should do it truthfully and then you will never have to regret your action.

MT

edit to add...if you requested her fired before...the Big Guys must want her gone so they are letting you handle it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:05:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Originally Posted By brasspile:
"that honestly doesn't bother me. I'm tyring to minimize the chances of that happening as much as possible, but if it does I'll simply walk out. My bucket of shit is pretty full right now, and a "he was hitting on me" charge would pretty much cause it to overflow.

That this is going to get ugly is a fact, the issue is just how ugly and who is going to suffer.

Fortunately I have a record of going to all of my superiors repeatedly for the last 6 months asking to fire her, asking how to properly reprimand her, asking why we hired her to begin with, etc. Very little of it is in writing, but if these are the kind of people that are going to sell me out then I don't want to work there anyway. I have absolutely no worry at all that I'll have a higher paying job within a week.



So , You are unhappy in your job - You don't trust your Superiors - and if things don't
go Your way - you will leave.......


Who Evaluates you ?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:11:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
I know there are lots of fun interoffice games the higher up play so they don't have to deal with the trash. But if they want to evaluate her you should do it truthfully and then you will never have to regret your action.


That is my plan. I spent a couple of hours today filling out her evaluation form, and I spent quite awhile addressing each item that has to be rated. It sucks because alot of the items are things like "creativity-offers new perspective and vision, practices continuous improvement by seeking better ways to perform tasks". She tries, but the problem is she doesn't have the knowledge base to draw from that she should, and therefore her solutions wind up being bigger problems that the one she was trying to solve.

I think I filled it out honestly, and she has scores from 2 through 5. I didn't give anyone any 1s even though I thought she deserved a couple. I told myself starting out that nobody was getting any 1s.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:12:37 PM EST
Are you banging her? Is someone else at work banging her? Is she hot?


Did she lie about her qualifications on her resume or employment app?


Can you transfer her?


...............flares, lime, water, etc.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:13:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By AKsRule:

So , You are unhappy in your job - You don't trust your Superiors - and if things don't
go Your way - you will leave.......




No, if those same superiors sell me down the river, like I've seen them do to other people before, I'll leave. I have no loyalty to them, because they have no loyalty to me.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:46:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Any suggestions?

I have to do two in the coming week. We have a company form that the supervisor (me) and the employee both fill out, and then they meet to discuss the form and go over their differences and areas where the employee excells and could stand to improve.

One of the people I have to evaluate is the female employee that some of you have seen me post about before. The purpose of her evaluation is to determine whether or not she should get a $4k/year raise or not, as stipulated in her employment contract. I do not think she is qualified to be in the position, let alone to get a raise. Her evaluation will not be favorable overall, and if asked I will not recomend her for the raise. I have a feeling this is going to stir up quite a shitstorm. I do not think that she is above crying sexual discrimination. I also think that her work will get worse after this, not better. The easy road is to give her a glowing evaluation, let her get her raise, let her keep plodding along half-assed for the next 6 months and then I'll be rid of her and she'll be someone else's problem. I do not think that is the right thing to do, as I think that her current contribution to the company is below what she is paid. We have secretaries in our company that have more practical experience and would be better qualified to fill that position, and would contribute more.



Ditto on the CYA: Inform your super and HR NOW, in writing, of your concerns and planned course of action, and especially that you have a gut feeling that negative review could spark false sexual harrassment accusation. Getting the first shit in on paper is GOLD in a suit like that.

Now, start woirking on her. Give her a written warning outlining your concerns. If possible, get your super to take some heat and give her the warning, telling her that he won't let you give her the raise in a month or two on her review unless he's satisfied. Get the super to tell her some of the nice things you've said about her (something other that "nice ass"). Explain the strategy to your super. If he isn't willing to do this for you and take some heat off you to ensure good working relations and really get her attention, I'm sorry, your boss sucks. Sometimes pushing responsibility up is right and it's a great tool.

She now thinks you're her corner. Check in with her weekly, remind her that you want to give her the raise and keep positive in suggesting the things she can do to be assured of getting it. When bad things happen, remind her that your super won't let you give out any raise money unless XYZ goes well/is done right, etc.

When you give the review, start with all of the positives, give lots. Try to give half as many things next that need improvement. If you can't come up with twice as many nice things as opportunities, fire her, she's hopeless. f you're giving her the raise, tell her you can't justify the next raise untill those things have improved. If you're not givign her the raise, tell her those things need to improve before you can give her the raise. If that's the case, see if HR will allow you to re-do her review in 90 days or so, so she doesn't have to wait a year for another eval and possible raise. This helps immensly with feelings of ill will that result from a bad review. Sucks if you have to wait a year to see the reward for your improvement.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:01:41 PM EST
I agree with what Zaphod stated earlier. I had to write evals that followed employees civil service rights as well as union ones. If you are going to give her a bad review make sure you back up all your "dings" with facts not opinions. The more you keep opinions out of your eval, the better. Ideally you should have been "dinging" her throughout the evaluation period so you would have a paper trail leading up to the eval. That way you can say you tried to counsel her but she continued to not show any improvement.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:13:33 PM EST
It's starting to sound like my initial impression that this was going to go in the shitter was correct.

I asked several months ago how to "ding" her in writing and was told not to, to do it verbally.

I do have the draft of the written "ding" saved on my hard drive though.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:24:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Fortunately I have a record of going to all of my superiors repeatedly for the last 6 months asking to fire her, asking how to properly reprimand her, asking why we hired her to begin with, etc. Very little of it is in writing, .....



Then you arguably don't have the required record! Be careful!

Also, you are getting lots of good advice here. Read and heed.

One thing: Is she being dinged because she does her job poorly or because she is not qualififed to properly perform the assigned job? The former is her problem, but the latter is YOURS. Be VERY CAREFUL when you consider the answer, because it all hinges upon it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:29:52 PM EST
Just be certain aat no time during the process is the gold digger alone with any superior. Make sure to have at least 3 people from start to finish. If your wingman has to go piss, ALL parties leave the office and get into open space.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:48:44 PM EST
Every time I have pulled punches on a review I have regretted it and now I give it straight up, spelling out strengths and deficiencies or ways to build depth. Once an employee has a good review in hand, it's damn near impossible to get shed of them, particularly if you are constantly short handed. This is a real problem with contract engineers chasing the high hourly wages in the aerospace industry, and I cut the non-performers loose immediately.

I think you need to have your boss, and if he is a wuss, his boss present during the review. Stop worrying about harassment charges and concentrate on doing an emplemplary job of performance review.

If you are assigning performance scores be careful that they don't average out to "average performance" or you will likely have to give the raise. If the scores are weighted by an "importance" factor, juggle them til the overall rating is less than acceptable.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:49:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
One thing: Is she being dinged because she does her job poorly or because she is not qualififed to properly perform the assigned job? The former is her problem, but the latter is YOURS. Be VERY CAREFUL when you consider the answer, because it all hinges upon it.



Both actually. As I've said she never should have been hired. There are two ways to get her job; either you have a degree, or you have a SHITLOAD of experience. She has neither.
On top of that, she's not a good employee. Her cell phone rings no less than 10x a day, she's always scatterbrained, she can't repeat a task more than about 3 times without fucking it up, she can't remember to turn in her reports on every friday, she flat refuses to do things in the format that I tell her, and she can't write a professional memo or letter to save her life.

I think the timetable on the review just got bumped up. I was supposed to take her to lunch, but this is going to take too long. Now we're going to stay late after work. Probably tomorrow night. I'll keep ya'll posted on how it goes.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:53:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
There are two ways to get her job; either you have a degree, or you have a SHITLOAD of experience. She has neither.



Not good. She can argue that you guys thought she was qualified for the job, however...


On top of that, she's not a good employee. Her cell phone rings no less than 10x a day, she's always scatterbrained, she can't repeat a task more than about 3 times without fucking it up, she can't remember to turn in her reports on every friday, she flat refuses to do things in the format that I tell her, and she can't write a professional memo or letter to save her life.


THAT is what you nail her to the wall with.


I think the timetable on the review just got bumped up. I was supposed to take her to lunch, but this is going to take too long. Now we're going to stay late after work. Probably tomorrow night. I'll keep ya'll posted on how it goes.


Lunch? Late after work? Are you frigging INSANE?

This is NOT a social function! Do it at 10AM in your office with HR/President/Whoever present, then give her the rest of the day off to think about it.

LUNCH?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:03:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Lunch? Late after work? Are you frigging INSANE?

This is NOT a social function! Do it at 10AM in your office with HR/President/Whoever present, then give her the rest of the day off to think about it.

LUNCH?


Lunch wasn't my idea, it was my boss's.

I was thinking after work in my office. The problem here is that I don't really have an office. It's a construction trailer, and the Super and I share an office. The walls are pretty much paper thin. I can't do it in my office during the day with any sort of hope of privacy. Anything said in there above a whisper is going to get heard by everyone else. Not to mention that the two hours it takes to do this already mean that she and I aren't going to be doing anything productive, I don't want to shut the Super down too.


Maybe I can find an office to borrow at corporate and I can meet her there first thing. I'll try and get my boss to attend, but I can guarantee you that our "hr" guy that I described earlier will just flat refuse to be involved.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:04:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By norman74:
There are two ways to get her job; either you have a degree, or you have a SHITLOAD of experience. She has neither.



Not good. She can argue that you guys thought she was qualified for the job, however...



Oh yeah, and they did. Because she lied.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:06:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:08:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:

Originally Posted By norman74:

Lunch wasn't my idea, it was my boss's.



I don't mean to piss in the party punch, but it seems that they aren't looking to fire HER.



Not to sound cocky, but they'd be fucked if I left. Even if they already had somebody lined up to take my place, I'm the only one that knows what's going on because I've been there from the start. I know that there's no such thing as an irreplaceable employee, but I'm pretty solid.

and, as I said ealier, if this goes to shit and I get fired or quit, I won't be out of work for a week unless I want to be.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 6:12:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:14:23 PM EST
norman, give her a glowing review with the raise and quit.
You'll have a new job and they'll be stuck with her.
Everybody wins!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:29:13 PM EST
Forget the "High Road" here... I say, jack-knife her with a big stick and run for the hills.

NOTE-TO-SELF: WTF did I just say?

----------
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." --George Orwell--
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:33:16 PM EST
Im wondering how my review will go, its 4 months late
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 1:55:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Oh yeah, and they did. Because she lied.



INSTANTANEOUS reason for firing. No questions asked. Just make sure you can document the lie.

I'm not kidding. I saw a gy get fired immediately when it was discovered he had lied on his application YEARS before, and he was GOOD, too!
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 1:55:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Lunch? Late after work? Are you frigging INSANE?

This is NOT a social function! Do it at 10AM in your office with HR/President/Whoever present, then give her the rest of the day off to think about it.

LUNCH?


Lunch wasn't my idea, it was my boss's.



Your boss is insane.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:09:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your boss is insane.



I would tend to agree.

We'll be having a chat about this today. I am going to propose using a "spare" office at the corporate office building, and I'm going to suggest doing it at 8AM and all of us meeting there to do it (me, him, the evaluee). I am also going to suggest that if we don't do it this way I won't be participating.

I have the forms filled out and I'm going to get him copies of them today so that he can look at them ahead of time.

Generally speaking I don't mind the trial by fire method of learning in my new position, but this is one of those times when someone with more stroke than me needs to be involved.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:12:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Your boss is insane.



I would tend to agree.

We'll be having a chat about this today. I am going to propose using a "spare" office at the corporate office building, and I'm going to suggest doing it at 8AM and all of us meeting there to do it (me, him, the evaluee). I am also going to suggest that if we don't do it this way I won't be participating.



VERY good plan.


Generally speaking I don't mind the trial by fire method of learning in my new position, but this is one of those times when someone with more stroke than me needs to be involved.


Absolutely, especially since the company will be the one on the hotseat if the bitch decides to sue...
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