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Posted: 10/24/2004 3:44:36 PM EST
The past couple of weeks have seen a huge increase in the hunter crowd showing up to do their "sight ins" for the season. Some are real pros and other are...well, what they know about shooting comes from browsing Guns and Ammo at the barber shop a couple of times a year and watching Arnie movies.

I've noticed this type does two things that just drive me nuts. I'd love to go up and correct them but it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. In any case what I see most are:

o Bad Trigger Form. Wrapping the finger around the trigger beyond the first knuckle. These guys yank hard, pull their shots and can't group worth crap. They finally decide that they've dialed in good enough to hit a deer but the shots cover their 3' x 2' target.

o Putting the Barrel of the Rifle on the Rest. These guys have never learned the lesson that nothing touches the barrel. Ever. I particularly like the guys who have to put their hand on the barrel when they take their shot. Hmmm, this rifle is too steady, maybe if I put my hand up here...

Any other interesting pet peeves on how folks shoot? 'Tis the season!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:46:50 PM EST
The funniest one is when ppl ANTICIPATE their shots. Especially when they run the gun empty and still think there is rounds in the chamber. Ive seen less fishing from Roland Martin
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:48:10 PM EST
The one that others me the most are guys who touch their barrel while shooting or only fire one shot to see if they are on target.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:51:57 PM EST
I've taught SPORTS at the range several times.

And when someone needs correcting, I engage them in conversation about how much I admire whatever weapon they have. I just integrate my suggestions to them in a story about how I used to have a bad habit then someone showed me...blah, blah, blah...

It's worked every time - whether they admit it or not, just sit back and take casual notice of them heeding your advice.

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:55:20 PM EST
People leaning backwards with their arms locked shooting handguns.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:06:26 PM EST
I shoot OK, but always welcome advise. It isn't uncommon for me to help noobs (usually fathers with their kids) at the range. I keep a kit bag full of tools and lubes to keep everyone shooting, and offer what I do know up for help.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:06:33 PM EST
They get ready for deer season, yet they never shoot their firearm from anyplace but the bench.

They need to fire offhand, kneeling and a few other positions to get the feel of it.

Where I hunt I don't see many cement benches.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:12:28 PM EST
people resting the gun on the mag or otherwise using it as a monopod. I often saw new AR-15 owners doing this.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:16:05 PM EST
I seem to be the only one at the range when I go. But one mistake I've seen was a guy who accidentally chambered and fried a .308 in a 7mm Mag. His gun went kaboom.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:20:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Alchemist:
I seem to be the only one at the range when I go. But one mistake I've seen was a guy who accidentally chambered and fried a .308 in a 7mm Mag. His gun went kaboom.



But he probably won't do that again!
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:32:24 PM EST
went to the range about 2 months ago...this ghetto wanna be thug type walks out to the range to put up a target while i am unloading a 45 ..friggin dumbass loos at me like i am a asshole...i said 45 makes a big hole in certian cases dumbass,,,,,he said sorry...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:37:36 PM EST
too much trigger finger and pushing are the most common i see in my classes.


J
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:40:45 PM EST
Chicken wing elbows.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:42:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 4:43:10 PM EST by Jason280]
Here is one of my experiences. One of our past hunting clubs was located near a small town, which had more than its share of thugs and hoodlums. Well, the town had a rather informal range, and was basically a 100yd by the road range with a huge dirt backstop, maybe 50 feet high.

First of all, this was when I was 16 and I was rather inexperienced with morons. Well, I was at this little range sighting in a bolt .243 when a couple of local thugs pull up in an early 80's hooptie. They were driving by and wanted to see what I was shooting, so pulled on in. Here's where it gets interesting. Here's the dialogue:

Them: What you be shootin'?

Me: .243

Them: That don't be kickin, do it?

Me: Not really.

Them: What kind o gun that is?

Me: Remington Model 7

We continue to talk for a little while, and the two guys are actually pretty nice. One dares his friend to shoot it after I fired it a couple of times, so he asks if he can. I say sure, and hand him the gun. I assumed he had shot before, but I was wrong. He pulls the gun under his right shoulder, then proceeds to pull his face way over the stock to use his left eye. He then puts his left eye all the way to the bell of the scope and goes, "I can't see shit!", all the while pulling on the trigger (safety was on). Damn, I'm glad the gun didn't go off! You should have seen the way he had his face on the stock trying to look throught he scope with his left eye WHILE PULLING THE TRIGGER!

I promptly took the gun away from him, talked a little while longer, and the two guys left. That could have gotten real ugly real fast, but I have learned my lesson!

Now I make sure the safety is off.....
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:47:47 PM EST
The best one I saw at a range was when this guy called a cease fire as he was walking out on the range. Every body still had loaded guns pointing down range and we all looked at each other like WTF?. I glanced over at the range officer since he is the one to call a cease fire with every one calling back before he says the range is cold. He did not say a word. So I told the range officer he should run a tighter ship or someone my get shot. I left after that.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:59:10 PM EST
When I see someone who doesn't know how to reset thier trigger without letting it go to rest....
I love the look on their face when they "discover" the "hair " trigger the manufacturers provided.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:02:36 PM EST
Highly trained range officer yelling "commence fire" while you're at the 100 yard line pounding targets into the ground.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:03:04 PM EST
I just avoid the local range during " Goober Days " annual sighting in days, It's too dangerous and scary having a Elmer Fudd pull a rifle out of a case and muzzle sweep everyone than jack a live round out left over from the previous year...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:03:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
Highly trained range officer yelling "commence fire" while you're at the 100 yard line pounding targets into the ground.hr


Remind me to never go there.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:07:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 5:31:38 PM EST by FortyFiveAutomatic]

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
Highly trained range officer yelling "commence fire" while you're at the 100 yard line pounding targets into the ground.



no shit, had that one happen to me the other day.

lousy fuckin jackass...

As for technique:
1. Leaning backwards instead of into the recoil
2. Hollywood pistol handling, everything from cradling the gun to sideways homeboy style
3. Supporting the barrel of a rifle like a cue stick
4. Dual-wielding
5. Heels in the air during prone fire

I'm sure there's more, I'll have to read and remember...
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:09:16 PM EST
i had an old bag of shotgun shells in the back of my truck while shooting skeet one day and my cheap buddy took a couple for his 12 guage.....he didn't know i brought my pump 16 guage...it fit right in the bore and went in just enough he had to push it out. live shell, stuck pretty good.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:10:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 5:12:11 PM EST by 338winmag]
I went to Gunstock last week. Here is what I saw:

1. Bad form.
There are a lot of shooters out there that have bad form. They don't realize that they could improve their shooting just by changing the way they shoulder the rifle. People who stick their heels up in the air in prone position.

2. Bad form II
People who use the magazine of the rifle for a base. It make a great swivel base, too bad it is so unstable.

3. Wrap around trigger fingers. 'nuff said.

4. People who try to compensate for poor marksmanship with technology. If you are a shitty shot with iron sights, you will still be a shitty shot with a thousand dollar optic on top of that rifle. Most people don't realize that the best thing you could spend your money on with a rifle is good training, and more practice ammunition. Throw a couple of competitions in there just to keep you humble.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:10:42 PM EST
Yeah, I went to a public range today...Fudds up to the eyeballs.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:18:16 PM EST
This is one from the "that doesn't make you an expert" file.

A few years ago when I worked at the PD, a certain sergeant was at the range doing his annual pistol qual. He was one of those who thought that shooting his Glock sideways like a gangsta looked cool and, what's worse, that being a police sergeant meant that he knew how to handle a pistol. Not only did he look foolish (obviously, to those who have fired a pistol at least a couple of times), but he apparently forgot that whenever the pistol is turned sideways the discharged casings no longer eject from weapon to the side, but eject somewhat upward. As luck would have it, one of the ejected casings landed right in his eye (he was too cool for eyewear, too). Needless to say he went straight to the hospital, and those of us who disliked him (who was just about everyone) felt a warm fuzzy inside
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:23:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 5:25:37 PM EST by FortyFiveAutomatic]

That's pretty funny stuff!

In Tallahassee, there's an unmanned range that most folks go to, and every once in a while you'll get the punk kids with AK47's and SKS's who will shoot at the backstop supports to hear em go clang, and then litter the place full of bottles and cans and other bullshit they bring to destroy. Some people just can't appreciate free stuff i guess...

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:32:30 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:36:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Oslow:

Originally Posted By The_Alchemist:
I seem to be the only one at the range when I go. But one mistake I've seen was a guy who accidentally chambered and fried a .308 in a 7mm Mag. His gun went kaboom.



But he probably won't do that again!



Not on that gun he won't
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:40:05 PM EST
yesterday i scared off about 13 hunters who were doing their annual sight in. there was only one open table when i arrived with three gun cases. after i opened the cases and was loading my mags i noticed it was quiet. i looked over and saw that everyone was staring at the assortment of pistols with tactical lights and assult weapons with collapsed stocks, railed fore ends, and forward grips. once i made eye contact everyone went back to shooting.

the guys beside me annoied the hell out of me. evidently they had brought a few cinder blocks from home to sharpen their skills with. the blocks were at the 25 yard mark in my firing line. to top it off they were taking turns shooting the blocks with a 7mm mag. this pissed me off, so i picked up an m4gery and took aim at their pile of busted cement. 30 rounds later it was a pile of rubble. thats when everyone started packing up. one asshole commented as he passed that it was illegal to hunt with a flashlight on one's rifle. my reply was that i only hunt burgulars in my house with the rifle and the gamewarden said the light was ok.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:42:31 PM EST
hehe, nice
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:43:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
btt



????? a 9 minute BTT? had to see your name in lights twice? wow.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:46:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:47:13 PM EST
heh, sorry, i wanted to hear more mistakes, these threads go away easy on the general forum
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:52:14 PM EST
Ok... explain the heels up thing to me? I don't get it - honest - I see the point on barrels touching the rest/hands, magazine monopods, trigger pull, etc., but not the heels thing...

Stupid things at the range... in Colorado, at a range on public land after a snow storm me and some friends were shooting. All of a sudden three or four deer wander out from behind the "backstop". My buddies decide the deer would make great targets... So, these guys start shooting between the deers' legs. Man those things were jumping about as high as I was. I was sure these guys were going to hit and kill one and some ranger/warden-type would come driving down the road. I would have left but we were about 8 miles from civilization and they were my ride...

I agree about the Elmer Fudd types. A half-dozen rounds for the year and their sight-in and practice is done!

Spooky
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:57:05 PM EST
I was tought the heels down thing in basic, it makes your lower body more stabel, which makes your upper body more stable, which is holding the rifle. Never experimated with it, just accepted it as fact.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:00:35 PM EST
My brother is a bit of a Fudd. I am trying to get him into EBRs.

Sometime this week we are going to go site in his hunting guns, he only shoots during hunting season. I am trying to get him to practice shooting more often, I know it would help him when he is hunting. He doesn't beleive me.

He has a Browning BAR, the semi civilian hunting gun, with a scope. It doesn't have a sling on it. It is a nice gun and it was his fathers, he is my half brother. I keep trying to get him to put a sling on it, it would help him steady his shots.


I am a relative newbie to shooting, I am currently looking for some pistol training. I am a decent marksmen when it comes to rifles, I am not uber tactical but I can hit what I need to. My dad showed me how to handle a rifle. He learned from his father, experience, and the US Army.

I am always open to instruction. Just yesterday my fiance and I went shooting. It was her first time. I let her shoot my AR15, my Khar K9, and my Taurus PT92. I had a difficult time showing her how to shoot. She has a severly crossed eye that is asthetically corrected by contacts but still turns in a bit. And it is her right eye that turns in and she is right handed. So she was right handed and right side dominant.

As I was showing here there was a guy in his 30's watching. He was very polite and not a uber tactical gun range guru. He was letting his 12 yo son shoot his new rifle. He was shooting his AR15 and 700 Remington at bowlin pins. He saw that I was having a hard time teaching her, so he offered to help. He gave her and I some pointers. He had her shooting no time flat. He later told me he was a Tennesee State Trooper, he whiped out the ID to prove it too. He was a nice guy. I was shooting my new Glock 22, which I have had a hard time getting use to shooting. He gave me some pointers and coaching on that too. Him and I had a little competition with my PT92 on the Bowling Pins, it was fun. I asked if he would be interested in coaching somone in defensive pistol shooting, I gladly would have paid him. He declined, maybe he will get an intrest in it and start a side business. He was a good shot, polite, and an awesome teacher.

So no errors on that trip, just a really friendly THP officer.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:38:59 PM EST
What's the big deal with chicken wings? As I recall that's a position Jeff Cooper recommends as a classic; it collapses the pectoral as you get the buttstock in. Not the best for Joe Swat, but OK for hunters.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:48:09 PM EST
I've herd the Chicken Wing is a legit shooting "stance" but i hate how it looks and think it is stupid, for what ever advatages it gives you it makes your profile bigger and you have to be clumbsyer when moving,

I also hate when people walk there actions then wonder why there gun jams
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:49:53 PM EST
mistakes?? Hell yea, people shooting guns!!! There is something wrong with people shooting guns. That is so dangerous.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:10:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spooky130:
Ok... explain the heels up thing to me? I don't get it - honest - I see the point on barrels touching the rest/hands, magazine monopods, trigger pull, etc., but not the heels thing...

Stupid things at the range... in Colorado, at a range on public land after a snow storm me and some friends were shooting. All of a sudden three or four deer wander out from behind the "backstop". My buddies decide the deer would make great targets... So, these guys start shooting between the deers' legs. Man those things were jumping about as high as I was. I was sure these guys were going to hit and kill one and some ranger/warden-type would come driving down the road. I would have left but we were about 8 miles from civilization and they were my ride...

I agree about the Elmer Fudd types. A half-dozen rounds for the year and their sight-in and practice is done!

Spooky



On the heels down thing.:

It came out of the military. It adds stability to the lower body. You want as much contact with the earth as possible. It also keeps you from getting your heels shot off. It also makes you harder to see, without those heels wiggling around.

A guy I work with this morning was telling me that he bought a Winchester shotgun, from his son in law. He told me about the conversation concerning his deer rifle. He shoots a .375 H&H. Now this is for Texas sized deer. His son in law was trying to get him to buy a smaller caliber rifle (the son in law works at a gun shop). He told me he still has the first and only box of shells he bought for the rifle. He might shoot it once a year (if he is lucky). I sure am glad we hunt in different counties.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:17:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 6:22:19 AM EST by Happyshooter]

Originally Posted By The_Alchemist:
I seem to be the only one at the range when I go. But one mistake I've seen was a guy who accidentally chambered and fried a .308 in a 7mm Mag. His gun went kaboom.



I am on the board at our gun club, but I do not go near the range anymore for sight-in days. We charge our members $5 per gun, and nons $7, to sight-in in a supervised environment (the other 48 weeks of the year it is an open range).

I saw a guy scope in on his kid's head while he was carrying the target frame down range. I called him on our safety rule and he proved it was okay to do what he was doing by pulling the trugger and working the bolt.

I have seen three guys walk down range while firing was going on.

.308 fired through a .270. When the range staff got the bolt back he waited for them to walk away (having agreed to go get the gun checked out by a smith) and chambered a .270 and shot it to prove everything was okay.

I stay the hell away from the club until deer season starts.

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:38:43 AM EST
I ran into a slew of folks sighting in, mostly muzzle loaders and bolties.

Didn't run into one problem... had open communication with them about firing, checking targets, etc.

The biggest issue I see is stance. Several chicken wings (and we arent talking hunters here) and leaning backwards...


Why people lean backwards when an object is about to shove them from the front is beyond me...


- BG
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:40:54 AM EST
Here's my scenario..just happened yesterday at my local range.

I show up with my EBR (FAL to be exact.) Brought my scaled Mil. Silhouettes to post at 100yd. for sight in and practice to 500yd.

Elmer Dudd (..or so I thought..) over in the next bay, says "What's that thing yur shootin'?". So I tried to engage him in conversation, thinking he might be legitimately interested.

Talked with him for a while, explained the weapon to him, agreed to let him shoot it.

He assumed to prone position, racked the bolt, took the safety off and proceeded to plant all 5 rounds firmly in the 500yd. silhouette on irons. I was awestruck!

In a shy grin, he sheepishly told me that they used to test the FAL's all the time at the armory shop where he used to work.

I asked what armory did you work at?

He replied "Quantico"!

As it turned out..he gave me some great instruction on my STG. Thanks to Allen for putting a hot to trot rookie in his place. I learned alot yesterday!


Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:52:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
People leaning backwards with their arms locked shooting handguns.



Seeing this one drives me NUTS!

Happens all the time when I bring my non-shooting friends to the range. I will explain proper form repeatedly, demonstrate, and then watch as they hold the gun like it's a poisonous snake and spray rounds downrange.

"Pretend you're a vulture. Lean forward at the hips. Head down and forward. Crush grip. Focus on the front sight. Don't jerk, smoothly roll the trigger back." They'll do it once, then load a fresh mag and they're back to looking like someone shoved a stick up their ass. I usually end up putting a palm between their shoulder blades and slowly pushing them forward. Seems to help.

And if you can forget about proper form with a rifle.

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:56:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By netwt12:
One asshole commented as he passed that it was illegal to hunt with a flashlight on one's rifle. my reply was that i only hunt burgulars in my house with the rifle and the gamewarden said the light was ok.



May I use this one?

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:57:00 AM EST
Public Range?

As long as I don't have a gun pointed at me or have someone play with their firearm while I'm down range, I chalk it up as a good day.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:58:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:18:59 AM EST
What's wrong with using the mag on an AR as a mono pod? Surely it isn't as accurate as a rest, but it is going to be pretty close to laying prone on your elbows because of a 30 round magazine.

This position (mag on ground) was one of the positions that we used at the Urban rifle class (Massad Ayoob), and people were getting pretty good groups at 100 yards.

I had 1 flyer, which took my 10 shot group to 4.17", but the other 9 measured out at 2.2". This was shooting a Rock River Arms 16" with a zero magnification red dot.

Yes, it's not MOA, but it ain't bad either.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:30:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By bogz:
What's wrong with using the mag on an AR as a mono pod? Surely it isn't as accurate as a rest, but it is going to be pretty close to laying prone on your elbows because of a 30 round magazine.

This position (mag on ground) was one of the positions that we used at the Urban rifle class (Massad Ayoob), and people were getting pretty good groups at 100 yards.

I had 1 flyer, which took my 10 shot group to 4.17", but the other 9 measured out at 2.2". This was shooting a Rock River Arms 16" with a zero magnification red dot.

Yes, it's not MOA, but it ain't bad either.



You shouldn't do that because in the event of a KB, the weapon is designed to funnel the force of the explosion down the magazine well, thus blowing the floorplate and anything else in its path out the bottom of the magazine. NOT a pleasant experience, let me tell ya!



Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:37:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:12:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 12:09:08 PM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By 338winmag:
I went to Gunstock last week. Here is what I saw:

2. Bad form II
People who use the magazine of the rifle for a base. It make a great swivel base, too bad it is so unstable.



I've been shooting using my magazine as a monopod for about 3 years now and haven't had any problems with stability using an AR. I use the mag as a monopod and the use my offhand to brace against the tail of the stock. I've found it quite useful on targets at 300yds and 500yds, especially when rapid follow-up shots were desirable.

I'm also skeptical of the "What if it kabooms" line of thought. I don't see any good reason not to use a good technique based on the less than 0.1% probability that your rifle is going to explode on you.


3. Wrap around trigger fingers. 'nuff said.


Generally I would agree with this; but I'd also point out that this is a valid technique for some styles of shooting (especially rapid, close-in shooting - though it works at longer distances as well). I was first introduced to this by a Marine Force Recon turned instructor named Chris who taught it as part of a close-range CQB style course. He advocated sticking as much of your finger as you could get through the trigger guard comfortably.


4. People who try to compensate for poor marksmanship with technology. If you are a shitty shot with iron sights, you will still be a shitty shot with a thousand dollar optic on top of that rifle. Most people don't realize that the best thing you could spend your money on with a rifle is good training, and more practice ammunition. Throw a couple of competitions in there just to keep you humble.


Yes, for the most part; but a $350 Aimpoint will make better marksman of most people than $350 of ammo and no instruction will. Good training is key though and is almost always better than the monetary equivalent in gadgetry. However, if you want to see improvements fast, optics do give an improvement and the imrpovement is greater to those who know the least.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:16:23 AM EST
I think it is laughable when you see the guy with all the latest and greatest guns and accesories but doesn't really know how to use them. You can tell the guy went and spent thousands of dollars on these guns but just bought what he thought was cool or tactical but has no idea what he has or how to use the weapons. That is very lame in my opinion.
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