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Posted: 8/26/2004 9:38:39 AM EST
Do shotguns really have a place in modern warfare anymore?The Benelli M4 is a good example.Made for combat but is it really being used in combat?What do you guys think,should soldiers(not standard but small quanties) be issued shotguns?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:40:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:44:30 AM EST
Shotguns are special application weapons. In MOUT they are good for door openers. In the less lethal (crowd control) role, they work well at shooting less than lethal rounds, for some reason buck shot was in this categories when I went to the SOTG less than lethal course. Other than that shotguns are pretty much restricted to sentry duty and as an ersatz long arm for those who didn't get issued a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:44:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 9:46:20 AM EST by Yojimbo]
What Lumpy and STLRN said.

It's great for pissing off the trap and skeet crowd.

"Pull"! Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:49:09 AM EST
So,there isnt really a place for shotguns besides

1.door breaching
2.pissing off the Fudds

I suppose it does piss off trap shhoters when ypu bring a weapon like that to the range.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:51:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:54:57 AM EST
From my perspective they still are very effective in their limited range. I like having one for home defense. Imagine you have your family gathered in your safe room and are sitting inside facing the only entry door with a weapon at the ready. My first choice would be my trusty 12 gauge pump shotgun with a chamber and magazine full of 00 buck, a couple slugs in the on gun carrier. Come and get some thugs!

But I see very limited military application for the shotgun. Tunnel searches perhaps, and door breaching as Lumpy mentioned.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:56:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
What Lumpy and STLRN said.

It's great for pissing off the trap and skeet crowd.

"Pull"! Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...





Now that is some funny shit, true yet funny!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:57:36 AM EST
I beg to differ.

My neighbor/hunting buddy is a two tour Vietnam Marine and he carried an 12ga for a while and said it worked as good as anything in dense cover.

He said he was lucky-he carried the shotgun during the transitional period between the M14 and M16 so he didn't have to "experience" the early problems encountered with the M16. He did eventually go to an M16 when his unit was moved to a more open area.

He thinks the M14 was great and the M16 was so-so.

So I guess, given a certain situation, the shotgun could have a place in combat.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:11:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:13:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:14:54 AM EST by markm]
I'm always amazed at how many people here DON'T use the Carbean for Home Defense, and opt for the Scattergun.

What's the AR? A toy for bump firing?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:19:10 AM EST
Less-lethal (beanbags, stingballs, noise rounds, etc.)
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:19:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:24:10 AM EST by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By BillSP1:
Imagine you have your family gathered in your safe room and are sitting inside facing the only entry door with a weapon at the ready.




Imagine NOT having everyone in the safe room yet and having to engage.

Worse yet, imagine the bad guy having gotten to one of your loved ones before you did.




This is exactly why my AR carbine is my home dfense weapon. I have 3 kids spread out over 4 bedrooms on the 2nd floor sometimes they may be sleeping on the first floor too...

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:20:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By tweeter:
Less-lethal (beanbags, stingballs, noise rounds, etc.)



I'm not here to be less lethal!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:24:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:
Do shotguns really have a place in modern warfare anymore?The Benelli M4 is a good example.Made for combat but is it really being used in combat?What do you guys think,should soldiers(not standard but small quanties) be issued shotguns?



My unit was issued shotguns (the old Winchester 1200s). Typically we had one guy per squad carry the shotgun while on foot patrol. I carried it most of the time for my squad. We also would have one or two shotguns when we did raids on houses to look for weapons. The SAW is a little heavy and unwiedly to use in raids.
The shotgun does well at short ranges, like in a hallway or small street.

Curiously, the Iraqis don't seem to recognize the shotgun in the use of combat. Most of the Iraqis, inculding the police officers we were training kept asking me how many birds did I shoot down, etc. They don't seem to know about buckshot. The cops didn't believe us when we told them that you can use it on people.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:28:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:31:05 AM EST by joker581]

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm always amazed at how many people here DON'T use the Carbean for Home Defense, and opt for the Scattergun.

What's the AR? A toy for bump firing?

I live in a duplex. Even though I live alone, I have a nice young newlywed couple on the other side of my wall. I can sit on my bed and shoot someone coming through my front door, and still fuck them up with birdshot. There is no space in my house that I couldn't kill someone with a #8 load. I have a FAL ready to go if shit gets really deep, but I doubt it will ever come to that.

ETA: Before you try to lecture me about birdshot for defense, I use 00 buckshot.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:34:16 AM EST
I have seen quite alot of shotgun images from Iraq, So theres still a purpose. Also you dont need to be a good shot to hit something. Just keep firing until it falls.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:38:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:39:26 AM EST by steenkybastage]

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By BillSP1:
Imagine you have your family gathered in your safe room and are sitting inside facing the only entry door with a weapon at the ready.




Imagine NOT having everyone in the safe room yet and having to engage.

Worse yet, imagine the bad guy having gotten to one of your loved ones before you did.




This is exactly why my AR carbine is my home dfense weapon. I have 3 kids spread out over 4 bedrooms on the 2nd floor sometimes they may be sleeping on the first floor too...




+ =
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:41:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Also you dont need to be a good shot to hit something. Just keep firing until it falls.



I've always loved this enlightened argument.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:24:12 AM EST
You do need skill and to aim to hit stuff with a shotgun.BTW,I asked cause I have seen ZERO shotguns in Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:29:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 11:29:57 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:08:39 AM EST
Thanks for the pic Lumpy.Is that the M4 or the M3 Super 90?Or is it some other shotgun?
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:46:38 AM EST
thats a pump gun...

mossy or 870...with a surefire.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:55:10 AM EST
Just because they aren't being used in high numbers NOW, in a DESERT, doesn't mean they're not suited for a combat role. Change environments and the shottie can be very appealing!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:13:32 AM EST
I think they do - for close quarters in buildings and the field. In every other war they have been praised by then men who used them.

I would think in Iraq they would be good for when raiding a building. Not much use on the desert though - thats true.

I can see thier application in the woods/jungle though.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:16:16 AM EST
Maybe a shorty would work here.

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:19:07 AM EST
Frankly, for CQB, a shotgun is a damn fine weapon.

Breaching rounds, less-lethal rounds, and everyones favorite - buckshot!

Shotguns still have their place. Jungle terrain or heavy urban areas would be great for a shotgun. Open desert, grasslands, or light forest - you are better off with a rifle.

Av.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:20:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 10:21:11 AM EST by JeffersonDarcy]

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Maybe a shorty would work here.





you ever had your shit pushed in?
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:22:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 10:23:01 AM EST by JeffersonDarcy]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:
You do need skill and to aim to hit stuff with a shotgun.BTW,I asked cause I have seen ZERO shotguns in Iraq.



For what its worth, from my news photos thread today out of Najaf:




does that shotgun have a stock? doesnt look like it.


Anyone ever shoot one of those shotguns with no stock and just a pistol grip? seems like the recoil would be nasty.....
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:25:42 AM EST
The sentries or gate guards on base had them some of the time.

Thats alot of lead from one guy, if needed, for tires and such...


Semper Fi
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:26:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:42:45 AM EST
I just got this...



ALS 2100 Home Security
The ALS Home Security model will help you keep your home and family safe from violent intruders. Bolt and shell carrier release button are blackened.(

Semi-auto 12 gauge 5+1 VERY light. $300 +/- out the door (if you can find them). Lots of choke/bbl options. Freakin' SWEET!!!
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:43:47 AM EST
Considering a detchable box magazine fed select fire shotgun.
Ambush/Counterambush
Gate gaurd
Jungle Warfare (GBR experiences in Borneo?/ our own SF operators in Viet Nam)
Urban warfare
Area saturation (only the m134 can saturate an area, not that portable)
Some of the above can be fulfilled with a semi or a few with a pump.
Just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:55:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Maybe a shorty would work here.

www.cineclub.de/images/2001/training_day_4.jpg



What kinda beer dos ese's be drinkin?


Link Posted: 8/27/2004 1:26:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
Maybe a shorty would work here.

www.cineclub.de/images/2001/training_day_4.jpg



That was one scary scene...


Bigfeet
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:27:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By JarheadChiro:
The sentries or gate guards on base had them some of the time.

Thats alot of lead from one guy, if needed, for tires and such...


Semper Fi



8 shots of 00Buck, is 72, .33 cal lead pellets. Devestating is putting it mildly.


Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:34:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm always amazed at how many people here DON'T use the Carbean for Home Defense, and opt for the Scattergun.

What's the AR? A toy for bump firing?

I live in a duplex. Even though I live alone, I have a nice young newlywed couple on the other side of my wall. I can sit on my bed and shoot someone coming through my front door, and still fuck them up with birdshot. There is no space in my house that I couldn't kill someone with a #8 load. I have a FAL ready to go if shit gets really deep, but I doubt it will ever come to that.

ETA: Before you try to lecture me about birdshot for defense, I use 00 buckshot.



I know a man who is in prison for killing a guy with "birdshot".
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:39:37 PM EST
Now I know everybody here will tell me a 12 guage slug just is not enough to put a man down!!

It works pretty good with Big Bears and some little men will feel its power!!


I prefer a S&W 916 with S&B double ought,allways some nice saboted slugs right behind it!!!


I don't know some thing about a twelveguage always makes me feel warm and cuddly all over!!

Bob
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:46:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By gamesniper:
I beg to differ.

My neighbor/hunting buddy is a two tour Vietnam Marine and he carried an 12ga for a while and said it worked as good as anything in dense cover.

He said he was lucky-he carried the shotgun during the transitional period between the M14 and M16 so he didn't have to "experience" the early problems encountered with the M16. He did eventually go to an M16 when his unit was moved to a more open area.

He thinks the M14 was great and the M16 was so-so.

So I guess, given a certain situation, the shotgun could have a place in combat.



Concealment, not cover.

Shotguns, can bring signifigant firepower into CQB.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:57:43 PM EST
In my opinion, the greatest assest of a shotgun, particularly a pump gun, is it's psycological effect on a BG in the event you confront one face to face prior to the shooting starting.

If you hear a window break, grab your pump gun, and observe a BG or 2 cleaning up your entertainment center, or perhaps something much more sinister, that universally recognized sound of racking a shell will be a powerful deterent to any further displacement of your property or potential threats to you and your families safety.

However, my choice is definately an AR based carbine, based on my reading of ballistics experiments.

And nobody can deny the best HD weapon is a good dog.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:56:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By JohnBlade23:

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By markm:
I'm always amazed at how many people here DON'T use the Carbean for Home Defense, and opt for the Scattergun.

What's the AR? A toy for bump firing?

I live in a duplex. Even though I live alone, I have a nice young newlywed couple on the other side of my wall. I can sit on my bed and shoot someone coming through my front door, and still fuck them up with birdshot. There is no space in my house that I couldn't kill someone with a #8 load. I have a FAL ready to go if shit gets really deep, but I doubt it will ever come to that.

ETA: Before you try to lecture me about birdshot for defense, I use 00 buckshot.



I know a man who is in prison for killing a guy with "birdshot".

It will definatly get the job done.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:04:35 PM EST
I remember reading stories during the initial invasion that referenced a lot of shotgun combat.

They may have been given to the boys for breeching duty, but you can be damn sure that the boys aren't just using them for that.

Hell would you?

Think about hte situations of all those officers with m9's made unserviceable due to bad magazines, think of all those grunts who are grousing because of the added wieght of thier breeching kit...

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Breeching weapons are used and used often in combat, I'd bet the same that they are effective and well loved, and lastly that the Brass hates the idea.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:16:06 PM EST
I just bought a Saiga 12. Picked it up yesterday and cleaned it. Bought a cheapo skeet thrower (30 bucks from Academy) and a box of clays today after class. Tomorrow I break 'er in!

The nice thing is, the stock is held to the reciever by two screws, so it looks easy to convert it to a pistol grip/ folding stock style. Which I will do after the awb sunsets.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:21:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
The nice thing is, the stock is held to the reciever by two screws, so it looks easy to convert it to a pistol grip/ folding stock style. Which I will do after the awb sunsets.

Isn't the trigger all the way at the back of the reciever? You would have to move it forward in order to place the pistol grip. At least, that is the case with Saiga rifles.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:26:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:32:43 PM EST
Yes, dammit, you're right. the trigger is all the way at the back of the receiver. In fact, the trigger guard's rear screw is the same screw on the bottom that holds the stock on.

I'll post pics if someone could point me to a free picture hoster thingy...
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:37:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By JeffersonDarcy:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By TGorsk08:
You do need skill and to aim to hit stuff with a shotgun.BTW,I asked cause I have seen ZERO shotguns in Iraq.



For what its worth, from my news photos thread today out of Najaf:

us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040826/capt.mac10208261520.iraq_mac102.jpg



does that shotgun have a stock? doesnt look like it.


Anyone ever shoot one of those shotguns with no stock and just a pistol grip? seems like the recoil would be nasty.....


It looks like a Mossberg, 590.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:39:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Yes, dammit, you're right. the trigger is all the way at the back of the receiver. In fact, the trigger guard's rear screw is the same screw on the bottom that holds the stock on.

I'll post pics if someone could point me to a free picture hoster thingy...

The conversion can still be done either at home, or by a professional.* There are several sites with more details, AK-47.net is one of them. You may also check into US parts, and other legality issues before going further with it.

* I am assuming that this will be done within compliance to all Federal and State gun laws.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:47:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:48:23 PM EST
JTAC,

I am currently acquiring all my US compliant parts for my Saiga - 12 conversion once the AWB expires. This will allow me to be legal in regards to 922(r) of the 1989 import ban.

ACE makes a great tube folder and the Tapco AK folder works great ! Once I have all the proper items I can finally bolt it all together once the AWB expires....
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:09:06 PM EST
hey usmc,

What parts exactly are you planning on replacing?

I was thinking fire control group (3) + US folding stock+ custom pistol grip + custom forearm would bring the number of russian parts down to 10.

any advice you could gimmie would be much appreciated.
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